Well, I can't jump with my float X2

Jm_ · Mar 24, 2018

Properly working suspension gives you more stability and traction due to more contact with the ground. The tune also allows you to land much bigger stuff without getting bucked.

marshalolson · Mar 24, 2018

Go faster?

Sandwich · Mar 24, 2018

i feel like this is a problem of having not enough spring. I started clearing jumps better when I went up in spring rate.

my suggestions are two-fold; increase air pressure. It's possible that even though you're measuring 25% sag, if you added 25psi, you'd still be at 25 or just a little more, depending on the ramp rate in your rear suspension. You're measuring a tiny amount of movement with a (usually) three fold effect at the shock vs. wheel, and depending on your measuring device, you may simply be wrong.

alternatively, play with air volume to increase/decrease progressivity. I could see a situation where increasing progression (via reduced air volume) could make the ride more lively and easier to boost off lips with the same air pressure. I could also see a situation where decreasing progression and increasing spring rate (air pressure) would give more of a platform and make the suspension less supple, which could be good for smooth lips.

djjohnr · Mar 24, 2018

What bike is it on? The spring curve for air and coil are different, specifically there is less mid-stroke support with air. It's possible you're sinking deeper into the travel on compressions.

Stuff to try-

- Increase spring rate/air pressure
- Increase compression damping, get HS right first then add low speed. You could get the shock revalved if you run out of adjustment.
- Go back to coil

Udi · Mar 24, 2018

Increasing compression damping will actually decrease pop and make it harder to clear jumps.

The reason is simply because damping dissipates energy while springs store energy, so the more you dissipate in the compression stroke, the less that can be stored in the spring to return to the rider on the rebound stroke. If you are already at the minimum sag limit with spring rate, then I'd try decreasing compression damping (particularly HS) first.

You can also decrease rebound damping, but in this case you need to speed up the fork rebound so that the front is always faster than the rear (to avoid pitching), which is why it's better to address it via compression if possible.

buckoW · Mar 25, 2018

Put the RC4 back on the bike.

WestCoastHucker · Mar 27, 2018

maybe actually try jumping. just riding off shit isn't gonna help you...

rockofullr · Mar 27, 2018

PJivan said:
That was on my old 2011 commy supreme and it's sold
I'm loving the new bike a part from the shock! I've "solved" it by running 15% of sag but it's a fucking joke of shock if you ask me, I can't get support and fast enough recovery without making the bike stiff as a rock

Doesn't sound like a good fix to me. And I know there are plenty of people out there sending it on that shock.

We're still waiting to hear what bike this is on so we can give some more useful information other than "moar air". It's also important to know how much you weigh. Larger riders in particular will benefit from some volume spacers to increase progresivity (I don't think that's a real word) so you don't need to run so much pressure that your bike feels like garbage. In general bigger guys will probably like coil better than air.

Udi · Mar 28, 2018

If you think there's something wrong with the shock on your brand new bike, you should send it back and get a replacement.

If you're still not happy (and want to give it a fair go) then you should post your weight and all settings, there are people here with enough experience to give you pointers. Probably not crazy to post your fork settings at the same time. However to me it sounds like you won't be happy unless you ditch that shock, so maybe just save yourself the trouble.

It's no secret that I'm probably the biggest advocate of the RC4 here, particularly the small-shaft version from 2015. But I've ridden plenty of DH bikes with the Float X2 now, as do many good riders (as @rockofullr points out) and I can say with honesty that:

It jumps absolutely fine
It's probably the best air shock I've ridden in a DH bike

If you do get an RC4, try to get the latest version, as they made some running updates on the LSC/HSC adjuster mechanism retention - 2013-2014 is good, 2015 is best. The 2015 version doesn't need any "aftermarket tuning" unless you want to waste money, but to each their own.

Best wishes!

Happymtb.fr · Mar 28, 2018

@Udi do you know if there is an upgrade for the RC4 adding a check valve to the low speed rebound path so that the LSR does not interfere with the LSC.

Sandwich · Mar 28, 2018

udi and his small shaft advocacy.....

Udi · Mar 28, 2018

Happymtb.fr said:
@Udi do you know if there is an upgrade for the RC4 adding a check valve to the low speed rebound path so that the LSR does not interfere with the LSC.

Yes - seen at least one recently from memory - but I don't think those valves are a good thing, as they add resistance during direction changes (which reduces sensitivity and traction).

It's far more important to have fluid transitions than to isolate adjustments completely, and that's exactly what a common-bleed port on the main piston of a shock achieves. It's the same reason good damper tuning involves less damping at very low shaft speeds and minor displacements (damping at very low shaft velocities affects small amplitude inputs in general as well, regardless of frequency), and then quickly building for "valid" velocities / events requiring support, rather than having a heap of damping from 0m/s - because the practical result of that is no appreciable increase in control or stability, but a decrease in sensitivity/traction and increase in bump force transfer to the rider.

These are the areas that separate good dampers from great dampers and not everyone gets it right.
There's also a lot of potential to make things worse with "tuning" and "improvements" if not careful.

Sandwich said:
udi and his small shaft advocacy.....

Always looking out for you

Happymtb.fr · Mar 28, 2018

I am with you @Udi , as I see it such upgrade would have a check valve for the rebound path and a parallel fixed orifice. The fixed orifice would help the low damping at low speed and the check valve on the rebound path would isolate the LSR from the LSC. Well that's how I would like it to be, I am just not sure if it is possible...
I know that 11-6 has a spring loaded ball on the rebound path from a picture found on the internet. Not sure if they have a parallel orifice.
Fast Suspensions say that they have independent LSC and LSR from a piston with a patent pending design on their Holly Grail. I haven't open mine and have not seen any picture of it...

Udi · Mar 28, 2018

@Happymtb.fr
I don't think it's neccessary and my point was I think there's potential to do more harm than good.
Most implementations of this I've seen have no parallel 2-way orifice, thus the "upgrade" ends up not only offering no significant improvement over the original design, but actually being worse for something that does matter. On the RC4 in particular, a larger percentage of the total compression damping comes not from the main piston, but from the neck assembly, so if you make a drastic change in rebound for some reason, you can easily compensate it at the DSC adjuster.

In reality though, there shouldn't be a need to change the rebound setting regularly - since it's mostly a function of spring rate. Just set rebound first, then compression, each time. The only actual problem is if you run out of range on some of the adjusters and can no longer compensate.

On a conventional (non-recirculatory) shock, compression damping from the main piston *should* be lower than compression damping from the neck assembly - because when you have a heavily valved main piston (on compression side) compared to the neck, you start to get cavitation problems. This was evident on the BOS Stoy. Rebound would very noticeably affect compression on this shock, but the reason for this was a bad design choice in the first place.

Finally, good check-valve design is tricky, and can cause knocking / hysteresis effects when the shock changes direction. So you're adding weight, complication, and the potential of doing harm, to solve a problem that doesn't really exist in my book. PS. the rebound curve on the RC4 is pretty linear, so if for some reason you have to run the R adjuster a long way in and are concerned about the 2-way bleed being too small, you can just valve the rebound firmer (eg. double the face shim) and back the adjuster off. There is a lot of flexibility in this shock, stock.

On all fronts I would imagine / believe you that the Holy Grail has good design, and likely a parallel orifice one-way valve. I just think these are negligible "improvements", and while I appreciate small details, believe there's no need to look for trouble where there is none.

Then there's weight, in 241x76, SS RC4 @ 445g v. Holy Grail @ 495g. A clean 10% weight jump is no huge deal in DH, but is in Enduro where a coil shock is already a big weight compromise. Chrome shafts and added complexity come at a price of not just money.

Ironically - one minor change I would make on the RC4 is to make the glidering slightly thicker and its seat depth slightly deeper on the main piston - since in rare cases it can partially slide off. I suspect most aftermarket pistons do this by default, but I've avoided trying one literally because I don't simultaneously want someone's check valve "upgrade" or "we improved the porting on an already-awesome piston". Sidenote: a big no-no in my book would be is if they enlarged the total flow area of 3x HSR holes as an "improvement". I'm open to trying an aftermarket piston if you find one with the parallel orifice design (or just no check valve, using stock piston bolt), purely for a more durable glidering setup.

Only if the piston can be purchased individually though, because the SS RC4 is definitely not a shock that needs a "$220 service with piston upgrade". I wouldn't recommend it otherwise. Also, mail me the stock pistons you don't want.

Kanye West · Mar 29, 2018

I think what this guy is observing has some legitimacy to it. The low speed circuits on the X2 damper (essentially what is found on the DHX2, Float X2, and the DPX2) are kind of fucked up. Meaning, there's a lot of crossover from C to R in the low speed bleeds. I've found that I've had to run BOTH LSC and LSR adjustments pretty far out to get any compliance out of the shock, but then it turns into a bobbing mess.

I've owned and quickly sold a few of those newer Fox shocks myself. I couldn't get them to be very responsive and I felt like they just locked up too easily and then randomly fell through the stroke at certain times too. I thought they were great for hammering through huge hits over and over but pretty useless for trail trash compliance. Same story with the CCDB's (same layout). Lots of hysteresis/lag in the response by trying to shove a massive column of oil through a tiny port and poppet valve.

Anyhow, I can empathize. Any damper that's a "twin tube" damper has historically been at best "different" to get a feel for and to tune for than a standard damper, and at worst, a complete pain in the ass that requires endless fiddling. Trying to make sense of what they're actually doing under you versus the Scooby Doo marketing bullshit that comes with them is tough.

I'm with Udi thinking the RC4's were about the best shocks around, although I preferred the earlier versions with the boost valve myself. If it weren't for newer frames phasing those out completely with these stupidass "metric" standards, I'd still use and run one.

Udi · Mar 29, 2018

Totally agree on all counts, as you said these problems all existed on the CCDB too - no surprise that the X2 followed suit (designed by same guy, sadly got hired by Fox). Just too much damping at super low shaft speeds and not enough support where it counts, especially once you back off the LS to get the compliance. Twin tubes have inherently inferior rebound curves for rear shocks too.

It's a real shame because Fox made one of the only reasonably priced, reliable/durable, and very well performing rear shocks that you could buy. The replacement looks prettier but is inferior in pretty much every way. RIP RC4.

With that said, I didn't find either X2 unrideable and I thought it (particularly Float) jumped fine in most average DH frames.
Maybe just me.

Happymtb.fr · Mar 29, 2018

Udi said:
On a conventional (non-recirculatory) shock, compression damping from the main piston *should* be lower than compression damping from the neck assembly - because when you have a heavily valved main piston (on compression side) compared to the neck, you start to get cavitation problems.

I had somehow forgotten that. Is there a simple way to know from the shims used at both places which once gives the most damping? or is cavitation easily noticeable?
I wonder since I have been playing with my Devinci Django (29er trail bike with 120mm rear travel) for which I had a RC4 made to fit, it was a bad decision! The progression of the leverage is only 11% for a 44mm shock stroke, it blew through its travel way to easily and became harsh when adding compression or increasing spring rate... But I find out that I could use the rocker from my Devinci Troy and swap the rear wheel for a 27.5. It gave 25% progression and 130mm of travel with an increased leverage which I have been compensating with moar shimz on the main piston after looking at the drawings from Fox. I went step by step from CM to CF and it seems that I still might need some more compression. On the bridge I have something stiffer than what is on the Fox drawing (http://www.ridefox.com/fox17/img/help/page58-loFGb9/Damping-Adj-Assy-2011-DHX-RC4.jpg) the shock came with triple face shims (16,6x0,1), no second shims, one third (12,5x0,1) and then the clamp shims (9,6x0,1)

Lelandjt · Apr 1, 2018

Udi said:
Totally agree on all counts, as you said these problems all existed on the CCDB too - no surprise that the X2 followed suit (designed by same guy, sadly got hired by Fox). Just too much damping at super low shaft speeds and not enough support where it counts, especially once you back off the LS to get the compliance. Twin tubes have inherently inferior rebound curves for rear shocks too.

It's a real shame because Fox made one of the only reasonably priced, reliable/durable, and very well performing rear shocks that you could buy. The replacement looks prettier but is inferior in pretty much every way. RIP RC4.

With that said, I didn't find either X2 unrideable and I thought it (particularly Float) jumped fine in most average DH frames.
Maybe just me.

I was under the impression that the X2 is the "greatest air shock ever". My new Capra comes with a DPX2 that I was gonna replace with a Float X2. Should I not? I might consider coil but if I wanna stick with air should I go DPX2 or Float X2?

Udi · Apr 1, 2018

Lelandjt said:
I was under the impression that the X2 is the "greatest air shock ever". My new Capra comes with a DPX2 that I was gonna replace with a Float X2. Should I not? I might consider coil but if I wanna stick with air should I go DPX2 or Float X2?

There's mixed opinions on that one, but personally I think you've got the right idea.
I've ridden both in a few frames and I feel the Float X2 is the better shock of those two, particularly for aggressive use. Of the air shocks I've ridden (most), the Float X2 is the only one I felt I could live with. No harm in trying the DPX2 first so you can see what it's lacking, to then decide if the other shock will improve things.

It can be a little hard to get enough progression out of the Float X2 for very flat-curved frames, but the Capra isn't one.

If you do get one, I have some pointers on "getting the most out of the imperfect damper":

Start the rebound off with the HSR fully closed (clockwise), LSR fully open (counterclockwise), then only use the LSR to set the overall rebound speed, slightly slower than however you run your fork rebound. Always keep HSR fully closed.
Start the compression off with the LSC fully open (counterclockwise), HSC fully open (counterclockwise), then only use the HSC to set the overall level of compression support. You can add LSC to correct large oscillations if you feel the need, but ideally, keep the LSC fairly close to open.

Sounds aggressive but this minimises some of the damper shortcomings.

PJivan said:
My friend's Propain Spindrift with RS super delux feels way better than my Sender with X2....this I know for certain.

Those frames have completely different leverage curves so it's not going to tell you a lot about the shocks. Sounds to me like there's something wrong with your X2 or you've set it up really badly if it actually "feels bad" though. I like the super deluxe too, but there shouldn't be that much difference.

You still haven't posted your shock settings (at all) so no one knows if you're just having a blind rant or have a legitimate problem. I have no affiliation with Fox and own zero X2 products, but if you don't actually want a solution - move on.
We get it, you hate your shock - you're not helping yourself or anyone else by repeating that mindlessly.

William42 · Apr 2, 2018

But Oodee, my shock is the worst!

jackalope · Apr 2, 2018

Udi said:
If you do get one, I have some pointers on "getting the most out of the imperfect damper":

Start the rebound off with the HSR fully closed (clockwise), LSR fully open (counterclockwise), then only use the LSR to set the overall rebound speed, slightly slower than however you run your fork rebound. Always keep HSR fully closed.

Start the compression off with the LSC fully open (counterclockwise), HSC fully open (counterclockwise), then only use the HSC to set the overall level of compression support. You can add LSC to correct large oscillations if you feel the need, but ideally, keep the LSC fairly close to open.

Sounds aggressive but this minimises some of the damper shortcomings.

Le reals? So you'd keep HSR fully closed and most likely the LSC as well? If that's the case, is that also your suggestion for other twin tubers like the CCDB models? Or are those settings based on the Capra and bikes with similar kinematics?

Btw, I think you should start a new shock/fork company called "Hysteresis Suspension" and sell the hydraulic lag as a feature and superior to products without outrageous amounts of hysteresis. You can fly me up to Whistler for a vacation once you become a wealthy reptilian.

Happymtb.fr · Apr 2, 2018

@jackalope
Udi's recommendations for rebound are inline with what Steve says in this video

and he back that up with some dyno curves

Then I don't know where you saw that the Lsc should be closed...

jackalope · Apr 2, 2018

Happymtb.fr said:
@jackalope
Udi's recommendations for rebound are inline with what Steve says in this video

and he back that up with some dyno curves

Then I don't know where you saw that the Lsc should be closed...

Sorry, meant lsc is fully open. Getting ready to try it out nao

Lelandjt · Apr 2, 2018

Udi said:
There's mixed opinions on that one, but personally I think you've got the right idea.
I've ridden both in a few frames and I feel the Float X2 is the better shock of those two, particularly for aggressive use. Of the air shocks I've ridden (most), the Float X2 is the only one I felt I could live with. No harm in trying the DPX2 first so you can see what it's lacking, to then decide if the other shock will improve things.

It can be a little hard to get enough progression out of the Float X2 for very flat-curved frames, but the Capra isn't one.

If you do get one, I have some pointers on "getting the most out of the imperfect damper":

Start the rebound off with the HSR fully closed (clockwise), LSR fully open (counterclockwise), then only use the LSR to set the overall rebound speed, slightly slower than however you run your fork rebound. Always keep HSR fully closed.

Start the compression off with the LSC fully open (counterclockwise), HSC fully open (counterclockwise), then only use the HSC to set the overall level of compression support. You can add LSC to correct large oscillations if you feel the need, but ideally, keep the LSC fairly open.

Thanks for the advice. The only shock I've ever had with LSR & HSR is the Vivid Air on my V10.5. I researched which part of the stroke each adjuster covered and used that as a tuning guide. It worked pretty well to get the rebound feel I wanted in different situations. With the X2 is it less clear that one adjuster covers something like 0-70% travel and the other 70-100%?
Are your odd LSR/HSR and LSC/HSC settings because there's much more crossover than the names of the adjusters would imply?
My reasons for replacing the DPX2 with X2 are more oil & air volume and greater control over damping.
My concern with the X2 is too many adjustments with overlapping effects. I can usually handle this but if it's not intuitive which adjuster affects which part and speed of the shaft travel it could be hard to get it dialed in. I'm tempted to get it and try your advice but this thread has me nervous

Udi · Apr 2, 2018

@jackalope
Yeah exact same story for the CCDB too.
In really simple terms, some of the adjusters don't go far enough in and some don't go far enough out, for what would be considered a perfect tune in most bikes - so by setting some things to their endstops, those things become permanently "as good as they can be", and as a bonus you simplify your tuning down to 2 adjusters instead of 4. If you like it you can fly me to whistler, and if you hate it, it's just because you haven't bought my hysteresis valve upgrade yet (you can't install it yourself, I will fit it for you at roughly whistler-plane-ticket pricing).

@Lelandjt
Not because of overlapping effects - yes that's a thing, but it's not a huge problem and all shocks have some adjuster overlap which you can usually compensate for by changing the other settings anyway. The simple reason is what I wrote above to jackalope, and it's been explained in detail via the links in posts #108 and #109 of this thread.

Not telling you what to buy - most currently available shocks have some kind of compromise, but since most people have to pick from those - I figure all we can do is try and minimise the problems. If you buy the shock, try my suggestions. It may sound "aggressive", but as Hacktastic points out (and Steve in his dyno video, though you have to read between the lines a little there), the default adjustment ranges on these shocks aren't really correct for the application - so what is actually "aggressive" is if you set all adjusters to their middle position on an MTB. My suggestions should hopefully move things closer to what the midpoints actually should have been.

mykel · Apr 2, 2018

@Udi

Any experience or friend of a friend know anything about the Ext Arma? (or Storia)

Expensive, but then again, so is a new shock then custom tune / upgrade / change shock to try to find something that works for you...

...or spend the money on an 11-6 and go on an Ex-lax diet to compensate for teh weightz. :think:

It's all just a mater of the correct compromise :twitch:

.

Udi · Apr 2, 2018

@mykel
Not a huge fan of 14-15mm shafts, ~12mm is norm for a modern non-TT shock, ~10mm for a TT.
They just end up feeling a bit sticky in my experience (ridden the EXT Arma), and I had the same experience with the DVO Jade (although this is much more reasonably priced). They should still be noticeably better than any air shock, and if you have reasonable frame progression / reasonably high leverage at the start of travel then it shouldn't be much concern. I know owners of both those shocks who are happy with them. You could also look into the Holy Grail from Fast, which I think will be a better performer, although not sure if you need a lockout, there was a proto in the works but maybe not production yet. @Happymtb.fr here uses one so you could ask him for details.

I would be careful and conscious of the fact that if you have a problem with any of these smaller brands, you'll have to lean on the company's support - and in my experience small European brands are notorious for being rude and not wanting to hear from you after taking your money (particularly if you are not a local / native speaker). France takes #1, Germany #2, Italians are harder to hate because they usually just won't reply. Do your homework and make sure the product is perfect, or that you have a good distributor / contact.

Lelandjt · Apr 2, 2018

@Udi: Damn, I'd hoped that since the X2 comes on the next model up Capra they'd have specced a decent tune so if I buy one aftermarket using the id code I could start with the adjusters in the middle.

FarkinRyan · Apr 2, 2018

The difference between the stock tunes on the X2 variants is not huge;

Firm; http://www.ridefox.com/fox17/help.php?m=bike&id=864#part10616
Medium; http://www.ridefox.com/fox17/help.php?m=bike&id=864#part10617

As long as they've specced something vaguely appropriate you will be able to set it up fine.

StiHacka · Apr 2, 2018

Any idea if Avalanche mods them to moar useful gadgets?

Udi · Apr 2, 2018

@Lelandjt It's nothing to do with the tune they chose, it's just the design of the shock itself.
But Ryan is right, you'll get it set up just fine.

If you want "adjusters in the middle" you'll have a pretty average performer. Does it really matter where the adjusters are though, as long as it works the best it can? If anything what I said should make it way easier to get the shock setup well, and eliminate a lot of the concerns over overlap (and the complication of having 4 adjusters - guess how many people actually get those things right?). You'll be happy with the shock if you keep an open mind on how to set it up.

@StiHacka Not sure about the idea of taking a twin tube shock and then turning it into "kinda not a twin-tube". Would mega complicate the setup and tune. I think the hatred is a bit excessive / misleading here (guilty), Fox actually updated the 2018 X2 (Coil, and I think Float too) to have a smaller internal tube and piston so that it displaces less oil through the adjusters and thus isn't as harsh at low shaft speeds. If you have an older version, just updating the piston and internal tube is probably a good upgrade, coupled with some of my "seemingly out there, but not really" setup pointers.

Jm_ · Apr 2, 2018

Udi said:
@StiHacka Not sure about the idea of taking a twin tube shock and then turning it into "kinda not a twin-tube". Would mega complicate the setup and tune. I think the hatred is a bit excessive / misleading here (guilty), Fox actually updated the 2018 X2 (Coil, and I think Float too) to have a smaller internal tube and piston so that it displaces less oil through the adjusters and thus isn't as harsh at low shaft speeds. If you have an older version, just updating the piston and internal tube is probably a good upgrade, coupled with some of my "seemingly out there, but not really" setup pointers.

There seems to be a thread on Empty Bear about the shaft seal for 2018 going to a much simpler design and possibly causing them to suck in air.

Well, I can't jump with my float X2

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