I never thought I'd say this but this forum is a shadow of it's former self. Stinkle tries hard but ocassionally sees the other side (not often and usually not meaning too), N8 is, well, N8....Damn True is sporadic and far too easily seen off. The other ...cough.....and I hesitate to use this term as they are pretty unworthy of its use.... frothers, aren't up to the mark. Therefore, I proclaim this forum won for the forces of enlightenment and the frothers are cordially invited to go home and masturbate into their Condi Rice pillows. 
