[Westy]

Ok, but in a practical application the amount of counter steering is relatively imperceptible,yes ?

So then wouldn't it make more sense to tell her to lean ? Unless of course you count shifting your hips or dropping a leg as counter steering. To me, counter steering is something that I would pretty much only do on a fast wide dirt road where I would purposely turn the bar in the opposite direction while slightly leaning in the direction of the turn.

Assuming a theoretical wheel like a pizza cutter, with an infinitely small contact patch, just leaning does nothing as an extremely small contact patch cannot impart torque to move your center of mass. Now a bike does have a contact patch with some width, albeit a very squirmy one. I seriously doubt it has the ability to generate enough of a moment to do anything in a timely fashion. However, countersteering will work at any speed, even if extremely small. I would guess that the best you could do steering wise using the "just lean" method would be what you could do riding no hands. And no hands requires a decent amount of upper body movement that few people do during proper riding. Therefore I maintain that quick handling, no matter the speed, requires some level of countersteering.

I know I countersteer at pretty much any speed. I have thought about it and experimented to the point of being very confident about it.

From a mathematical perspective, speed affects the dynamics of a bike, but it does not cause any fundamental changes in the dynamics. If you need to countersteer at high speeds, you need to countersteer at low speeds.


This explains it better than I can given beer thirty was a while ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

 

[Toshi]

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

Admittedly there's much more gyroscopic effect on motorcycles. I imagine steering bikes while riding hands free involves invoking that "wiggling" the above link describes for the motorcycle with bars welded to the frame, and then manipulating that into getting the bike along the outside of one's center of mass... or countersteering, in other words.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

I would guess that the best you could do steering wise using the "just lean" method would be what you could do riding no hands. And no hands requires a decent amount of upper body movement that few people do during proper riding.

I'm a firm believer in using your hips to turn. You should be able to ride with just your palms touching the bar, leaving room for very little input from your arms. Your hands are just there to guide the front end and shift/brake.

 

[jstuhlman]

at least you have foothills and moravian sugar cookies in w-s

 

[eric strt6]

up to 500 acres burning now

 

[Westy]

I'm a firm believer in using your hips to turn. You should be able to ride with just your palms touching the bar, leaving room for very little input from your arms. Your hands are just there to guide the front end and shift/brake.

You can steer and counter steer using just uneven force on your palms. Like Toshi's link suggests, the steering on a pedal bike is so light few people really understand what they are actually doing.

This whole just lean into it is the same bad advice as people saying just pull up on the bars to lighten the front end. It is the equivalent of teaching someone to jump by telling them to just lifting their feet really fast. The reality is you must drop your COG, push really hard then pull up. We all tend to boil down the dynamics of what we do on a regular basis to the action with the most amplitude, most of what we do is controlled subconsciously and subtle enough that we don't even realize what we are doing.

 

[jdcamb]

I suppose I should look for that at teh Korean grocery in NY?

Denver is a big enough city to possibly have a Asain Market? I would start there....

 

[Nick]

Denver is a big enough city to possibly have a Asain Market? I would start there....

Yes, there is a really good place on Lawrence & 19th street.

 

[boostindoubles]

Cougar Creek fire now is in front of Mt Adams.

 

[jdcamb]

Yes, there is a really good place on Lawrence & 19th street.

Thanks for your help.

 

[StiHacka]

at least you have foothills and moravian sugar cookies in w-s

Wait, wut? I was born and raised in Moravia and I never heard of those.

 

[jstuhlman]

Wait, wut? I was born and raised in Moravia and I never heard of those.

http://www.salembaking.com/category/s-moravian-cookies/

 

[SkaredShtles]

Yes, there is a really good place on Lawrence & 19th street.

Lawrence and 19th? Might as well be Wyoming.

 

[StiHacka]

http://www.salembaking.com/category/s-moravian-cookies/

Eh, those have been freedomized. This is what real Moravian cookies look like: https://www.google.com/search?q=moravske+kolace&espv=2&biw=1378&bih=839&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI9oPe-9a2xwIVyDI-Ch2uTA-B#tbm=isch&q=moravske+kolace++site:cz

 

[SkaredShtles]

Eh, those have been freedomized. This is what real Moravian cookies look like: https://www.google.com/search?q=moravske+kolace&espv=2&biw=1378&bih=839&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI9oPe-9a2xwIVyDI-Ch2uTA-B#tbm=isch&q=moravske+kolace++site:cz

Those prunes or dates in the middle?

 

[Pesqueeb]

http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/wildfire/2015/08/19/50-acre-fire-evacuates-town--twisp/32021205/

 

[SkaredShtles]

Denver is a big enough city to possibly have a Asain Market? I would start there....

So... which one?

http://www.hmart.com/shopnow/shopnow_newsub_midg.asp?t=1120&m=1174

 

[jdcamb]

So... which one?

http://www.hmart.com/shopnow/shopnow_newsub_midg.asp?t=1120&m=1174

Sempio. Buy enough to make a couple batches of Korean Coleslaw.

 

[eric strt6]

Um Houston we have a problem. The Telsa fire near my house is now over 1,500 acres burned in under 6 hours. I'm sure glad I'm on the upwind side of this puppy. Its only two ridges over from Lake Del Valle where I go Kayaking...

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

http://www.salembaking.com/category/s-moravian-cookies/

Can't tell you how many boxes of these I plowed through one winter.

 

[StiHacka]

Those prunes or dates in the middle?

Prunes.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

So I went out for a trail ride and since it was drizzling just a wee bit I had the whole place to myself. Which was cool.

But for what ever reason, maybe I'm wearing some kind of bio tracking device, another Yellow Jacket stung me on the stomach. Really getting tired of these little fuckers.

I rode about four miles yesterday on a narrow trail in stinging nettles. Long pants next time.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Prunes.

My mom makes these things.

 

[skibunny24]

Ok, but in a practical application the amount of counter steering is relatively imperceptible,yes ?

So then wouldn't it make more sense to tell her to lean ? Unless of course you count shifting your hips or dropping a leg as counter steering. To me, counter steering is something that I would pretty much only do on a fast wide dirt road where I would purposely turn the bar in the opposite direction while slightly leaning in the direction of the turn.

I feel like the corners are so tight that if I lean I will smack my head right into a tree!

Assuming a theoretical wheel like a pizza cutter, with an infinitely small contact patch, just leaning does nothing as an extremely small contact patch cannot impart torque to move your center of mass. Now a bike does have a contact patch with some width, albeit a very squirmy one. I seriously doubt it has the ability to generate enough of a moment to do anything in a timely fashion. However, countersteering will work at any speed, even if extremely small. I would guess that the best you could do steering wise using the "just lean" method would be what you could do riding no hands. And no hands requires a decent amount of upper body movement that few people do during proper riding. Therefore I maintain that quick handling, no matter the speed, requires some level of countersteering.

I know I countersteer at pretty much any speed. I have thought about it and experimented to the point of being very confident about it.

From a mathematical perspective, speed affects the dynamics of a bike, but it does not cause any fundamental changes in the dynamics. If you need to countersteer at high speeds, you need to countersteer at low speeds.


This explains it better than I can given beer thirty was a while ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Wel. This is a lot of advice! Guess I should go test it all out! Tomorrowwwww! Thanks all!

 

[Westy]

I feel like the corners are so tight that if I lean I will smack my head right into a tree!



Wel. This is a lot of advice! Guess I should go test it all out! Tomorrowwwww! Thanks all!

I've found that if I am working on a certain skill to ride the same section over to basically control one of variables.

 

[skibunny24]

I've found that if I am working on a certain skill to ride the same section over to basically control one of variables.

You mean, practice makes perfect? This is what I'm thinking... it's a pretty rude trail really. Makes me think I need to ride it more often every time I get out there. Fortunately, that is possible right now, so I am taking advantage!

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

I've found that if I am working on a certain skill to ride the same section over to basically control one of variables.

I learned this from racing DH. We would session sections of the track that were particularly difficult over and over. I still like to do this from time to time on regular trail rides to keep my skills honed. Even on the super-easy, everyone gets a trophy, trails I can find a corner to practice. There's one 180˚ berm that I can just about drag the end of my bar.

Cornering and riding rocks are some of my favorite trail activities.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

I feel like the corners are so tight that if I lean I will smack my head right into a tree!

Are you riding with the saddle up or down ?

How hard you grip the bar can adversely affect your ability to carry speed through a tight corner, even a bermed one. Too hard and it will cause your shoulders to tense up. Try to stay loose on the bars and keep your shoulders relaxed.

Look as far ahead as possible. You should be looking at the exit by the time you enter the corner.

If the corner is really steep and tight shift your weight back and to the opposite side of the saddle. Opposite the direction or the corner. That is, if turning left your weight should be on the right side of the saddle. This will force the bike down and away from you. At the same time slightly twist your hips in the direction of the corner.

Find a corner/berm that's giving you fits and practice it several times. Go slow at first until you get the mechanics down then gradually increase your speed.

 

[slyfink]

I feel like the corners are so tight that if I lean I will smack my head right into a tree!

I think this is what the 'Canadian kickout' is for... do your countersteering before the tree.

 

[skibunny24]

Are you riding with the saddle up or down ?

How hard you grip the bar can adversely affect your ability to carry speed through a tight corner, even a bermed one. Too hard and it will cause your shoulders to tense up. Try to stay loose on the bars and keep your shoulders relaxed.

Look as far ahead as possible. You should be looking at the exit by the time you enter the corner.

If the corner is really steep and tight shift your weight back and to the opposite side of the saddle. Opposite the direction or the corner. That is, if turning left your weight should be on the right side of the saddle. This will force the bike down and away from you. At the same time slightly twist your hips in the direction of the corner.

Find a corner/berm that's giving you fits and practice it several times. Go slow at first until you get the mechanics down then gradually increase your speed.

Saddle up, it's XC with lots of ups and downs. I do hunch up my shoulders, so I will pay attention to the grip today. Also will try out the weight shift--totally makes sense! I'll have to report back! I'm so excited to go try out all the tips from this thread! Just one... more... hour!

 

[Westy]

Saddle up, it's XC with lots of ups and downs. I do hunch up my shoulders, so I will pay attention to the grip today. Also will try out the weight shift--totally makes sense! I'll have to report back! I'm so excited to go try out all the tips from this thread! Just one... more... hour!

Little know fact that you will go 13.4% faster if you shout BRAAAAP at the right times.

 

[skibunny24]

Woo hoo! You guys rock! The turns are so sharp I was looking too short--once I remembered to look further around the bed, I was good to go! Weight shift seemed to already just be in place sort of naturally, but I paid attention to it tried to go a little more dynamic with it. It was fun to play! Still need practice, and would definitely have gone faster with some, "BRAP, BRRAAAP!"

 

[Westy]

Woo hoo! You guys rock! The turns are so sharp I was looking too short--once I remembered to look further around the bed, I was good to go! Weight shift seemed to already just be in place sort of naturally, but I paid attention to it tried to go a little more dynamic with it. It was fun to play! Still need practice, and would definitely have gone faster with some, "BRAP, BRRAAAP!"

Wumpus posted this in the random picture thread. It reminded me of riding my favorite but now closed trails that was tight as fuck. I know tucking in on the bike lowers your center of gravity, not sure how that affects handling, but it does give you more clearance when leaning in to tight corners.

 

[jdcamb]

Wumpus posted this in the random picture thread. It reminded me of riding my favorite but now closed trails that was tight as fuck. I know tucking in on the bike lowers your center of gravity, not sure how that affects handling, but it does give you more clearance when leaning in to tight corners.

Elbows down! I had a coach who would yell that at me. Lance Landry. Man was a genius.

 

[Westy]

Elbows down! I had a coach who would yell that at me. Lance Landry. Man was a genius.

I once had a doctor ask me if I was cutting myself because I had a bunch of linear parallel scars/scabs on my shoulders. I wasn't cutting myself, it was from brushing up against trees at speed in corners, back when single track was mother fucking single track.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I once had a doctor ask me if I was cutting myself because I had a bunch of linear parallel scars/scabs on my shoulders. I wasn't cutting myself, it was from brushing up against trees at speed in corners, back when single track was mother fucking single track.

Now get off my lawn...

 

[Westy]

Now get off my lawn...

Yeah yeah yeah. The world is a much better place now that every trailed is a groomed path for noobs and giant bro-sleds.

 

[StiHacka]

Fuck groomed trails.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I approve of your curmudgeonliness.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Woo hoo! You guys rock! The turns are so sharp I was looking too short--once I remembered to look further around the bed, I was good to go! Weight shift seemed to already just be in place sort of naturally, but I paid attention to it tried to go a little more dynamic with it. It was fun to play! Still need practice, and would definitely have gone faster with some, "BRAP, BRRAAAP!"

Bravo !

I usually shout "Brapppp as I power wheelie out of corners. Ok, more like a low mumble than shouting these days.