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Wait a second... *THIS* is torture..????

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
:confused:

Gitmo Soldier Details Sexual Tactics
AP | Jan 27 | PAISLEY DODDS | LINK

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - Female interrogators tried to break Muslim detainees at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay by sexual touching, wearing a miniskirt and thong underwear and in one case smearing a Saudi man's face with fake menstrual blood, according to an insider's written account.

A draft manuscript obtained by The Associated Press is classified as secret pending a Pentagon review for a planned book that details ways the U.S. military used women as part of tougher physical and psychological interrogation tactics to get terror suspects to talk.

It's the most revealing account so far of interrogations at the secretive detention camp, where officials say they have halted some controversial techniques.

"I have really struggled with this because the detainees, their families and much of the world will think this is a religious war based on some of the techniques used, even though it is not the case," the author, former Army Sgt. Erik R. Saar, 29, told AP.

Saar didn't provide the manuscript or approach AP, but confirmed the authenticity of nine draft pages AP obtained. He requested his hometown remain private so he wouldn't be harassed. Saar, who is neither Muslim nor of Arab descent, worked as an Arabic translator at the U.S. camp in eastern Cuba from December 2002 to June 2003. At the time, it was under the command of Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who had a mandate to get better intelligence from prisoners, including alleged al-Qaida members caught in Afghanistan.

Saar said he witnessed about 20 interrogations and about three months after his arrival at the remote U.S. base he started noticing "disturbing" practices.

One female civilian contractor used a special outfit that included a miniskirt, thong underwear and a bra during late-night interrogations with prisoners, mostly Muslim men who consider it taboo to have close contact with women who aren't their wives.

Beginning in April 2003, "there hung a short skirt and thong underwear on the hook on the back of the door" of one interrogation team's office, he writes. "Later I learned that this outfit was used for interrogations by one of the female civilian contractors ... on a team which conducted interrogations in the middle of the night on Saudi men who were refusing to talk."

Some Guantanamo prisoners who have been released say they were tormented by "prostitutes."

In another case, Saar describes a female military interrogator questioning an uncooperative 21-year-old Saudi detainee who allegedly had taken flying lessons in Arizona before the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Suspected Sept. 11 hijacker Hani Hanjour received pilot instruction for three months in 1996 and in December 1997 at a flight school in Scottsdale, Ariz.

"His female interrogator decided that she needed to turn up the heat," Saar writes, saying she repeatedly asked the detainee who had sent him to Arizona, telling him he could "cooperate" or "have no hope whatsoever of ever leaving this place or talking to a lawyer.'"

The man closed his eyes and began to pray, Saar writes.

The female interrogator wanted to "break him," Saar adds, describing how she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner's back and commenting on his apparent erection.

The detainee looked up and spat in her face, the manuscript recounts.

The interrogator left the room to ask a Muslim linguist how she could break the prisoner's reliance on God. The linguist told her to tell the detainee that she was menstruating, touch him, then make sure to turn off the water in his cell so he couldn't wash.

Strict interpretation of Islamic law forbids physical contact with women other than a man's wife or family, and with any menstruating women, who are considered unclean.

"The concept was to make the detainee feel that after talking to her he was unclean and was unable to go before his God in prayer and gain strength," says the draft, stamped "Secret."

The interrogator used ink from a red pen to fool the detainee, Saar writes.

"She then started to place her hands in her pants as she walked behind the detainee," he says. "As she circled around him he could see that she was taking her hand out of her pants. When it became visible the detainee saw what appeared to be red blood on her hand. She said, 'Who sent you to Arizona?' He then glared at her with a piercing look of hatred.

"She then wiped the red ink on his face. He shouted at the top of his lungs, spat at her and lunged forward" - so fiercely that he broke loose from one ankle shackle.

"He began to cry like a baby," the draft says, noting the interrogator left saying, "Have a fun night in your cell without any water to clean yourself."

Events Saar describes resemble two previous reports of abusive female interrogation tactics, although it wasn't possible to independently verify his account.

In November, in response to an AP request, the military described an April 2003 incident in which a female interrogator took off her uniform top, exposed her brown T-shirt, ran her fingers through a detainee's hair and sat on his lap. That session was immediately ended by a supervisor and that interrogator received a written reprimand and additional training, the military said.

In another incident, the military reported that in early 2003 a different female interrogator "wiped dye from red magic marker on detainees' shirt after detainee spit (cq) on her," telling the detainee it was blood. She was verbally reprimanded, the military said.

Sexual tactics used by female interrogators have been criticized by the FBI, which complained in a letter obtained by AP last month that U.S. defense officials hadn't acted on complaints by FBI observers of "highly aggressive" interrogation techniques, including one in which a female interrogator grabbed a detainee's genitals.

About 20 percent of the guards at Guantanamo are women, said Lt. Col. James Marshall, a spokesman for U.S. Southern Command. He wouldn't say how many of the interrogators were female.

Marshall wouldn't address whether the U.S. military had a specific strategy to use women.

"U.S. forces treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur, humanely and consistent with U.S. legal obligations, and in particular with legal obligations prohibiting torture," Marshall said late Wednesday.

But some officials at the U.S. Southern Command have questioned the formation of an all-female team as one of Guantanamo's "Immediate Reaction Force" units that subdue troublesome male prisoners in their cells, according to a document classified as secret and obtained by AP.

In one incident, dated June 19, 2004, "The detainee appears to be genuinely traumatized by a female escort securing the detainee's leg irons," according to the document, a U.S. Southern Command summary of videotapes shot when the teams were used.

The summary warned that anyone outside Department of Defense channels should be prepared to address allegations that women were used intentionally with Muslim men.

At Guantanamo, Saar said, "Interrogators were given a lot of latitude under Miller," the commander who went from the prison in Cuba to overseeing prisons in Iraq, where the Abu Ghraib scandal shocked the world with pictures revealing sexual humiliation of naked prisoners.

Several female troops have been charged in the Abu Ghraib scandal.

Saar said he volunteered to go to Guantanamo because "I really believed in the mission," but then he became disillusioned during his six months at the prison.

After leaving the Army with more than four years service, Saar worked as a contractor briefly for the FBI.

The Department of Defense has censored parts of his draft, mainly blacking out people's names, said Saar, who hired Washington attorney Mark S. Zaid to represent him. Saar needed permission to publish because he signed a disclosure statement before going to Guantanamo.

The book, which Saar titled "Inside the Wire," is due out this year with Penguin Press.

Guantanamo has about 545 prisoners from some 40 countries, many held more than three years without charge or access to lawyers and many suspected of links to al-Qaida or Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime, which harbored the terrorist network.
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
not sure what goes down in louisiana, but getting one's face smeared w/ (fake) menstrual blood doesn't like a fetish i'm into. but different strokes, i suppose.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
narlus said:
not sure what goes down in louisiana, but getting one's face smeared w/ (fake) menstrual blood doesn't like a fetish i'm into. but different strokes, i suppose.

Fake blood is torture..???

What happend to the ol' standards of pull your fingernails out and tooth extraction with a rusty pair of pliers???


The 'torture' in this report sounds like a typical nite out for some Monkies... :p
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,202
1,390
NC
"You'll never get me to talk! You don't know my only weakness! Haha!

I sure hope a gorgeous woman doesn't give me a b*** j**! That's the only thing that could get me to talk!"



:p
 

Btyler311

Chimp
Aug 8, 2004
67
0
I am not sure what I think of all that. On the one hand it can't be argued to be physical torture, but it appears to cause sever emotional distress, and strong belief can cause things to cross the mental/physical barrier.

Funny how something that seems to be torture to one group sounds like some fun kink to another. If im a really baaad muslim will she spank me too?

LOL

Ty
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Btyler311 said:
I am not sure what I think of all that. On the one hand it can't be argued to be physical torture, but it appears to cause sever emotional distress, and strong belief can cause things to cross the mental/physical barrier.

Ty

Like the 911 hijackers who spent the night before Sept 11th at a strip bar...?
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
N8 said:
"I have really struggled with this because the detainees, their families and much of the world will think this is a religious war based on some of the techniques used, even though it is not the case," the author, former Army Sgt. Erik R. Saar, 29, told AP.
Gee, we really don't want to give the rest of the world the wrong impression about this. Maybe we should really start taking into account the effects of our actions? After all, better to start later than never...
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
by "fake" menstrual blood, i assumed that it was real blood, just not squeegeed out of a tampon. maybe that assumption is incorrect and they used Heinz ketchup?
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
narlus said:
by "fake" menstrual blood, i assumed that it was real blood, just not squeegeed out of a tampon. maybe that assumption is incorrect and they used Heinz ketchup?

They used red ink from a broken pen.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
N8 said:
Fake blood is torture..???
Yes.

If you need any other clarification that trying to do harm, either physical or mental, to gain information is torutre; we'll strap you in a chair and make you watch every speach that Ted Kennedy has ever made.... :eviltongu
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
I Are Baboon said:
Yeah, but obviously the detainees didn't know that. I'd be pretty grossed out too if someone smeared what I thought was real blood on my face.
apparently N8 likes that, though. probably rush limbaugh, too, while hopped up on oxycontin.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
I Are Baboon said:
Yeah, but obviously the detainees didn't know that. I'd be pretty grossed out too if someone smeared what I thought was real blood on my face.

What kinds of things would you do if the detainee has info which if known would save innocent lives either in the US or elsewhere?

Psychological duress is far less abusive than slitting some guys throat on video.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
N8 said:
What kinds of things would you do if the detainee has info which if known would save innocent lives either in the US or elsewhere?

Psychological duress is far less abusive than slitting some guys throat on video.
You're right, after all of it were not for these techniques we would have never found Osama... :rolleyes:

Whatever happened to some drugs, a car battery, and a bucket of water?
 

Btyler311

Chimp
Aug 8, 2004
67
0
For once I agree with N8... ???

Scary.

But what do they expect us to do. Grab these guys take away their Kalisnikovs and then just sit them in the corner with a bad boy hat on until the time out clock runs down so they can go back out and play?

We grab "most" of these guys doing things that makes one think they must know something that can lead to more arrests further up the chain or discovery of weapons caches or at least some tid bit that if exploited will likely save at least an american soldier or 7 and possibly help end this mess and get our people home safer, sooner with Iraq in the hands of its own whack jobs, as opposed to ours.

I say drag em around by dog collars and make them lick some combat boots while playing naked twister in a pile of fake used sanitary naps.

I may be a liberal but I'm not one of those "bleeding heart" you can't spank your own brats hippy pacifists.

Ty
 

I Are Baboon

Vagina man
Aug 6, 2001
32,820
11,006
MTB New England
First you say this....

N8 said:
Fake blood is torture..???
Then you say this...

N8 said:
Psychological duress is far less abusive than slitting some guys throat on video.
So do you think it's torture or not?

To answer your question "What kinds of things would you do...?", hell if I know. I never said I was opposed to it.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
What kinds of things would you do if the detainee has info which if known would save innocent lives either in the US or elsewhere?

Psychological duress is far less abusive than slitting some guys throat on video.
If you know they have info you already know the info. If you don't know the info you don't know they know it...

Logic 101.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
In all fairness... change 'sodomy with a nitght-stick' to 'a woman in lacey lingerie'.... and read it again...
So if a male interrogator 'sexually touched' a female detainee and smeared fake semen on her face you'd be happy with that?

Could even be a woman you know...
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
another "tortuous" question: Anybody here ok w/ telling each detainee their cultural meals will never be available, or will be tainted w/ pork &/| menstrual blood?

i am. irrespective of whether or not it's done. if this is a violation of any recognised tenet/covenent/doctrine/law, do advise.
 

Macrider

Monkey
Oct 13, 2003
194
0
Los Angeles
N8 said:
What kinds of things would you do if the detainee has info which if known would save innocent lives either in the US or elsewhere?

Psychological duress is far less abusive than slitting some guys throat on video.
but our people HAVE engaged in physical torture it's well documented- in fact, 30 deaths of detainees are being investigated - the British citizens who were unlawfully detained at Gitmo have started a lawsuit (they turned out to be completely innocent of anything despite 3 years of incarceration and torture - so we finally let them go) - letting dogs bite innocent people (turns out 80% of those in Alu Ghareb were not guilty of anything and later released) is not only illegal, immoral - it's just plain stupid - we invite brutality and we piss off the Muslim world (even more than they are) - and there are 1.3 Billion Muslims in this world, so even if we have to kill those that attack us, seem to me a good idea to NOT piss the rest of them off

and of course, if WE aren't going to abide by the Geneva Conventions, why should anybody else?
 

gschuette

Monkey
Sep 22, 2004
621
0
Truck
N8 said:
Psychological duress is far less abusive than slitting some guys throat on video.

Have you guys seen some of the beheading videos? After seeing some of those I say who gives a ****! Some nasty girl dancing around and smearing fake blood is nowhere near the same level of abuse as beheading is. Hmm beheading or a ****ty lap dance? Which is worse?

I am not saying I condone any torture or think it is the right way to get things done. I am just saying isn't this just a little trivial?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Macrider said:
but our people HAVE engaged in physical torture it's well documented-
kindly provide a link to the documentation, please.
macrider said:
in fact, 30 deaths of detainees are being investigated -
as are all deaths, so what?
macrider said:
the British citizens who were unlawfully detained at Gitmo have started a lawsuit
what law was violated?
macrider said:
(turns out 80% of those in Alu Ghareb were not guilty of anything and later released)
i believe they fared better than the residents under the previous administrator of abu-ghraib
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Ok I think we can all agree that physical torture is as far as our culture is concerned a no-no.

So roll back the clock a week and lets think about this A-Q car bomber guy. You gotta assume that this cat knows about stuff that might have gone down today. What means would you condone to get the info out of him?

If we arrest someone that we are certain has information should we ask nicely?
 

TheInedibleHulk

Turbo Monkey
May 26, 2004
1,886
0
Colorado
I don't know about you guys but I can't think of a better way to work towards peace in the muslim world than by proving to everyone that we are the corrupt, immoral, perverted infidels that they think we are. Fluff made the most solid point so far about what you would think if the genders were the other way around. To an american mind being taunted by an attractive female may be the farthest thing in the world from torture, but to think that that is true for a muslim simply exposes the ignorance and ethnocentrism that defines your point of view and political tendancies.

That said, I am not entirely sure how I feel about the interogation of prisoners that may have life-saving information. On one hand, my idealistic side feels like it is the duty of Americans to take the higher ground and not stoop to the level of the same tyrants and murderers that we are alwasy condemning. On the other hand, if I was the interrogator and I knew that my prisoner had information that would save the lives of innocent people, I may be the first to start shooting kneecaps. It's a tough call, I dont have a good answer.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,229
9,114
Damn True said:
Ok I think we can all agree that physical torture is as far as our culture is concerned a no-no.

So roll back the clock a week and lets think about this A-Q car bomber guy. You gotta assume that this cat knows about stuff that might have gone down today. What means would you condone to get the info out of him?

If we arrest someone that we are certain has information should we ask nicely?
the means DO NOT justify the ends. especially when the leadership has been demonstrated to be extremely prone to overstating threats.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Damn True said:
Ok I think we can all agree that physical torture is as far as our culture is concerned a no-no.

So roll back the clock a week and lets think about this A-Q car bomber guy. You gotta assume that this cat knows about stuff that might have gone down today. What means would you condone to get the info out of him?

If we arrest someone that we are certain has information should we ask nicely?
On the basis that someone might know something about something that might happen...

...you would condone what?