[Udi]

Try to think for a second and tell me what the unchangeable differences on a wc bike are!

Without a frame redesign there are a number of parameters you can't influence significantly:
- Axle path (thus bump absorption, and acceleration)
- Antisquat profile (thus acceleration)
- Instant centre (thus braking)

These parameters vary greatly from bike to bike, and as I've said before, changing frame geometry and damper setup cannot significantly compensate or change these parameters.

Even kinematiks could be changed if the manufacturer wants to.

Therein lies the golden point that you (and only you) seem to be unable to understand. Not every manufacturer understands these fine elements and:
a) Their effects on handling / performance
b) How to control them as independently as possible
c) Their influence on other elements

Every design choice is a compromise, but it is very difficult to make the best compromise if you don't understand these aspects and their interactions. You are giving the bike industry too much credit if you think there are more than a handful of bicycle-industry engineers who understand this stuff 100%. Unfortunately most of these people end up in other industries that better reward their skills.

No one is saying this is the most significant differentiator of race results - that is merely the straw man you build on a regular basis. However it can indeed change results by more than the difference between the top three placings. There are seconds to be saved in this stuff, and races are won and lost by those same seconds on a regular basis.

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

Yeah the bike doesn't matter. That's why Gwin first changed frame size, then spesh made a custom rear end for him. They do it to give us something to talk to.

This is what I was thinking the whole time I was reading this thread. Not saying the bike is the whole problem, but if Gwin thought it was just him having an off couple races, I doubt he'd have them changing sizes or making custom stays...

 

[bismojo]

Brendog! How can he be that fast with 'custom' flat tire

 

[tabletop84]

Without a frame redesign there are a number of parameters you can't influence significantly:
- Axle path (thus bump absorption, and acceleration)
- Antisquat profile (thus acceleration)
- Instant centre (thus braking)

These parameters vary greatly from bike to bike, and as I've said before, changing frame geometry and damper setup cannot significantly compensate or change these parameters.



Therein lies the golden point that you (and only you) seem to be unable to understand. Not every manufacturer understands these fine elements and:
a) Their effects on handling / performance
b) How to control them as independently as possible
c) Their influence on other elements

Every design choice is a compromise, but it is very difficult to make the best compromise if you don't understand these aspects and their interactions. You are giving the bike industry too much credit if you think there are more than a handful of bicycle-industry engineers who understand this stuff 100%. Unfortunately most of these people end up in other industries that better reward their skills.

No one is saying this is the most significant differentiator of race results - that is merely the straw man you build on a regular basis. However it can indeed change results by more than the difference between the top three placings. There are seconds to be saved in this stuff, and races are won and lost by those same seconds on a regular basis.

I just try to be the voice of reason in threads full of speculations about the demise of the outperformer of two seasons all being about a bike which certainly isn't 'bad' in any way. The changed sizes and chainstays on his bike doesn't necessarily mean that the issue is the frame alone. If this would be true we might see a major improvement.

Then: which bikes specifically on the wc circuit do you mean which have a sub par compromise in terms of kinematiks?

 

[epic]

So what sites does everyone go to for decent footage?

I'm a dirtTV and Vital-slideshow kinda guy, but I wonder if there's other gems out there that I might be missing?

Tri-ride is good - wish they were still doing vids though.

 

[ianjenn]

Every design choice is a compromise, but it is very difficult to make the best compromise if you don't understand these aspects and their interactions. You are giving the bike industry too much credit if you think there are more than a handful of bicycle-industry engineers who understand this stuff 100%. Unfortunately most of these people end up in other industries that better reward their skills.

Exactly on point. So I went through 4-6 years of school , hard school and you want to start me at what!

Having a starting pay of $45K versus says $70K would have a major influence on my job seeking as well. The 2-3 free bikes would be made up for in 2-3 months of work.

 

[sethimus]

Come on Sam!!!!!one!! Would be stoked beyond even a pokey bum wank if Sam smashed the field.

you would be what?

 

[Kanye West]

Every design choice is a compromise, but it is very difficult to make the best compromise if you don't understand these aspects and their interactions. You are giving the bike industry too much credit if you think there are more than a handful of bicycle-industry engineers who understand this stuff 100%. Unfortunately most of these people end up in other industries that better reward their skills.

TROLLOLOLOLOLOL.

It's funny, I meet some VERY competent people in the aerospace industry who truly get vehicle dynamics (including bicycle suspension) at a level that would be far in excess of what most bike companies employ as engineers.

If they wanted to work for dog-sitting/cat-grooming wages, they would work in the bike industry. Or they could make real money, work normal people hours, and buy the bikes, cars, houses, and trips they want to.

 

[Tomasis]

Hart is like 5'9" or so, not exactly short. He's light which may make him look smaller.

Gwin is 5'10" and so is Sam Hill. Nico Vouilloz is 5'9", same as Hart. Between those 3 you have more world cup and World Champs wins than the combination of Peaty, Minaar and Kovarik (well known tall guys with wins to their name). All 6 are great racers and I'd love to blame the fact that I'm vertically challenged as the reason why I'm not fast but being the same height as Nico and Hart I don't have much to hang my hat on do I?

I've rechecked heights, weights. I always thought that Hart is short as Brosnan, my bad. Still I dont see super short guys like under 170cm (5"3?) being wc champions?

I noticed Bulldog is 170cm, is it typo? also Sam hill weighs 83 kg (180lbs?), also typo? Im about tall as Sam Hill, Vouiloz but I weigh 10kg less than Hill. Lopez weighs the same but seemed to have loads of muscles so he should be much heavier than me. I think I dont trust the data on internet

I noticed also those tall guys use less "body language" while riding. Could it be tire gripe losing earlier compared to lighter riders? Still tall guys are f** fast! Seemed it requires less effort for them

 

[Tomasis]

To think that frame design and suspension kinematics don't play a significant part in a sport that is won and lost by 0.046 of a second is incredibly short-sighted. I've said it in these threads before.

But in more important news, our boy's back. F**k yeah!

Long live dual, multi progression linkages!

Linear sucks!

Sam hill!

 

[Tomasis]

And for the record, Vouilloz did more than alright in his rally racing career considering what he did prior to racing cars...Also your argument about moto racer is BS.I know a bunch of moto riders that can ride **** on a DH bike..Sure some kill it on the jumps and stuff but their skill does not always translate that well when things get gnarly and steep

Horses for courses. of course

IRC? Never mind. I had WRC in my thoughts.

It is like to let Rossi or Schumacher to compete in F2000 or second level MC competition. 5 sec. difference could be HUGE and it'd require whole lifetime training to gain those 5 sec.

If I had luck ride and slower 5 sec than Sam Hill, I'd not believe that Im worth to compete at Wc level then.

There is too fierce competition to get everything from multiple disciplines of sport. That happens rarely when a human being gets WC titles at multiple disciplines.

You'd say same that DH riders wouldnt dare take long jumps. and vice versa.

Skills is not all. Balls are required too.

 

[trib]

These threads are constant reminders that breaks between races are bad.

 

[Tomasis]

These threads are constant reminders that breaks between races are bad.

Im sure the whole internet is crap now im going out to ride...

 

['size]

start list/times:

http://62.50.72.82/uciroot/wcmtb/2013/DH_StartList.aspx?id=44759&language=eng&code=FI

 

[norbar]

I just try to be the voice of reason in threads full of speculations about the demise of the outperformer of two seasons all being about a bike which certainly isn't 'bad' in any way. The changed sizes and chainstays on his bike doesn't necessarily mean that the issue is the frame alone. If this would be true we might see a major improvement.

Then: which bikes specifically on the wc circuit do you mean which have a sub par compromise in terms of kinematiks?

You are not a voice of reason. You are just some guy with no clue about bike design who guessed that bikes don't matter and decided to convince everyone that your guesswork is correct when you don't even try to show any facts to support your crazy theory.

Why would they change the bike if they thought it was ok? Again to make us talk?

 

[Kevin]

This thread makes me wanna crap outta my mouth.

 

[trib]

Juniors has been very good this year, three different winners and quite a jumbled top 5. No one rider dominating. Should make for some very exciting racing in about 5 years time

 

[Sandro]

This thread makes me wanna crap outta my mouth.

Human Centipede 3: Full Reversal?

Gotta give props to Red Bull: tons of cameras on a course that's pretty much entirely in the woods. In the freecaster days we would have had 3 crappy camera positions max.

 

[William42]

Does gwin race in the top 20 because he's protected or will he just get started in his regular spot that he qualified? I'd like to see him race, but it looks like we might not get to?

Is anybody a little bit bummed to be watching a replay of the womens race instead of the potential winner (figure gwin, smith, and mcdonald all have a pretty fighting chance despite poor qualifiers)

edit: or am I misremembering and they play the top 30 men, not top 20?

 

[Da Peach]

top 30

 

[trib]

live timing. Beaumont in 2nd.

http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU0MjY

 

[William42]

oh good. Also, the womens field is boring. 30 second gap in the top 10? Anybody know what needs to change to develop the sport? I'd be more interested in watching if there were 6-7 people capable of being on top on any given race, rather then 1-2, and sometimes a 3rd if they're having a great day.

 

[trib]

CG announces retirement from WC racing

 

[norbar]

Richie Rude is a bit off pace this season.

 

[bismojo]

looks like 440mm is good number for swing arm.. 4:18

 

[Da Peach]

that was quite a crash...

 

[trib]

Cam Cole?

not watching it live but live timing shows he was first, second at second split, then dnf...sounds brutal

 

[Da Peach]

smiiiiiith

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

looks like 440mm is good number for swing arm.. 4:18

If you are content on finishing somewhere in the teens or twenties. Indeed it is.

Edit: Aaron looks like he is about to cry. I really feel for the poor guy. Specialized should really go and build a bike that is competitive.

 

[epic]

Richie Rude is a bit off pace this season.

a bit off the pace? OK - a bit, but 21st in guali seems pretty good to me.

 

[epic]

So... next week, Gwin on med with custom shortened stays.

 

[trib]

if only it was like the good old days and everyone rode an M1 with different stickers on it

 

[norbar]

a bit off the pace? OK - a bit, but 21st in guali seems pretty good to me.

Look at live timing. His results this year are lower than last year. Maybe I jumped on the hype train to early but expected him to be a constant top20 finisher this year.

 

[epic]

Look at live timing.

Oh... bummer, he hasn't been on the feed yet.

 

[William42]

Cam Cole?

not watching it live but live timing shows he was first, second at second split, then dnf...sounds brutal

it was brutal. one of the moral brutal crashes i've seen in awhile.

 

[William42]

yeah, whatever is going on for gwin doesn't seem to be working. Bummed out for him.

 

[trib]

Cam really needs a break. So fast, seemingly a really nice guy, can't seem to quite get the full runs he deserves

 

[CBJ]

Cam really needs a break. So fast, seemingly a really nice guy, can't seem to quite get the full runs he deserves

Maybe he needs to learn from Steve Smith who seems to have done the opposite.

 

[trib]

maybe it's all in the moustache

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

maybe it's all in the moustache

Thats exactly what I was contemplating in the mean time... Perhaps Gwinn's secret to victory was having a set of perfectly groomed facial hair around.