[caputo1989]

I go to the rock gym at least 6 hours a week and ride rollers. I should look into the Xfit thing too, but i havn't had arm pump since i started climbing rock. The rollers are nice becaue it takes balance to keep on them.

 

[reflux]

Those are all true, unless you're someone who actually likes to ride the bike instead of having the bike ride you. Not a chance in hell you can throw the bike around where YOU want it to go without having excellent core, back and trap strength. If anything, I would almost say those are the top 3 weight exercises from a DH standpoint. You can build up your pedaling with cardio, but to make yourself stronger with an objective of being faster, you have to be able to move the bike around with more control and for longer.

Oh, I seemed to have missed this the first time around.

"...instead of having the bike ride you." I have no clue what the hell you're talking about, unless this is some sort of e-gnarcore slapdown attempt. Wait, it is.

Please do yourself a huge favor and re-read my post. Olympic lifts (aka. hang cleans, power cleans, yada yada yada) are fantastic exercises that build power. Power where? Throughout the posterior chain. The muscle groups include the glutes, hams, quads, erector spinae, and traps. You're right, no application whatsoever to cycling.

I have warmed to the idea of designated "core" exercises, but more of as an afterthought and not a central part of a program.

 

[punkassean]

http://navyseals.com/crossfit-workout-day

in addition/alternative to crossfit.com.

I love crossfit. I was doing the men's health year long fitness planner, as I've wanted to gain size forever, and cut fat. I did it for about 4-5 months up until the endurance "month" (it's actually two...so it's more than a year...odd) and switched to crossfit since I figured crossfit is partially about endurance and lighter weights vs. pure heavy lifting. HOLY CRAP. I've seen more results in the past 2 then I have in the first 5. Crossfit really works, and it's helped me blast through my training plateaus. It works because it takes you out of your comfort zone, away from your bicep curls and lat pulldowns and pushes you into extremely high-rep, high intensity workouts. I honestly can't think of better training for DH racing, where you generally work at an extremely high rate for an extremely short period of time (near max heart rate for 4 minutes). You don't gain size as much as tone/endurance.

Now, I suppose if somebody tailored a xfit to DH/cycling it would be the best, but regular xfit is a decent substitute.

Glad you're stoked on CF! it's like church for me, I swear I go nuts if I don't get in there 3-4 times a week. I find myself recommending it to the bike and moto athletes I work with all the time. It's so effective at keeping you well-rounded and in great shape overall. I feel it's best attribute is the environment or camaraderie and motivation, something all other gyms/programs seem to lack. CF just keeps me so motivated, even after almost two years I still love it and look forward to workouts. If I saw a person in a regular gym performing a crossfit workout at crossfit intensity I can just see everyone else staring like WTF?! Not only that, other people would be in your way, preventing you from going 100% all out. Such a great program....

 

[Stan_Ireland]

Crossfit is amazing. I started it last July and am delighted with the results so far. I just feel more powerful on the bike, both xc and downhill. Far less fatigue in the legs and arms and my cardio has improved ten fold. I mix crossfit with a lot of running (up to 10 miles max) and of course biking at every opportunity. I do find you need more recovery time after crossfit as opposed to biking though which is the only downfall.

 

[punkassean]

Crossfit is amazing. I started it last July and am delighted with the results so far. I just feel more powerful on the bike, both xc and downhill. Far less fatigue in the legs and arms and my cardio has improved ten fold. I mix crossfit with a lot of running (up to 10 miles max) and of course biking at every opportunity. I do find you need more recovery time after crossfit as opposed to biking though which is the only downfall.

I've been crossfitting for about 3 years and my recovery time has gotten a lot faster. I still get sore though which proves it's still working. I find 4 days a week when im not riding much and 2-3 days a week when I am riding a lot is about right.

 

[Stan_Ireland]

Its addictive i tell ya

I have my first race of the year mid January so i cant wait to see if there is any improvement over last years results.

 

[bikejames]

Just to inject some sport science into the conversation - one workout is not a "program". A program is where you evaluate where your weaknesses are, where you want to be and then design 3-4 workouts that systematically get you there. You need to purposfully manipulate exercises, sets, reps, load and rest periods to get the results you are looking for.

It is like building a house - first you decide what type of house you want, then you get a plan and build it according to the plan. You don't want to be working on the roof before you have even laid the foundation!

CrossFit is o.k. but by their own admission they are not for athletes who need specialized fitness. Same with P90X. How many other athletes follow a "general fitness" routine and expect to be at their best for their sport?

If you want to truly excel at DH riding you need to work on hip mobility, single leg strength, upper body strength and anaerobic endurance. Some of my favorite exercises are -

- Kettle Bell swings
- Single leg deadlifts
- Bulgarian Split squats
- Side Presses
- Turkish Get Ups
- Push Ups
- Chin Ups
- Single arm inverted rows

Doing a month at 3 X 8 reps, a month at 4 X 6 reps and a month at 5 X 5 reps is a decent way to switch up sets and reps. Also, variety is grossly over rated. You would do better sticking with the same basic exercises and switching sets and reps than doing the same sets and reps and switching exercises.

In fact, as an athlete how you create the movement is more important than just about anything else. There are movement patterns behind everything you do on your bike and when you exercise you should be using your workouts as a way to practice that quality movement. That is how you maximize your transfer from the gym to the trail.

Combo drills are probably the best way to increase DH specific cardio. You can find a couple of good demos at my blog www.bikejames.com. Just do a search for Combo Drill and 3 or 4 will pop up.

Hope this helps...

 

[punkassean]

Just to inject some sport science into the conversation - one workout is not a "program". A program is where you evaluate where your weaknesses are, where you want to be and then design 3-4 workouts that systematically get you there. You need to purposfully manipulate exercises, sets, reps, load and rest periods to get the results you are looking for.

It is like building a house - first you decide what type of house you want, then you get a plan and build it according to the plan. You don't want to be working on the roof before you have even laid the foundation!

CrossFit is o.k. but by their own admission they are not for athletes who need specialized fitness. Same with P90X. How many other athletes follow a "general fitness" routine and expect to be at their best for their sport?

If you want to truly excel at DH riding you need to work on hip mobility, single leg strength, upper body strength and anaerobic endurance. Some of my favorite exercises are -

- Kettle Bell swings
- Single leg deadlifts
- Bulgarian Split squats
- Side Presses
- Turkish Get Ups
- Push Ups
- Chin Ups
- Single arm inverted rows

Doing a month at 3 X 8 reps, a month at 4 X 6 reps and a month at 5 X 5 reps is a decent way to switch up sets and reps. Also, variety is grossly over rated. You would do better sticking with the same basic exercises and switching sets and reps than doing the same sets and reps and switching exercises.

In fact, as an athlete how you create the movement is more important than just about anything else. There are movement patterns behind everything you do on your bike and when you exercise you should be using your workouts as a way to practice that quality movement. That is how you maximize your transfer from the gym to the trail.

Combo drills are probably the best way to increase DH specific cardio. You can find a couple of good demos at my blog www.bikejames.com. Just do a search for Combo Drill and 3 or 4 will pop up.

Hope this helps...

Hey James, Thanks for chiming in. With your credentials obviously your feedback is very much appreciated. I don’t know exactly how familiar you are with Crossfit so I feel compelled to reply to your post with what I do know to be true from my experiences. 

Have you ever seen the movie Along Came Polly? There's a scene where Ben Stiller's and Jennifer Anniston's characters are arguing about life planning. Jennifer swears she doesn't have a plan, and Ben argues she's on the 'no-plan plan'. Well, Crossfit is the no-plan plan of fitness, or at least the closest thing to it a Regular Joe has access to. The whole concept of CF is to vary the exercises as much as possible and avoid too much routine. So yes, it's a 'program', but by and large it's the non-program program, if you will. Here’s a short list of reasons why I think CF is a great ‘program’ for our purposes, and many others.

*Reasonably affordable (~$150/month)
*Very accessible (CF 'boxes' are popping up everywhere)
*Incredibly challenging, yet very fun
*Most importantly, the movements are relevant

CF costs quite a bit than a 'regular' gym membership which makes it inaccessible to many, especially younger athletes with limited income. And a personal trainer capable of the level of work you speak of (in a one-on-one environment) costs as much as 10-20 times more than Crossfit, putting it way out of reach for most. Of course there's nothing stopping anyone from educating themselves and working out on their own. You can build a nice, capable home gym with everything you really need for not too much money. But none of this addresses the single greatest advantage of Crossfit. Its environment. The experience is unique and not even a one-on-one with a trainer can replicate it. CF brings out one's competitive side and makes training as much fun as racing. Each workout is not only a challenge against yourself but a challenge against the other members of your gym, and even the entire global CF community. You can track your results against others on the CF mainsite and get an idea of where you stand. On so many levels this motivates you to train harder and do better. CF makes working out fun, really fun, something most other 'programs' cannot do. Even after almost 3 years of going 3-4 days/week I still wake up in the morning stoked to go to CF after work. And I am definitely in much better shap, riding and otherwise, now than I was when I started going. The competitive environment is also very much one of camaraderie, it's sort of like a team sport in that when one person shines it reflects well on the whole team so every one is behind it. It's a very healthy form of competition, everyone pushes each other to do better and work harder, you inevitably put in more than you would on your own.

My overall point is this. Crossfit may not be the best ‘program’ for extremely specialized needs but for the broad spectrum it’s proven to very effective. It may not be 'perfect' for DH but it's still a very, very good option. CF not only incorporates virtually all of the exercises you’ve recommended but also many other similar movements. Hip mobility is probably the single most emphasized thing in CF, but we also focus on mobility in general and dedicate a lot of time to teaching about, and implementing PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation). I wouldn't recommend CF as wholeheartedly for XC racers because their needs are quit a bit more specialized than those of a DH racer. However I do think an XC racer could still benefit from 1-2 days/week of CF as a basic weight training program and to help improve bone density if nothing else.

If I were, by some stroke of magic, incredibly motivated to train super hard, by myself, and if I were knowledgeable enough to set my own realistic goals and devise a plan to achieve them, or if you were local to me, and I could afford you, and I had championship aspirations, I'd surely be giving you a call. but I, and 90+% of the DH riding public, aren't really in that position, so I think CF makes very good sense for many of us. Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[bikejames]

This is a tough one because it is hard for me to state my true feelings without people feeling like I am insulting them and their decision to do CrossFit. The truth is that while it may have been a decent training program, the quality control has dropped tremendously and the emphasis on work capacity at the expense of form is scary. There are hundreds and hundreds of injuries from CF workouts and facilities which is not cool.

All you have to do is pay them money and you are a CF facility. All you have to do is pay them money and then you are CF certified. No test, just pay your $$$, show up and everyone passes.

There are some positive things that they bring, namely the camaraderie and the emphasis on freeweight and bodyweight exercises. They also emphasize anaerobic work capacity which is why DH riders who come from a traditional aerobic base training background find it to increase their DH endurance (who else said that several years ago and was called a fool for it...oh yeah, that was me).

But, when you fly the CF flag you are supporting all the terrible form, the injuries and the total lack of respect for the training process. Taking someone who can not do a bodyweight squat and having them do snatches and cleans after less than a month of training is not good.

Anyways, I did a podcast where I explained how CF is not a true training system and why it is not the best option for riders. If you want to learn more about real training principles and how they apply to our sport give it a listen:

CrossFit, P90X and the Truth About Training

And not to turn this into a sales pitch but if you are serious enough to throw down a few grand on a bike and spend time on a forum talking about riding then you are serious enough to want to get maximum transfer from the gym to the trail. My 6 month program costs less than 1 month at a CF facility (hell, I have 1 for less than $20) and they are based on the same principles I have used to help Aaron Gwin and many other DH riders excel. Cost is not an issue for those that want to have access to a MTB specific program that, BTW, has a lot of transfer to other sports and real life stuff. This idea that CF has cornered the market on broad spectrum fitness is marketing driven BS.

Again, please understand that I am not calling anyone who does CF out, as a fitness professional I have serious issues with their lack of respect for the principles of training and the injuries and bad form they propagate.

And just for the record, I have done CF workouts and done very well. I have a CF facility in town near me and was invited to the trainers workout where we did the Badger (30 full cleans with 95 pounds, 30 kipping pull ups and 400 jump ropes X 3 rounds). I beat all of the trainers at their own game finishing in around 26 minutes. You don't have to train CF to be able to succeed at CF workouts but CF workouts may not help you maximize your riding potential.

 

[punkassean]

This is a tough one because it is hard for me to state my true feelings without people feeling like I am insulting them and their decision to do CrossFit. The truth is that while it may have been a decent training program, the quality control has dropped tremendously and the emphasis on work capacity at the expense of form is scary. There are hundreds and hundreds of injuries from CF workouts and facilities which is not cool.

I for one won’t get my panties twisted, I meant it when I said that I valued your opinon, and I’d like to think I’m capable of having a debate w/o taking it personal. And obviosly your credentials exceed mine so that speaks for itself.

I see your point. The vast majority of my CF experience has taken place at the same gym, CFHQ, where it all started in Santa Cruz. Since that time CFHQ has split off into 5 local gyms in place of the original one, with a few coaches from HQ going to each new box. Because of that around here pretty much any CF you go to will be solid with very experienced trainers. In fact, our coaches spend so much time on proper technique that honestly at first I was extremely overwhelmed with some of the more complex the movements. I could perform them but not terribly well, so my coaches worked with me until I was dialed, and they still watch over me to make sure I don’t slip up. The fact that our community used to only support one CF gym but now supports 5 clearly shows how much CF has grown a over the last few years so I can see how not every CF box is as good as the next, especially given such rapid growth. That’s a very good point you bring up for sure. It’s super important for a person to feel comfortable with their coaches and if not move on to another box. I also recommend asking around before going to a specific CF, there might be another one close by that is much better.

All you have to do is pay them money and you are a CF facility. All you have to do is pay them money and then you are CF certified. No test, just pay your $$$, show up and everyone passes.

Sort of but not exactly. Anyone can pay the money to go to a level 1 cert and if they pass they can begin training, providing they have the capital to either open their own gym or find time slots at an existing local gym. I know many people who’ve failed cert’s so it’s not like once you’ve paid you’re guaranteed to pass the first time. I believe if you fail you may however redo the cert at no additional cost until you do pass. Most of the coaches at my box have many cert’s well beyond level 1 to include oly lifting, running, endurance, gymnastics, nutrition, recovery, etc… Again though, as you said, just walking into any old CF doesn’t guarantee you a trainer of any caliber beyond Level 1.

There are some positive things that they bring, namely the camaraderie and the emphasis on freeweight and bodyweight exercises. They also emphasize anaerobic work capacity which is why DH riders who come from a traditional aerobic base training background find it to increase their DH endurance (who else said that several years ago and was called a fool for it...oh yeah, that was me).

Agreed.

But, when you fly the CF flag you are supporting all the terrible form, the injuries and the total lack of respect for the training process. Taking someone who can not do a bodyweight squat and having them do snatches and cleans after less than a month of training is not good.

Yes and no. And FWIW, I don’t think I fly the flag per se so much as say openly that it works for me. But like I said above, I have a great gym with incredible coaches and perhaps not everyone has access to the same quality of gym as I do.

Anyways, I did a podcast where I explained how CF is not a true training system and why it is not the best option for riders. If you want to learn more about real training principles and how they apply to our sport give it a listen:
CrossFit, P90X and the Truth About Training

I will check it out tonight, thanks for the link. I’m not sold on P90X at all. w/o a real live trainer there you can’t be sure you’re doing the movement correctly, which is obviously bad, and w/o other people you lose the team work aspect which is a huge motivator for many. I think it sort of fits the bill as a cheap alternative if you have some prior experience and are extremely dedicated but then again after 90 days what do you do, repeat the same routine? So much for muscle confusion….

And not to turn this into a sales pitch but if you are serious enough to throw down a few grand on a bike and spend time on a forum talking about riding then you are serious enough to want to get maximum transfer from the gym to the trail. My 6 month program costs less than 1 month at a CF facility (hell, I have 1 for less than $20) and they are based on the same principles I have used to help Aaron Gwin and many other DH riders excel. Cost is not an issue for those that want to have access to a MTB specific program that, BTW, has a lot of transfer to other sports and real life stuff. This idea that CF has cornered the market on broad spectrum fitness is marketing driven BS.

It’s only a sales pitch if you put up a link, which I think you should because it’s 100% relevant to this thread and you’ve contributed plenty of great feedback thus far so IMO you’ve earned the opportunity to get some business.

Again, please understand that I am not calling anyone who does CF out, as a fitness professional I have serious issues with their lack of respect for the principles of training and the injuries and bad form they propagate.

And just for the record, I have done CF workouts and done very well. I have a CF facility in town near me and was invited to the trainers workout where we did the Badger (30 full cleans with 95 pounds, 30 kipping pull ups and 400 jump ropes X 3 rounds). I beat all of the trainers at their own game finishing in around 26 minutes. You don't have to train CF to be able to succeed at CF workouts but CF workouts may not help you maximize your riding potential.

I will say that if there’s one thing CF lacks its endurance so when it comes to ‘wind’ exercises such as the one you mention having done, cyclist such as ourselves tend to do very well. And of course you’re in great shape, aside from just endurance, so your performance is exactly what I’d have expected. And I’m confident you could take all those same trainers out and murder them on a bike. The Badger is new to me however so I have no baseline to judge your performance by and I have no idea how qualified or fit those trainers were (one of the potential downfalls of CF, as you mentioned.) I’m sure your time was really good though because as I’ve said all along, ideally your program has more to offer. But I still think realistically that CF is a very good option for many people reading this thread. Even if people can have access to your tips and an outline of your program for little money they don’t actually have face time with you every time they workout and they don’t have the community environment that helps guarantee results. It takes a dedicated individual to make that work, most of whom are already successful and at an elevated level. So it can be a bit of a catch 22.

I’m not now nor have I ever said CF is perfect. I have a short list of gripes, some of which are the same as yours. I believe in CF as cross-training but not so much as a sport unto itself. I think there is more to fitness than 20 minute workouts, that’s for sure. Of course that depends on your definition of fitness, being a cyclist I think longer rides are also important, I do question anything much beyond a few hours though. There’s no evidence that humans are designed, or ‘need’, to do that type of work. Of course longer rides are used in training for the pro tours etc, but TDF caliber cyclists have reduced life expectancy so I struggle with calling what they do fitness. I’m sure this topic could be debated more or less endlessly but that would necessitate a whole different thread lol…

 

[ryebread]

"Doing a month at 3 X 8 reps, a month at 4 X 6 reps and a month at 5 X 5 reps is a decent way to switch up sets and reps. Also, variety is grossly over rated. You would do better sticking with the same basic exercises and switching sets and reps than doing the same sets and reps and switching exercises."

I have a question about this and some other stuff.

I feel like Ive read where you've stated that there are no benefits to doing more than 5 reps per exercise (not calling you out on anything just want to clarify). So Right now Im doing 3x5s - if I can do 3x6 while maintaining good form I add weight. So I'll think about switching it up since its the beginning of the month. If bump up to 4x6 do you recommend dropping weight? Im doing what I feel like is a good mix of traditional weight training and a bunch of suggestions from your various posts and your website.

Other questions for anyone out there:
I work out with weights mon, wed, fri.. (like I said 3x5 with 1minute rest between sets and no rest between exercises to keep intensity up) I do the same exercises but start with a different one every day to mix it up. Is it better to do different body parts every time (for example, legs and back on mondays, etc.) or is this old bodybuilding thinking?

Tues and thursdays I do Chris Carmichael DVD intervals on an indoor trainer. I have a couple of different ones that I alternate to keep it fresh.

Think this is this too much? If Im feeling worn out or plan on a weekend ride or snowboarding, I may skip a day or go easy on friday. Been doing this for about 4 months and definitely seeing results but looking for suggestions or critique.

Thanks for ANY input.