[SLAYER2003]

Here is a pic of my build last night. Sorry for the bad pic, but it was about 11:00 pm when we were this far so it was dark outside.

We got her all together very smooth until the drivetrain. I am just using the standard top pull derailer and not messing with the e-type stuff and included etype adaptor clamp.

While adjusting the derailers and setting up the drivetrain, we found no possible way to cycle it through all the gears while on the stand. I have achieved optimum chainline which is right on with the recommended 128mm BB.

The problem is going to the smallest rear gear while in the granny front and having the chain rubbing the bottom of the derailer cage. This combination will be rarely used of course, but it is still nice to be able to run it through all of the gears and make sure it will work smooth while setting or tuning derailers and shifters and such.

While sitting or riding the bike, the bike sags so much that all of this is gone and I am able to use this combination fine it would appear. Is this how this is supposed to be or am I missing something?

This is fine if this is how it is supposed to be, but I am curious if this is just a VPP issue with the linkages lowering the rear so much until it is being sat upon or if other DH type bikes have this same kind of thing. With a single ring up front this is a non issue, but this bike is capable of handling three rings.

 

[bushwacker]

The last f.derailler I bought had a statement in the instructions which said that there would be clearance issues using all possible gear combinations.

 

[Incubus]

That's normal. I have a 24 tooth granny ring and get the same rubbing.

sexy bike

 

[Castle]

you got it man, Shimano is working on a new front der. made for longer travel bikes. This is a problem you will run into no matter what you do until we can get our hands on that longer front der. It's only a problem in the stand not on the trails as you've already said.

edit: You'll need to get some more rotation on that guide!! It wont do any good when you sit into the travel left how it is. You should be able to add a 2-2.5mm b.b. spacer to push the guide plate out to clear the lower most pivot. You will run into a lil bit of a problem hitting the Roller Guard Spacer Plates on the chainstay as well, if you have a dremel you can take that off (just the plastic) and make a nice round edge that will tuck in there and help you get alot beter rotation on the guide. (don't go too far because the chain will drag on the bottom of the chainstay, you'll see when you get in there)


btw. I had the same issues on a Big Hit DH with a front der. set up.....


Sweet Rig!!!!! Bling!!

 

[Rik]

Wanting to be able to use extreme crossover combinations is asking for trouble down the road. It's normal for rubbing, even moreso when you unweight the bike. Don't worry about it too much, as long as you can use little ring with say the top 4-5 sprockets without any dramas, that's how it should be.

 

[Repack]

While sitting or riding the bike, the bike sags so much that all of this is gone and I am able to use this combination fine it would appear. Is this how this is supposed to be or am I missing something?

Its not a good idea, but you are right. The sever bends where the chain comes off of the f ring and read cogs will wear out you chain very quickly, which will in turn kill the rest of your drive train.

 

[SLAYER2003]

Hey thanks for the replies, comments and asnwers.

Here are some updates for those interested or are planning on building one.
We tried many combos to get everything working just right. After getting the shifting issues and chainline and stuff worked out, we had another problem.

Because the 128mm BB is so long, there is a big void between the EVIL guide backplate and the granny ring. This combined with the throw of the front derailer not being quite long enough lets the chain drop between the granny and the BB. This perhaps may be fixed via the etype derailer and clamp and everything associated with that, but that whole setup seems cheesy to me so I was determined to make this work.

Solution? A 118mm BB instead of 128mm. The 128 is just too long. With a 118 everything is now smooth. Chainline is perfect, no skipping chain, derailer throw is fine. Everything so far is great.

I am going on a morning ride tomorrow which consists of a pretty long and not very fun climb. I know the bullits are supposed to climb well, but that is what I had befor this and I did not enjoy this climb on that so this will be a good comparison test.

Here are some more pics.

 

[Castle]

That thur a dope bicycle! check yours pm's

 

[SLAYER2003]

Hey Castle, I replied to your PM's.



Here are some details of this 118mm BB set-up.

With the 118mm BB it looks like I have just under a chain width between the backplate and the granny. With the suggested 128mm BB this was way bigger. The derailer would not throw out that far and as a result there was just a bit too much space in the derailer cage to allow it to fall between the DRS backplate and granny ring. The chain may still be able to somehow get sucked in, but no problems yet.

For the DRS, I have two spacer plates on. Really only one spacer plate because the other one has the grooves for the bolts and needs to be used, so I have one in addition to this one.

There is an issue with the rotation of the guide not being able to rotate all the way to optimum position because it hits the chainstay/lower pivot. I believe some people have overcome this by cutting the plastic add-on spacers for the DRS backplate, but they must have a spacer or something between the BB shell and the backplate. As mine is right now, cutting the spacers would not resolve anything as it would still hit the backplate as well. Unless you have a spacer between the BB shell on the frame and the backplate, it is going to hit. Mine is mounted as it is supposed to be which is with the backplate between the BB shell and BB cup flange.

This is working quite well as it is right now. No issues at all. I may not be able to utilize the roller on the guide in every gear, which although is a bit of a bummer, it is no real big deal.

Until these longer spindles and such are available from Raceface and/or new backplates from EVIL and better front derailers, this is what I am using. I may have to upgrade to new cranks of external bearing type before these things are available though because my ISIS cranks are creaking pretty good and getting worse. I thought it was the BB, but I have tried 3 now, so I believe it to be the ISIS splines themselves. Has this happened to anybody?

I have attached some pics. They are kind of hard to tell what they are. One is from above and two from underneath the frame.

 

[Castle]

thanks for the info!!! I just wrote you back!!

I believe after seeing this, that there is a way to set up a DRS 100% correctly on a vpfree with ISIS (it should take a 2.5mm b.b. spacer behind that back plate to clear the pivot)

.... and will soon be the same as soon as companies address the wider width spindles for Diablous and Saint, which should be in the near future.

Looks as if you would use a E 13 E-type back plate that it would also help with the der. reach, just make it easier for it to shift, it wouldn't get rid of the drag in the stand though.... that's a non issue when riding so I don't consider that a big problem

 

[ChrisKring]

Thanks for the detailed description on what worked. It should save me some time if I ever put a DRS and a front derailuer onto my VP Free. Right now I have a SRS on it.

 

[Castle]

Thanks for the detailed description on what worked. It should save me some time if I ever put a DRS and a front derailuer onto my VP Free. Right now I have a SRS on it.

Just for info,

Are you using ISIS or other (Saint/Diablous)? if ISIS are you using a 128b.b.?

I don't guess there was a problem with the back plate clearing because of the ISCG adapter mount.

Did your roller guard clear your chainstay? i.e. were you able to get proper rotation on the roller?

 

[ChrisKring]

Just for info,

Are you using ISIS or other (Saint/Diablous)? if ISIS are you using a 128b.b.?

I don't guess there was a problem with the back plate clearing because of the ISCG adapter mount.

Did your roller guard clear your chainstay? i.e. were you able to get proper rotation on the roller?

I used a 118mm BB since my 128mm BB didn't come in and I wanted to ride the bike the next day. I had to modify the guide a bit to get it to work and it's still not optimal. Like I said in another thread, get a 128mm and it will go together perfect. Don't waste your time with a 118mm.

 

[SLAYER2003]

Here is my other option.

Evil DRS etype backplate with M750 etype derailer mounted to it.

This combination could spin at the BB union in a crash or hard hit. If this backplate were to rotate, the derailer would as well since it is connected which could result in broken or stretched cables or whatever else.

The "seattube-connecting-etype-clamp-adaptor" from Santa Cruz should be able to keep this from rotating as mentioned. This can also be seen in the pics.

According to Scott Turner at Santa Cruz this clamp is to push the e-type derailer out a few more millimeters for longer derailer throw. This is meant to push the derailer portion out further than the part mounted to the bb in which case it is not exactly straight up and down. Because of this, I am not sure how this will work with the etype DRS backplate rather than the etype part of the derailer.

Now I wonder with this combo if I will need to go back to my 128mm BB or keep this 118 on?

If you look close at the pics from the early Pinkbike review on the Vp-Free, it has a standard top pull derailer and a DRS. The MBA review mentions the adaptor clamp and etype derailer, but does not really say or show any more than that. This is alot of trial and error with these frames. I wish Santa Cruz would just build one and post it here or on their site and say: "This is the combo to use with a DRS".

 

[MichaelT]

Hey thanks for the replies, comments and asnwers.

Here are some updates for those interested or are planning on building one.
We tried many combos to get everything working just right. After getting the shifting issues and chainline and stuff worked out, we had another problem.

Because the 128mm BB is so long, there is a big void between the EVIL guide backplate and the granny ring. This combined with the throw of the front derailer not being quite long enough lets the chain drop between the granny and the BB. This perhaps may be fixed via the etype derailer and clamp and everything associated with that, but that whole setup seems cheesy to me so I was determined to make this work.

Solution? A 118mm BB instead of 128mm. The 128 is just too long. With a 118 everything is now smooth. Chainline is perfect, no skipping chain, derailer throw is fine. Everything so far is great.

I am going on a morning ride tomorrow which consists of a pretty long and not very fun climb. I know the bullits are supposed to climb well, but that is what I had befor this and I did not enjoy this climb on that so this will be a good comparison test.

Here are some more pics.

Thanks for posting the pictures. Unfortunately with that set up you are not using our e.thirteen DRS chain guide to its full potential. With the 118mm BB spindle length, you are not able to rotate the back plate clockwise enough to provide adaquate chain retention. This is an unfortunate issue with bikes that use larger rear end spacing and narrow BB spacing. (Re - 73 BB shell and a 150 rear end spacing). We are currently investigating a solution for VP Free/e.13 chain guide owners. As I type, Jonas is at a local bike shop (Allspeed in Portland, ME) taking photographs of various drivetrain set ups and taking notes.

e.13's stance - Our e.13 Security chain guide system (STS, SRS and DRS) fits more frames without modifcation than any other chain guide system we have encountered. If an issue such as this arrises, we will work for a solution for the end user, the rider. Our dedication to this is due to the focus and drive on producing the best chain guide system in the world. Also, we love to ride and race just as much as you guys and we can relate and appreciate the set up issues you may encounter. Why do you think we started making our own components?

Lastly, Evil has not made any chainguides or bashrings for almost 2 years. We are dedicated all of Evil resources to frame development.

We will post more info as soon as we can.

Thanks,

Michael
e.13 / Evil

 

[SLAYER2003]

Thanks for the reply.

What is the difference of a 118 or a 128 if the backplate clamps between the BB shell and the BB cup? Length of spindle does not change how the cup or the backplate should mate.

I suppose I could do a spacer between the backplate and the BB shell, but this is not how it is supposed to work and in fact my 128mm BB did not come with any spacers or anything.

This would also offset my cranks slightly right?

 

[dw]

Guys with VP frees

We really suggest using a 128 spindle on this frame. The bike uses a 150 rear spacing, which pushes your chainline out by 7.5 mm when compared to a frame using a 135 rear spacing. What this means to you is the following:

150mm- 135mm = 15mm

113mm BB spindle length (should give optimum 3-ring shifting) + 15mm= 128mm BB spindle length.

What this means is that a 128 spindle with a 150 rear hub spacing is equivalent in chainline to a 113 BB spindle with a 135 rear hub spacing.

Using a 118 spindle with the 150 rear hub spacing will give you the equivalent of using a 103 mm spindle on a 135 rear hub spacing. This is not good for shifting performance, especially if you are running a 2 ring chainguide.

SO after all that is said, the crazy men over at e.thirteen unanimously recommend and urge VP free riders to run 128 long BB spindles with our chainguides. Using the 128 will give top level performance. Using a 118 will not give the same performance capability in our opinion.

Feel free to pass this info around!

Thanks!

Dave
e.thirteen

 

[dan-o]

Listen to DW. My vpfree with 128 bb works flawlessly with my SRS; easy set up, perfect alignment/rotation and zero problems to date.

 

[SLAYER2003]

Alright, I'll try my 128mm again.

I did not try the etype setup when I had it on because it seemed like it would cause the same issues as the regular one was.

As I stated before there was a huge gap between the backplate and the granny ring and the chain would somehow get down in there when I had the 128 on.

With SRS or a single DH ring in front, most of these issues with dialing these frames in are a non-issue because you do not have a front derailer.

 

[SLAYER2003]

Here is what is needed:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93134&highlight=vp-free