[Jm_]

Interesting topic came up somewhere else. I, myself, have only bought a complete bike online once, and even then it wasn't from the manufacturer, but an online retailer. The question is, how do you warranty stuff that breaks on your consumer-direct-sold bike? Example, intense says:

Components other than the Intense frame, such as handlebars, headsets, wheels, brakes, chains, cranks, pedals, gears, suspension components, derailleurs, seats, seatposts, bearings, etc., are not warranted by Intense, but may be covered by their respective manufacturers’ warranties. Please check your purchase documents and the component manufacturers’ websites for details.

But many of those manufacturers will not deal with the customers, requiring you to go through a shop, which has no requirement to honor your broken stuff, if you even have a shop and if that shop actually even deals in those parts. I know Race Face for one will tell you to go pound sand if you can't get a shop to send in the part. So you buy a direct-sales bike and essentially you get no warranty on many of the parts. Is that even legal (just because you say you can do it doesn't always make it legal)? Seems like this is the 1000lb gorilla/nasty-side of direct sales that has probably not yet fully reared it's head. With as unreliable as things like brakes, dropper posts, plastic cranksets and a few other things are, it sounds like you just get screwed in the end. The bike manufacturer and component manufacturer just want to pass the buck. At the same time, it seems that more and more bike makers are pulling out of offering framesets and only doing build kits.

Thoughts?

 

[iRider]

I am pretty sure that in Europe the person/shop/company you bought the bike from has to deal with the warranty claim. They can get their money back from the manufacturer of the part later but initially have to take care of you.

 

[Gary]

as iRider said Warranty remains with the seller. ie. buy a bike from YT in Germany. YT has to deal with your warranty even say your warranty claim is for a Shimano product and you hapen to live right next to the UK Shimano distributor.

I've had pretty decent experience with any direct sales full bikes whether it was manufacturer or online shop. From the Intense blurb you've quoted the rules in the US must be very different. That or just a big bong day when writing them.

 

[StiHacka]

I've had the same issue with a Reverb dropper that failed inside warranty period. I bought it from Jenson (IIRC), they told me to contact SRAM directly. SRAM does not deal with end customers. I had to go through the LBS and was at their mercy to handle the warranty exchange for me, it cost me about $40 for shipping and handling. Is it fair to assume that there are no rules for this kind of stuff in the US?

 

[vinny4130]

For just a moment think about getting interrupted form your job, start to handle a failure you had nothing to do with what so ever. Then think about how much (money) it would take for you to stop what you are doing at work to address what ever random thing has failed and start to take care of it ie. contact manufacture, fill out stupid form, send pictures, don’t forget with proof of purchase, and make the “customer” feel like they are a special snowflake. When (speaking for my experiences) 50% of the time it’s user error, but I can’t say that. Why? Because then I’m just being an asshole, pissed because “you” didn’t get the part form my shop. (Whew I needed to exercise that demon.) Honestly I had a guy last week tell me there must be something wrong with his i9 hub or sram cassette because it “couldn’t go on”, I have no love for i9 and would love to blame them, but I knew this was going to be his fault. Sure as shit he couldn’t put on a sram cassette. It’s fucking one piece it goes on one way!

 

[Flo33]

In the EU you have to distinguish between warranty and defects liability. The former is an individual offering by the manufacturer while the latter is a legal condition witb certain limitations.

Warranty is pretty self explanatory. The manufacturer offers 2 years of guarantee by whatever terms.

Defects liability is a bit different. As an end customer the manufacturer is liable for any defects which occur in the first two years after sale and are caused by a manufacturing or design defect. For the first six months the manufacturer has to proof the opposite, for the last 18 months the consumer has to proof the defects cause by the manufacturer.
Your contact as an end consumer is always your retail seller! Like Gary and iRider already stated.

Hope somebody can follow my non professional legal divagation

 

[iRider]

I am pretty sure that in the US e.g. Apple would warranty a defective display on one of their phones and not send you to the chinese manufacturer of it. So why does the bike industry do something different?

 

[Jm_]

For just a moment think about getting interrupted form your job, start to handle a failure you had nothing to do with what so ever. Then think about how much (money) it would take for you to stop what you are doing at work to address what ever random thing has failed and start to take care of it ie. contact manufacture, fill out stupid form, send pictures, don’t forget with proof of purchase, and make the “customer” feel like they are a special snowflake. When (speaking for my experiences) 50% of the time it’s user error, but I can’t say that. Why? Because then I’m just being an asshole, pissed because “you” didn’t get the part form my shop. (Whew I needed to exercise that demon.) Honestly I had a guy last week tell me there must be something wrong with his i9 hub or sram cassette because it “couldn’t go on”, I have no love for i9 and would love to blame them, but I knew this was going to be his fault. Sure as shit he couldn’t put on a sram cassette. It’s fucking one piece it goes on one way!

Well stop specing fucking shimano brakes then and dropper posts that fail in a season.

I don't think the mail-order-a-bike-directly industry has matured and companies that are leaving the customer out in the cold are doing the wrong thing. It's easy to wash your hands of it, but they full well know the customer is screwed because the component mfrs won't work with the customer.

 

[Gary]

I am pretty sure that in the US e.g. Apple would warranty a defective display on one of their phones and not send you to the chinese manufacturer of it. So why does the bike industry do something different?

Simply put. Because in the land of freedom they can?

This also answers the rant from @Jm_

 

[vinny4130]

Jm_ I agree with you. We are a service shop we fix things “you” can’t or won’t, if we sold it we back it. If it is from somewhere else and it’s a warranty someone needs to compensate customer or manufacturer.

Gary & iRider it’s not as simple because apple owns the store your walking into. With its own product all you need it a legitimate receipt. The costs to the store dealing with the issue is built in to the profit of the initial sale(s). Why is it insulting to the customer that hasn’t spent a penny to receive a charge? If we get compensation we don’t double charge. It’s like complaining to one restaurant about a sandwich you ate last week expecting a replacement sandwich form a different place because both restaurants use boars head meat.

 

[iRider]

Gary & iRider it’s not as simple because apple owns the store your walking into. With its own product all you need it a legitimate receipt. The costs to the store dealing with the issue is built in to the profit of the initial sale(s). Why is it insulting to the customer that hasn’t spent a penny to receive a charge? If we get compensation we don’t double charge. It’s like complaining to one restaurant about a sandwich you ate last week expecting a replacement sandwich form a different place because both restaurants use boars head meat.

We are not disagreeing. I don't think a shop that has no association with the brand should take care of the warranty claim free of charge. If e.g. Intense sold the bike to you they are IMO (and according to European laws) responsible to take care of the warranty claim and not some LBS.

 

[Gary]

Gary & iRider it’s not as simple because apple owns the store your walking into. With its own product all you need it a legitimate receipt. The costs to the store dealing with the issue is built in to the profit of the initial sale(s). Why is it insulting to the customer that hasn’t spent a penny to receive a charge? If we get compensation we don’t double charge. It’s like complaining to one restaurant about a sandwich you ate last week expecting a replacement sandwich form a different place because both restaurants use boars head meat.

I have absolutely no idea why this reply is relevant to anything I said.

I've never owned an apple product and probably never will. I have been in one apple store in my life. A few years back when my (then) pre-teen daughter took me into a newly opened one to show me how weird they and the people who went into them were. I agreed and we left before I'd even looked at a single product. TBH I couldn't even comprehend how it was a retail premises.
apple have to conform to exactly the same consumer law here all retailers do.
The US doesn't have the same consumer law we do. Now you know this fact my last reply will make more sense to you.

 

[mykel]

What is BS is a mfg not standing behind a product unless you go though your LBS or some other middle-man.

If I have a valid receipt showing product and date of purchase that should be enough for warranty.

Period.

Anything less is nothing but an abdication of their responsibility.

I can think of no other high value consumer product I own and have had to have warranty work done where I have to go through a point of purchase for warranty other than a car, and that is a manufacturer run dealership, so not really applicable.

For example, my other passion is backwoods camping and canoeing - you know a backpack, canoe and see you in 10 days....
Not for any tent, sleeping bag, gear or technical clothing I have had warranty work done over the last 35 plus years including...
The North Face
Mountain Hardware
Eureka
Sea to Summit
Exped
Big Agnes
MSR
etc - all done with direct contact between me and the company - NEVER any point of sale involved.

Just my opinion, and as always it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[vinny4130]

I’m sorry to have offended your non apple-ness, I guess it sounded like the same thing I have heard a number of times before, I’m sorry to Gary and iRider for missing the point.

 

[canadmos]

What is BS is a mfg not standing behind a product unless you go though your LBS or some other middle-man.

If I have a valid receipt showing product and date of purchase that should be enough for warranty.

Period.

Anything less is nothing but an abdication of their responsibility.

I can think of no other high value consumer product I own and have had to have warranty work done where I have to go through a point of purchase for warranty other than a car, and that is a manufacturer run dealership, so not really applicable.

For example, my other passion is backwoods camping and canoeing - you know a backpack, canoe and see you in 10 days....
Not for any tent, sleeping bag, gear or technical clothing I have had warranty work done over the last 35 plus years including...
The North Face
Mountain Hardware
Eureka
Sea to Summit
Exped
Big Agnes
MSR
etc - all done with direct contact between me and the company - NEVER any point of sale involved.

Just my opinion, and as always it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

And let's just be honest, if we could just deal with our own waranty issues ourselves and directly with the manufacturer or distributor, it'd save EVERYONE time and frustration.

Dealing with warranty stuff through a shop has, at least in my experience, been a complete royal pain in the ass. Sometimes I just say screw it and buy new stuff. Even with product that the shop sold me, its usually still a painful process.

 

[iRider]

And let's just be honest, if we could just deal with our own waranty issues ourselves and directly with the manufacturer or distributor, it'd save EVERYONE time and frustration.

Then these manufacturers should also cut out the middle man and sell direct. Or for what "service" do I pay extra when going to a brick and mortar store?

Dealing with warranty stuff through a shop has, at least in my experience, been a complete royal pain in the ass. Sometimes I just say screw it and buy new stuff. Even with product that the shop sold me, its usually still a painful process.

Then you don't have a good LBS. Previously I have been taken care of well by my at that time LBS. Dropped the defective product off and they take care of shipping, communicating with the manufacturer and such. Granted, I usually don't cause them a lot of work because I have taken the part off the bike already and cleaned it. All delays experienced were related to the manufacturer and not the LBS.

 

[Jm_]

And let's just be honest, if we could just deal with our own waranty issues ourselves and directly with the manufacturer or distributor, it'd save EVERYONE time and frustration.

Dealing with warranty stuff through a shop has, at least in my experience, been a complete royal pain in the ass. Sometimes I just say screw it and buy new stuff. Even with product that the shop sold me, its usually still a painful process.

And when the mfr refuses to work with me and I've exhausted other methods, I still just ship my broken ass stuff back to them, like Race Face cranks.

 

[sethimus]

Is it fair to assume that there are no rules for this kind of stuff in the US?

but you have FREEDOM™!!!
that's way better than those socialist consumer protection laws those commies in europe have!

 

[canadmos]

Then these manufacturers should also cut out the middle man and sell direct. Or for what "service" do I pay extra when going to a brick and mortar store?



Then you don't have a good LBS. Previously I have been taken care of well by my at that time LBS. Dropped the defective product off and they take care of shipping, communicating with the manufacturer and such. Granted, I usually don't cause them a lot of work because I have taken the part off the bike already and cleaned it. All delays experienced were related to the manufacturer and not the LBS.

Won't argue there, majority of LBS do in fact suck. Using them to warranty something just ads too much time and complexity.

Compared to a recent experience dealing directly with Transition; I opened the warranty case myself, responded directly to their questions and request for evidence. Easy. Had that gone through a shop, it would have been a weeks long process, not a day or two.

 

[HardtailHack]

Surely you just buy an identical new part with the money you saved from buying direct then in a couple of months take the broken part to the LBS and say you were JRA........

 

[Happymtb.fr]

@iRider do you make any income when dealing with a warranty claim?

 

[iRider]

@iRider do you make any income when dealing with a warranty claim?

Not sure what you mean?

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Not sure what you mean?

If a customer comes to your shop and has Shimano brakes or a Reverb to warranty. You take it of the bike, clean it, fill the papers and send it to the manufacturer. Then you might even put the repaired or exchanged product back on the bike. I wonder if you get paid by the manufacturer for that work?

 

[StiHacka]

Then you might even put the repaired or exchanged product back on the bike. I wonder if you get paid by the manufacturer for that work?

 

[iRider]

If a customer comes to your shop and has Shimano brakes or a Reverb to warranty. You take it of the bike, clean it, fill the papers and send it to the manufacturer. Then you might even put the repaired or exchanged product back on the bike. I wonder if you get paid by the manufacturer for that work?

That is a misunderstanding, I don’t have a shop, I am bringing the things to my LBS if I bought it there. They have taken care of things from there on. I try to cause them as little work as possible by bringing in just the cleaned part though.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Ok, thanks @iRider and sorry for my misunderstanding!

Does somebody knows how it goes for the shops?
If the shop doesn't get anything for the job caused by warranty, it could explain why some shops don't really want to take care of it... on the other hand I have seen shops taking care of a warranty case for a product bought in another country.

 

[OGRipper]

Seems like some of you are confusing the obligations of the part manufacturer with the obligations of the company that sells you a whole bike. Do you think a bike company should have to provide warranty service for parts it didn't manufacture? Does the answer change depending on whether the bike was sold through a dealer or direct to the consumer?

 

[velocipedist]

Seems like some of you are confusing the obligations of the part manufacturer with the obligations of the company that sells you a whole bike. Do you think a bike company should have to provide warranty service for parts it didn't manufacture? Does the answer change depending on whether the bike was sold through a dealer or direct to the consumer?

Jurisdiction where it was sold seems huge to me.

As such in Europe, yes the bike manufacturer, if consumer direct, would be required to to provide warranty.
In the land of Freedumb, the is no such obligation let alone expectation that the manufacturer cover warranty on oem parts (in the lizardy world of bikes that is).

 

[iRider]

Ok, thanks @iRider and sorry for my misunderstanding!

Does somebody knows how it goes for the shops?
If the shop doesn't get anything for the job caused by warranty, it could explain why some shops don't really want to take care of it... on the other hand I have seen shops taking care of a warranty case for a product bought in another country.

When living in Oregon my LBS was also a big online store selling tons of Yetis 575s. One year basically all of them came back with cracked rear ends. Yeti did stand behind their product, but all the man hours of the shop were not reimbursed by Yeti. Unfortunately this also fell together with a large recall by Mavic of one of their road wheelsets that the shop had sold tons of. Again, product was exchanged but even shipping costs back to the customer were not reimbursed. IMO that was what got them in trouble and left them with too little money in the bank which ultimately caused them going out of business after the crisis hit in 2009.
Not sure if all manufacturers and shops handle it like this, but they were really taking care of their customers and in these cases were losing money on the sales.

 

[Jm_]

Seems like some of you are confusing the obligations of the part manufacturer with the obligations of the company that sells you a whole bike. Do you think a bike company should have to provide warranty service for parts it didn't manufacture?

Um, yeah, because you didn't buy the parts from the individual component manufacturers. When my car's brakes malfunction I don't go to autozone or send them to brembo, I go back to the dealer. And if you didn't know, your car comes hobbled together with parts from all over, brembo makes lots of OEM non-monoblock calipers, ZF and Tremec transmissions, etc...

 

[OGRipper]

Um, yeah, because you didn't buy the parts from the individual component manufacturers. When my car's brakes malfunction I don't go to autozone or send them to brembo, I go back to the dealer. And if you didn't know, your car comes hobbled together with parts from all over, brembo makes lots of OEM non-monoblock calipers, ZF and Tremec transmissions, etc...

Sure, but you didn't buy that car direct from the manufacturer, you bought it from an authorized dealer, and we're talking about cutting the dealer out of the equation.

 

[sethimus]

Sure, but you didn't buy that car direct from the manufacturer, you bought it from an authorized dealer, and we're talking about cutting the dealer out of the equation.

so what do you call a direct sales company if it's not a "dealer"? and what makes the difference to jenson or CRC? and why should that matter anyhow to a potential customer? if you cut out the "dealer" in that equation that makes you the dealer...

 

[StiHacka]

Tesla sells their cars direct, too.

 

[sundaydoug]

This is all part of the roll-of-the-dice that is buying bikes direct from the manufacturer and cutting the bike shop out. Sure, you can save a lot of money and buy direct, but if problems with the components arise you might be on your own. Some of the components hanging on your bike are backed by consumer-friendly companies, others not so much.

Having worked in this industry I can tell you that when it comes to product support in general a lot depends on who you speak with and how the conversation goes. Being reasonable, patient, and not being a dick goes a long way.

I checked Canyon USA's warranty info, seems like it's similar to Intense's:

Certain components may have limited warranties of their own that are offered by the component manufacturer, in which case we will refer you to the component manufacturer for service. Be sure to retain the component-specific materials that came with your new bike.

 

[mykel]

Still bullshit.
I don't care who the part comes from.
All I want is the mfg to stand behind their product.

It does not cost the mfg more for warranty work depending upon where the part was sold.

The mfg gets a set price from no matter who they sell to for resale.
They have made their money, and should have any warranty costs built in.

If I can get the part to the mfg, then they should be able to deal with warranty.


The EU for all of its faults is pretty good for standing up for consumer rights.
We need a bit of that in NA as - The consumer is the reason for the products existence. They seem to have forgotten this simple fact.

 

[sundaydoug]

I don't care who the part comes from.
All I want is the mfg to stand behind their product.

Agreed.

Problem is that you can be sure consumer-direct brands aren't choosing OE parts based on the warranty support of the component manufacturers. They're meeting price points just like everyone else, plain and simple.

I think Jm_ summed it up pretty accurately earlier:

Seems like this is the 1000lb gorilla/nasty-side of direct sales that has probably not yet fully reared it's head

 

[OGRipper]

The mfg gets a set price from no matter who they sell to for resale.
They have made their money, and should have any warranty costs built in.

I agree that manufacturers should stand behind their products, but do you really think they charge the same price for a particular product regardless of the customer, volume, sales channel, etc.? That's just not how it works.

 

[mykel]

I agree that manufacturers should stand behind their products, but do you really think they charge the same price for a particular product regardless of the customer, volume, sales channel, etc.? That's just not how it works.

They have made their money, and should have any warranty costs built in.

 

[norbar]

I am pretty sure that in the US e.g. Apple would warranty a defective display on one of their phones and not send you to the chinese manufacturer of it. So why does the bike industry do something different?

Apple? You mean the company that claims their 2500$ ipads come bent as a feature?

 

[norbar]

This is all part of the roll-of-the-dice that is buying bikes direct from the manufacturer and cutting the bike shop out. Sure, you can save a lot of money and buy direct, but if problems with the components arise you might be on your own. Some of the components hanging on your bike are backed by consumer-friendly companies, others not so much.

Having worked in this industry I can tell you that when it comes to product support in general a lot depends on who you speak with and how the conversation goes. Being reasonable, patient, and not being a dick goes a long way.

I checked Canyon USA's warranty info, seems like it's similar to Intense's:

Certain components may have limited warranties of their own that are offered by the component manufacturer, in which case we will refer you to the component manufacturer for service. Be sure to retain the component-specific materials that came with your new bike.

Aaaah Canyon the company that claims play on their DH frame is not an issue as it was designed that way... Why I'm not surprised its them and FRO Intense who always thought warranty is something idiots wanted