[ROTFLMAO]

Design Aspects with Corsair Bikes' Doug Stuart

Check out the HD video of the suspension linkage and Idler pulley in action. Doug offers some excellent explanations on what when into designing the Maelstrom.

 

[jonKranked]

Doug also posts here on RM. Very cool to be able to have this kind of direct correspondence with someone from the company.

 

[- seb]

Is it one shock and then the other, or can they work independently to give you a "square inches" of travel, a-la the old proto WC cannondales?

edit: nm, wrong bike! My question is about the Crown

 

[Sandwich]

I'm convinced that this is what's going to sell bikes in THE FUTURE. I feel like that customer/supplier interaction has become a make or break feature in the small scale world of MTB. Companies that go above and beyond (E13, Evil, the artist formerly known as IronHorse Bikes, Superco, and some others) seem to be doing well in an otherwise bad market. Companies like Giant and Trek can sell based on volume, but the little guys with good service are the bikes I want to ride.

 

[Sandwich]

Is it one shock and then the other, or can they work independently to give you a "square inches" of travel, a-la the old proto WC cannondales?

edit: nm, wrong bike! My question is about the Crown

From what I understand, the Crown is marketed as a "blowoff shock" equipped bike. Would be killer to tune them so you had just a little more rearward compliance via the secondary shock. Same deal with the 2stage.

Watched the video, what's with the baseball cards in the spokes? Man it's loud when he pedals...

 

[- seb]

Animation of Crown on their site shows that the 2nd shock does nothing until the 1st shock is fully compressed, but I can't see anything physically restraining it from moving. It's effectively a 5-bar linkage, so there must be 2 degrees of freedom in the wheelpath I reckon, although it may be MOSTLY constrained to one path through how the shocks are set up.

 

[Sandwich]

The action is really really similar to a 2stage, only the front "blow off"/"platform" shock is activated from the top and swingarm instead of the bottom/rocker. Which is lighter is up for grabs.

I still see no reason you couldn't run it as an "area-pivot" bike, except for the upper shock eyelits, which on the crown function as the upper pivot. Unless you're running a good shock or the system is very stout, I could see that area having a lot of problems if it's moving significantly and often.

Would be an awesome science experiment. Cannondale failed miserably but they failed for several reason not entirely related to the frame design.

 

[MinorThreat]

Too bad the article couldn't at least spell Doug's name right.

 

[IH8Rice]

The action is really really similar to a 2stage, only the front "blow off"/"platform" shock is activated from the top and swingarm instead of the bottom/rocker. Which is lighter is up for grabs.

this design looks nicer than the 2Stage. i got to pedal a 2Stage around last week, but id be interested to actually try both on the trails. the place wanted around 80Euro to try it and i wasnt bout to pay that much just to settle my curiosity

 

[ROTFLMAO]

The spelling was fixed. My excitement to post the article caused me to overlook the misspelling. That was too bad wasn't it...

The mic was fairly close to the drivetrain so the sound of the pulley is exaggerated a bit. The sound is audible when riding but not annoying at all. A small price to pay for the benefits that it offers IMO. Sheesh, people buy Hope hubs because they are loud...

 

[HardtailHack]

It's a shame they don't go a little more in depth with the frame/suspension design on the web site.

 

[Vrock]

"the Maelstrom is the first bike to have an idler pulley which allows for multiple front chainrings to be used. And second, the Maelstrom is the first bike to have an idler pulley attached to its swingarm."

That's Wrong, Thylacine did a XC Bike with and Idler pulley and a front Deiralleur. And the BB7 had the Idler mounted to the Swingarm...

Anyway, I really REALY like the Maelstrom.

 

[ROTFLMAO]

Hmm, well those somewhat obscure bikes must have been overlooked when that statement was written. Maybe it is the first to have a front derailleur compatible idler pulley that is attached to the swingarm?

The idler does make a big difference when pedaling over rough terrain especially on climbs. The drivetrain feels like it is isolated from the suspension movement yet it still effectively gets the power down while providing excellent traction.

 

[Supa8]

Gave my Maelstrom a good day on the hill Sunday. The bike rails. So much fun. For me being short the small fits perfect and feels like it has gobs of travel. Found my self in higher gears than normal all day. Good stuff.

 

[cneums]

i'm thinking of buying one, how well would you say it climbs? enough for some light all mountain?

 

[ROTFLMAO]

It climbs extremely well for a bike with this much travel and downhill prowess. Especially when climbing over rough technical terrain.

 

[ROTFLMAO]

The review has been updated. More pics and vids inside http://mtbgeartech.com/blog/?page_id=637

 

[stiksandstones]

Riddle me this...
why has Corsair not got the same fanboy buzz that Evil bikes has? I only ask because I kind of see them as similar brands, new, got soul, cool bikes, etc...

 

[William42]

Riddle me this...
why has Corsair not got the same fanboy buzz that Evil bikes has? I only ask because I kind of see them as similar brands, new, got soul, cool bikes, etc...

probably because evil said: "hey, were going to come out with a new DH bike! check us out! Its on the way" then gave an update and said "it should be ready by next spring" and sure enough, out it popped like a newborn babe.

corsair said "hey, were going to bring out some sick new bikes, check us out!" and everybody got real excited. A year passed, and everybody went "so are these coming out soon?" and corsair said "yah real soon! check us out!" and then another year passed, and they finally released their FR bike, which is essentially a high single pivot with an idler.

Evil delivered an absolutely sick DH bike.

Corsair has yet to deliver a DH bike, despite repeated claims on time frame, and having an extra year and a half.

 

[JohnnyC]

Corsair has yet to deliver a DH bike, despite repeated claims on time frame, and having an extra year and a half.

You mean like the Crown which has been available for a year now?

 

[William42]

You mean like the Crown which has been available for a year now?

you mean they were lying to me when they said "this spring" when I asked last fall? bad move on their part, since I ended up buying a canfield instead of the crown, looks like the lost some bucks from that one. I never heard about a release or a definite date they'd be released, just "later." I don't doubt that it was possible to get ahold of them last year, it just wasn't for me, and I never heard a thing about a release date.

But I guess that proves my point, because I know alot of other people who think exactly the same thing. If nobody knows your bike is going to be available, you take forever and a half to release it, and the only information out there is conflicting information, you're not going to generate alot of good marketing right there. with so many good options out there, making people come to you doesn't really work.

 

[time-bomb]

Corsair has yet to deliver a DH bike, despite repeated claims on time frame, and having an extra year and a half.

really? I thought the Crown DH has been available since the beginning of summer.

 

[spocomptonrider]

probably because evil said: "hey, were going to come out with a new DH bike! check us out! Its on the way" then gave an update and said "it should be ready by next spring" and sure enough, out it popped like a newborn babe.

corsair said "hey, were going to bring out some sick new bikes, check us out!" and everybody got real excited. A year passed, and everybody went "so are these coming out soon?" and corsair said "yah real soon! check us out!" and then another year passed, and they finally released their FR bike, which is essentially a high single pivot with an idler.

Evil delivered an absolutely sick DH bike.

Corsair has yet to deliver a DH bike, despite repeated claims on time frame, and having an extra year and a half.

Not to mention the fact that the Evil was designed by one of the most renowned suspension designers in the industry and the company is owned by a rider who will be more than happy to answer any of your questions in a knowledgeable way that can only come from a rider who cares about his company and the companies image (one of the biggest factors in selling 'boutique' type bikes.

Its also hard to overlook the fact that Evil has a fully factory supported race team + Vanderwhip, no small feat for a company essentially in its first year. Corsair on the other hand has repeatedly proven that it is a business first here simply to make money (although this is just my opinion they have proven it in a number of ways).

The company is owned by a guy who acts like he could give 2 sh*ts about the riders or their opinions. Evil and Corsair both show up and support the Fluidride race series (at the PA locale) but their are major differences in the way they operate, Evil is very professional and inviting, always one of the first ones there and usually one of the last ones out.

This story is a bit skewered in perspective but this is what I saw. At the last PA race Evil and all of the other vendors/teams were all ready to go by the time the shuttle trucks started running on sunday morning (race day) this was about 9:00. By this time the shuttle lines are pretty long as every one is trying to get as many practice runs as possible before their race run. This is about the time that the Corsair van waltzes in and trys to get pissed off because there are bikes and people in his way whilst trying to park. Horn honking and general ass-hattery were had by the driver.

While this may or may not reflect the companies direction as a whole I think it speaks volumes for the way they have treated the riders over the past couple years. One would assume that if you are trying to make a company survive in a cutthroat market not to mention economy, you would be doing everything in your power to make that image shine, by not pulling the kind of shenanigans they keep pulling.

The bikes look fairly impressive, but the things I have seen from the people working for the company are NOT IMPRESSIVE. Not to mention the "Factory Test Pilot" Pablo was a total d!ck any time anyone asked anything regarding the bike. Rant over, but I feel this should have something to do with the lack of stoke regarding said company. Thumbsdown.

 

[ROTFLMAO]

Wow, lots of opinions and experiences on here.

Here's my experience so far:

-Doug Stuart has been very helpful in answering questions.
-I got the bike very quickly.
-I was going to test an Elka but Elka hasn't been able to supply me with one.
-The Maelstrom is the real deal, the performance and craftsmanship is some of the best I've ever seen. Bottom line, the design works very well.

That's where I'm at so far. I hope that the stories of the bad attitude at Corsair are few and far between and that Corsair prospers in the industry. I would love to see where there design prowess takes them in the future.

 

[William42]

I have nothing but good things to say about the crown, and about the dudes. I met them at sea otter in 08 and they were super chill guys, nothing but positive things to say about them.

 

[no skid marks]

The bike looks excellent and well thought out.
IMO most people are moronic sheep, and I don't give a rats arse if the head honcho at Corsair doesn't talk **** to sell bikes or act nice. Knowing a bought a bike off a guy I'd want my daughter to marry will not make my bike ride better.
This industry is full off smoke and mirrors, and I personally would rather the people behind the bikes were normal even angry and rude, so I'm not having my judgement of their bikes impared.
The proof is in the pudding so to speak, not the sexy waitress that delivered it.
Having said all that, I would like any non rhetorical questions I asked about the frames answered promptly.

 

[Lelandjt]

My friend has a Maelstrom and the idler pulley does not work well. Its axle isn't strong enough and he's bent it. It doesn't play well with the front derailleur because it doesn't easily slide side to side. It's also pretty heavy compared to similar travel, geo frames.

 

[ROTFLMAO]

My friend has a Maelstrom and the idler pulley does not work well. Its axle isn't strong enough and he's bent it. It doesn't play well with the front derailleur because it doesn't easily slide side to side. It's also pretty heavy compared to similar travel, geo frames.

This is not the experience that I've had. I will say that the idler and axle that it rides on does need frequent maintenance. I pull mine off after a good day's riding, clean off all of the muck and apply a wax lube to the axle. It's been working like a charm the whole time. Bending the axle seems like it would be tough but I don't doubt that it could happen under extenuating circumstances.

Lelandjt, was the problem addressed quickly by Corsair?

 

[HardtailHack]

I like the design of the frame, however it does have a couple of areas that show why it is cheaper than the competition.

Has anyone else had to grind a section of the dropout to allow the maxle to fit?

 

[Lelandjt]

I assume Corsair gave him a new idler axle quickly since the day we rode together it wasn't bent. He's a bigger guy so I guess it takes some serious chain torque to bend it. The real problem was that to get the idler to easily move side to side (necessary for good front shifting) requires it to be clean and lubed. There is no seal so daily maintenance is a must.

I should say that he loves the low BB and general ride of the bike. I wasn't impressed with the somewhat complicated shock driving linkage that contributes to the hefty weight.

 

[Supa8]

I like the design of the frame, however it does have a couple of areas that show why it is cheaper than the competition.

Has anyone else had to grind a section of the dropout to allow the maxle to fit?

Not at all? Where did you need to do this? Maxle has been perfect from day one and alignment is spot on.

 

[ROTFLMAO]

There is absolutely no need to grind anything to make the Maxle fit.

IMO the shock linkage is genius. It allows for an extremely low COG, a full length seat tube, a 10.5" shock for a true 2:1 ratio and a great leverage curve. It isn't the lightes on the block but it isn't the heaviest either. The Cove STD that I just got in is about 0.9# heavier for the frame frame and shock...

All these bikes are building up to around 40# without light wheels and such. Still very respectable IMO.

 

[Gridds]

the Maelstrom idler pulley is mounted to its swingarm, while pedaling, the chain path actually creates some down-force on the swingarm resulting in a firming of the rear swingarm. The swingarm stays fully active from a suspension perspective,

I'm not sure about this statement and the fact that the idler moves and is not centred on the pivot. Seems odd to me. If pedalling "firms up the swingarm" how can the "swingarm stay fully active"? Sounds a bit contradictory to me! And it slides from side to side!!?? Their idler principle in general seem like it's the biggest weakness of this bike. Increases pedal efficiency? Meh...

The idler on my bike (Katipo) is silent, well efficient, strong as **** and doesn't make that terrible racket heard in that video. Damn that's a noisy bike!! That sucks!.. The only noise I like from a bike is that of the tyres on the terra firma and the squish of the dampers.

Otherwise its not too bad... I appreciate it's not intended as a full dh bike... (The Crown looks alright....)

 

[ROTFLMAO]

I'm not sure about this statement and the fact that the idler moves and is not centred on the pivot. Seems odd to me. If pedalling "firms up the swingarm" how can the "swingarm stay fully active"? Sounds a bit contradictory to me! And it slides from side to side!!?? Their idler principle in general seem like it's the biggest weakness of this bike. Increases pedal efficiency? Meh...

The idler on my bike (Katipo) is silent, well efficient, strong as **** and doesn't make that terrible racket heard in that video. Damn that's a noisy bike!! That sucks!.. The only noise I like from a bike is that of the tyres on the terra firma and the squish of the dampers.

Otherwise its not too bad... I appreciate it's not intended as a full dh bike... (The Crown looks alright....)

I wouldn't say that you notice any firming of the swingarm but you definitely don't notice any drivetrain force induced bobbing. The idler is very effective in decoupling the movement of the rear wheel from the drivetrain i.e. no kickback. It also eliminates almost all chain growth in a design that would otherwise have a ton of it (true rearward axle path).

Keep in mind that the sound that you hear is being recorded by a camera that is within close proximity to the drivetrain and that the camera is firmly mounted to an aluminum frame that transfers sound very well. In other words the sound that you're hearing is amplified and isn't that loud in person. It is noticeable but not ridiculous.

Your frame is Cromoly which is "dead" when compared to Al from a sound standpoint. Your Idler is also mounted in a non-floating arrangement so it should be much quieter. Katipos are extremely nice BTW, I want one.

I should add that the only reason I am defending this frame is because I feel that it is a really great performer and has a well though out design. I'm not a fan boy, I'm not sponsored by Corsair and I'm not being paid to promote their bikes. There are so many really nice bikes available right now, it's a great time to be a DH/FR athlete. I just built up a Cove STD, it's also pretty damn nice...

 

[Lelandjt]

Oh yeah, I did notice how clattery my friend's Maelstrom was. The chain runs millimeters from the swingarm so any chain bounce results in clatter. Is there room to glue rubber strips from an innertube inside of the "chain channel"? I glue rubber to the stays of my bikes to quiet them down. It's a mental thing for me, quiet=smooth and fast.

 

[HardtailHack]

I will try undoing the mounting bolts to see if there is any give, I think it will need to be ground little.

Do your frames have small ripples in the top tube near the seatpost? They are only small and won't cause a strength issue but they are there, which may piss some people off.

Another thing that seems a bit odd is the hollow end on the down tube, I'm guessing this would fill up wit crud really quickly adding some of the weight that was removed by machining.

I didn't expect a real boutique frame for the price I paid for it, however these little things may really piss some owners off.

 

[ROTFLMAO]

Oh yeah, I did notice how clattery my friend's Maelstrom was. The chain runs millimeters from the swingarm so any chain bounce results in clatter. Is there room to glue rubber strips from an innertube inside of the "chain channel"? I glue rubber to the stays of my bikes to quiet them down. It's a mental thing for me, quiet=smooth and fast.

Everyone that I know that has the frame covers the inside of the tunnel with adhesive backed velcro

I will try undoing the mounting bolts to see if there is any give, I think it will need to be ground little.

Do your frames have small ripples in the top tube near the seatpost? They are only small and won't cause a strength issue but they are there, which may piss some people off.

Another thing that seems a bit odd is the hollow end on the down tube, I'm guessing this would fill up wit crud really quickly adding some of the weight that was removed by machining.

I didn't expect a real boutique frame for the price I paid for it, however these little things may really piss some owners off.

That isn't right. Call or e-mail Corsair and have them send out a new dropout immediately. It appears to be machined incorrectly

The DT doesn't fill up with muck.

Hack, you should sell the frame if you are not happy with it. There are plenty of other "boutique" frames that have had problems in the past like being welded wrong and tweaked upon delivery, misaligned ISCG tabs etc. I would only be pissed if Corsair doesn't fix your dropout problem quickly.

 

[HardtailHack]

Like I said I don't really care, I'll just put a slight bevelled edge on it and it will be fine. There is a heap of meat there and it won't cause any dramas, I'll make nice and smooth just to be sure.

I'm now leaning towards an AVY rear shock just because it will be much easier to get parts to service it as there is no Elka dealer over here.

 

[LMC]

Like I said I don't really care, I'll just put a slight bevelled edge on it and it will be fine. There is a heap of meat there and it won't cause any dramas, I'll make nice and smooth just to be sure.

I'm now leaning towards an AVY rear shock just because it will be much easier to get parts to service it as there is no Elka dealer over here.

id be more inclined to put a washer between the dropout and maxle shoulder if possible and save grinding your frame

 

[P.T.W]

Hmm, well those somewhat obscure bikes must have been overlooked when that statement was written. Maybe it is the first to have a front derailleur compatible idler pulley that is attached to the swingarm?
The idler does make a big difference when pedaling over rough terrain especially on climbs. The drive train feels like it is isolated from the suspension movement yet it still effectively gets the power down while providing excellent traction.

Actually the 2stage 6"trail bike has a idler that is attached to the rear suspension....it also IS the front derailleur...pretty sure it precedes the maelstrom buy over a year