Video of a cop shooting an axe wielding suspect 10 times
- Thread starter sanjuro
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No complaints from me on that one.
the video doesn't show everything....
If I was trying to sue the cop for wrongful death, I'd have to go with
1) the cops precipitating the incident by closing in on him to create a situation in which they could gleefully go about shooting the "victim," carrying only a simple hand tool and for whose mental state they clearly had no regard; and
2) what the video clearly doesn't show, which is what the subject was doing on the ground behind the car after the first cluster of shots. I'd characterize the second group of shots as a malicious execution, delivered to a helpless-but-still-living-man who was the victim of a police mentality which celebrates excessive violence and revels in any chance to take life.
Of course, then I'd be a scumbag hearse-chasing attorney...most thankfully I'm not.
Would be interesting to hear the cop's take on why he fired a second set of shots. You can pretty much break this one incident into two separate, related uses of force. Number of shots fired in each burst is fairly irrelevant...fire until the you perceive the threat to be stopped, which with a handgun, is usually quite a few times.
Subject simply trying to get back up with weapon in hand would probably be enough to justify shooting him again.
And if that was a taser to the neck he took and kept walking like that, I gotta think the taser malfunctioned...even if you can take the pain, I thought the point of a taser was involuntary muscle contraction. Maybe it was pepper spray? Some people can shrug that off entirely. Sure looked like he ripped taser probes out of his neck by the look of his gesture, though. (Manimal? Comment?)
1) the cops precipitating the incident by closing in on him to create a situation in which they could gleefully go about shooting the "victim," carrying only a simple hand tool and for whose mental state they clearly had no regard; and
2) what the video clearly doesn't show, which is what the subject was doing on the ground behind the car after the first cluster of shots. I'd characterize the second group of shots as a malicious execution, delivered to a helpless-but-still-living-man who was the victim of a police mentality which celebrates excessive violence and revels in any chance to take life.
Of course, then I'd be a scumbag hearse-chasing attorney...most thankfully I'm not.
Would be interesting to hear the cop's take on why he fired a second set of shots. You can pretty much break this one incident into two separate, related uses of force. Number of shots fired in each burst is fairly irrelevant...fire until the you perceive the threat to be stopped, which with a handgun, is usually quite a few times.
Subject simply trying to get back up with weapon in hand would probably be enough to justify shooting him again.
And if that was a taser to the neck he took and kept walking like that, I gotta think the taser malfunctioned...even if you can take the pain, I thought the point of a taser was involuntary muscle contraction. Maybe it was pepper spray? Some people can shrug that off entirely. Sure looked like he ripped taser probes out of his neck by the look of his gesture, though. (Manimal? Comment?)
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It WAS outside a Carls Jr...
My questions.
- Deadly force used with a working dog on scene? Why no release of dog? I didnt hear any warning regarding the dog given...
- Did not see a single meancing movement by the suspect. What went on inside the Carls Jr?
- Alot of bystanders on scene too...if he wasnt presenting a threat to anyone, was an effort made to talk him down?
- I gotta question shot placement (Center mass...stop the threat.) and occifer experience.
--What was the on scene senior guy directing? What were the verbal directions given?
--Combine with the UoF directives of the dept...10 rds does seem a touch excessive, especially without an incapacitating shot in there somewhere...
My questions.
- Deadly force used with a working dog on scene? Why no release of dog? I didnt hear any warning regarding the dog given...
- Did not see a single meancing movement by the suspect. What went on inside the Carls Jr?
- Alot of bystanders on scene too...if he wasnt presenting a threat to anyone, was an effort made to talk him down?
- I gotta question shot placement (Center mass...stop the threat.) and occifer experience.
--What was the on scene senior guy directing? What were the verbal directions given?
--Combine with the UoF directives of the dept...10 rds does seem a touch excessive, especially without an incapacitating shot in there somewhere...
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I wouldn't put Fido at risk of death or bodily injury by allowing him to attack an axe-wielding subject. I'd sooner shoot the guy than let my partner get hurt.
And if you wouldn't release the dog on a guy with a gun prior to employing deadly force, you shouldn't need to release it on a guy wielding any other deadly weapon...I guess range is a factor in the means/opportunity scale (see my point #1 as slimy attorney) but still, clearly a deadly weapon. And the fact that the man may have been able to continue his swing towards the other officer while the dog is moving to attack speaks for immediate employment of a gun.
1, 3, 10 rounds, doesn't really matter, especially when you consider how they were basically just 2 groups of shots. "Why'd you shoot him 10 times, officer?" "Ran out of ammo..."
Is release of the dog considered deadly force? I'd think not, but I've never used dogs other than bomb search dogs.
Agree that the scene looked like a cluster****, but I'm not in possession of the facts leading up to it, so can't criticize too much for that without knowing. And it of course does not change the ultimate fact that the dude swung a deadly weapon at another person and cop stopped the threat using an appropriate application of force. They apparently even tried less-lethal means first.
Personally, were I on a jury, I would be interested more in the second group of shots. When the suspect turned on the cop with the axe, IMHO the first group of shots = totally justified.
As one who has worked with and trained MWDs...that dog is the first one to go. Like it or not, he is a tool and its better to let him eat a guy up then to shoot the guy up. They are considered less than lethal force (At least by the military...), and are a potent force multiplier.
And also not trying to Monday morning QB these guys, but space and time is your friend. I saw no (Not saying it wasnt present...) direct threat...just a guy with a tool. There is a duty to protect all, including the suspect. Like I said...I want to know more of the background on this.
lead pipe. axe. same thing
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8515794
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8515794
putting the dog at risk of getting clubbed was probably the reason
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What part of THE DOG IS A TOOL OF THE LEO TO HELP HIM AVOID GETTING SHOT/BEATEN/STABBED etc dont you understand? Why else would you take away one hand of teh patrol officer to hold the leash? Why take the trouble of getting Rin Tin Tin out of the car if you arent going to let him get a bite?
Dude got what he had coming but I do question the officers judgment.
Why get within axe rang of the guy in the first place?
Also this...
Why get within axe rang of the guy in the first place?
Also this...
A simple hand tool?
I'm always curious to know how much damage should an officer take before firing his gun? If his partner got hit leg or the arm with the axe, don't shoot, but if he swings for the face...
because i could give two fvcks about the officer.
I know police dog procedures...this situation was perfect for an aggresive, handler protection trained(Attack...) dog. If you have never caught a dog on a wrap, or otherwise seen their power and precision, you should. It will totally change the way look at them. I have seen 70 lb Belgian Malinois throw 220 lb men around like rag dolls.
I need to know the rest of the story...going to google...
Edit: the first 3 google hits are all RM...he swung at an officer. Another shot him 5 times, and then he took another 5 slugs while on the ground. How much of a threat did he pose on the ground? I see a wrongful death lawsuit coming.
I need to know the rest of the story...going to google...
Edit: the first 3 google hits are all RM...he swung at an officer. Another shot him 5 times, and then he took another 5 slugs while on the ground. How much of a threat did he pose on the ground? I see a wrongful death lawsuit coming.
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I guess so about the wrongful death suit. I figure the first 5 did him in, the second 5 were just the heat of the moment.
If you turn on a cop (or anyone else holding a gun) with a gardening tool and he shoots you enough times to kill you, (plus a few extra) ....too bad for you.
With the cost of ammo these days, the dept should send the perps family an invoice.
i see darwin making a easy pick up...
No damage whatsoever. The standard is a reasonable belief that the threat can cause death or serious bodily harm. A hammer, a screwdriver, whatever, can do that. What's important to consider with smaller tools, however, is range. And I do think the officers here could have stayed further away. (Edit: Not that they're required to...their duties to protect the public and public order certainly give them authority to move in and apprehend a violent offender or vandal. Said vandal's choice to make a deadly threat to the officers in the course of these duties is his own choice. So my slimy attorney point #1 is a crock, but still something that'll be slung in court for sure. I vehemently disagree with JohnE that they have a duty to "protect" the subject. The only time they take on that duty is once he's in custody.)
In training (back when I did this sort of thing), we had a simulated situation with a guy wielding a long-handled shovel, inside a fenced front-yardish area. We stayed outside range of the shovel, told him to drop it. My partner covered with a drawn handgun while I talked to him. He failed to respond, raised the shovel into a batting stance. I pepper-sprayed him. He went down, scenario ended. During debrief, they wanted to know why we hadn't shot him.
The point for the trainers was not that pepper spray wasn't an option, but that we understood deadly force was also an immediate option in the situation without need for any escalation.
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So what I said was true...threaten a cop, get shot, tough titty.
Of course I was being factious with my point, but I know a lot of people who think cops can disarm criminals with a whisper, or they should just shoot them in the leg.
I hope one of those people will challenge me, and I'll get a wooden spoon from the kitchen and I will casually hold it out and say why don't you take it away from me. And I will proceed to jump on their back and thrash them after they grab the spoon.
multiple miggs was known to sling web up to 10'
and don't even get me started w/ sanjuro & his throwing stars
Whoa, whoa. No one said we were talking about Asians here. TOTALLY different set of rules.
Agree to disagree...remember, I do this sort of thing too. Have you ever responded to a domestic or fight with 2 armed subjects? Did you/would you let them fight it out and apprehend the winner? We havent seen the rest of the video or gotten an after action report, so we are just second guessing...and we can what if this to death...but what if someone came out of the restaraunt after the subject? Then where odes your priority lay? And dependant on the jurisdiction, "custody" can start as soon as you arrive on scene and announce yourself as an LEO...an attempt to take the subject into custody is as good as physical custody.
Looking at intent, capability and opportunity, they were all present. BUT, the Cops had numbers, time and less than lethal options available. If you can, let the guy wear himself out swinging the axe...he aint Superman. Then bum rush him. Any try at talking him down? Taking a life should always be the last resort...I would really like to read the reports on this.
...and I still wonder why Phydeaux didnt engage.
Whats more, AFAIK, there was no attempt made at a proper Weaver stance...
Guy with an axe went after an officer, other officer made sure to put him down. You present deadly force, they use it.
Questions?
Questions?