[DRB]

Call it N8 rhertoric if you like, but I think I generally support what I say with facts, and this argument is no different. I really dont have a problem with what Michael Moore is about or what he believes, what I have a problem with is that people actually take the exaggerations (sp) he makes as pure fact, because he presents them that way. We know he does alot of twisting of stuff to make certain points, which can indeed be funny and insightful, but people tend to take them as actual representations of what happened. He titles things as "documentaries" when they're really just "political commentaries" He also DOES profit from disasters to hit the US, and you say "so what? he used to stick up for other stuff" Well, now he has become the film directors version of an ambulance chaser. If you think that's right, fine. I dont.
Alot of his arguments also hold no water, or are left unfinished, yet people cant see beyond the rhetoric...why?

PS: he's fat.

Not often but I agree with BS here.

 

[BurlyShirley]

You say elsewhere that you back your argument up with fact, yet I see no facts here. You do not prove these points about Moore to be wrong. You have not proven that the megalomart in question has never sold this ammo. You've merely stated it the same way I stated they had it available to pull from the shelves. It is not worth my time to research these facts for you. I believed the several news reports that had been delivered back when Kmart pulled the bullets from the shelves. I did not see them get pulled, nor did I review any Kmart documentation on the matter other than their statement reprinted in the varying news sources.

BS, I find your intellectual posturing squashes my desire to share and exchange thus stifling any possible growth and understanding that could transpire from an exchange with someone with such an opposing view as my own.

It is a FACT that niether K-Mart, nor Wal-Mart have ever sold bullets that explode after impact inside a person. It is also a FACT that those types of bullets were not used in the columbine tragedy. If you do not care to research something, please feel free to live in ignorance, but dont get mad when people like myself call your BS card and make you look silly. My intellectual posturing has surely squashed your ABILITY in this case to spread incorrect information, and Im glad of that.
Also, the beginning of your last post made no sense. Work on that.

 

[JRB]

It is a FACT that niether K-Mart, nor Wal-Mart have ever sold bullets that explode after impact inside a person. It is also a FACT that those types of bullets were not used in the columbine tragedy. If you do not care to research something, please feel free to live in ignorance, but dont get mad when people like myself call your BS card and make you look silly. My intellectual posturing has surely squashed your ABILITY in this case to spread incorrect information, and Im glad of that.
Also, the beginning of your last post made no sense. Work on that.

I'm sure TMX will agree with me when I say, just because you typed FACT in bold letters doesn't make it any more factual. I think the point was for you to present the facts and then it would be considered in thought. Good job on angry arguing that really helps you look like an ass. I have learned a little about thought processes from this thread, if nothing else. You should try to take that away from this too.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I'm sure TMX will agree with me when I say, just because you typed FACT in bold letters doesn't make it any more factual. I think the point was for you to present the facts and then it would be considered in thought. Good job on angry arguing that really helps you look like an ass. I have learned a little about thought processes from this thread, if nothing else. You should try to take that away from this too.

What I typed is common knowledge to anyone who pays attention. Which, of course, is why it doesnt make any sense to you.

 

[JRB]

What I typed is common knowledge to anyone who pays attention. Which, of course, is why it doesnt make any sense to you.

It's better to support your common knowledge in debate, if you didn't know that.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It's better to support your common knowledge in debate, if you didn't know that.

Thanks for the tip...I'll PM you from now on, every time I need debate advice. I'll also PM you for music advice, since your Jimmy Eat World discovery left me in awe.

 

[syadasti]

I find it pretty funny everyone is arguing about a point that has nothing to do with the goal in the movie. The goal was to stop the sale of handgun ammo, not exploding bullets. It was Kmart and not Walmart. They wanted to limit cheap easy access (AKA the local Kmart) to bullets that could be used in concealed weapons(handguns):

Kmart ends standoff, drops handgun ammo

June 29, 2001

BY AMY KLEIN
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Kmart Corp. unexpectedly agreed to stop selling handgun ammunition in its 2,100 stores nationwide Thursday, swiftly ending a standoff between the retail giant and corporate guerrilla filmmaker Michael Moore
....
Flanked by three Columbine High School students and carrying Kmart bags stuffed with bullets, Moore waited in the Troy headquarters lobby under banners announcing the latest Blue Light special and Martha Stewart promotion.

"Come on Mr. Conaway, be a man," Moore called out Thursday. "Please have the decency to come down and talk to these children who were crippled by bullets bought at your store."

Moore came to Kmart while filming a documentary that examines school shootings and the nation's fear of guns. He walked away with more than he bargained for -- a victory.

Although Conaway never appeared, Kmart spokeswoman Lori McTavish said the retailer understood the concerns voiced by Moore and the Columbine students and already had reconsidered its sale of handgun ammunition. Kmart plans to remove the bullets from stores in the next 90 days.

Kmart will continue to sell sporting firearms, like hunting rifles, and the ammunition for those products, McTavish said.
...
To prove how easy it is to get ammunition, Moore and Taylor went to a nearby Kmart on Wednesday night. Taylor said he walked to the counter, asked for "all the ammunition you have" and walked away with 1,000 rounds of 9mm and .38 special ammunition -- bullets that will no longer be sold at Kmart.
...
Wal-Mart Stores Inc. of Bentonville, Ark., Kmart's fiercest competitor, sells hunting guns and ammunition at a majority of its 2,600 stores. In Alaska, the discount retailer also sells handguns.

"It comes down to one thing -- if the customer wants it," said Jessica Moser, spokeswoman for Wal-Mart. "We are a very responsible retailer of this product and we have many steps in place to make sure we sell it responsibly."

Grand Rapids-based Meijer Inc. doesn't sell guns at any of its 150 stores, but carries ammunition. Minneapolis-based Target Corp. does not sell guns or ammunition at its stores.

Moore insisted that his drive to remove ammunition from Kmart's shelves had nothing to do with the sport of hunting. After all, Moore pointed out, he was raised in rural Lapeer and is a card-carrying member of the National Rifle Association.

Instead, Moore said, he is disgusted by how easily teenagers can buy thousands of rounds of handgun ammunition
...

 

[JRB]

Thanks for the tip...I'll PM you from now on, every time I need debate advice. I'll also PM you for music advice, since your Jimmy Eat World discovery left me in awe.

I don't like you enough to be your consultant. I do realize more and more that Jimmy Eat World can't suck too much since you don't like it. When you posted your country thread you didn't specify. Do you mean like Toby Keith and John Michael Montgomery and losers like that or do you actually like the good stuff. Still forming my opinion on you so I know how to regard your advice. Not looking real good now though.

 

[JRB]

I find it pretty funny everyone is arguing about a point that has nothing to do with the goal in the movie. The goal was to stop the sale of handgun ammo, not exploding bullets. It was Kmart and not Walmart. They wanted to limit cheap easy access (AKA the local Kmart) to bullets that could be used in concealed weapons(handguns):

Yeah - I was at Wal-mart one night and watched 3 thug looking kids buy several boxes of buckshot and slugs. Deer season was not open and I viewed this as them getting ready for mayhem. I won't get into what I think about it, but selling high power ammo to a kid on Friday night seems like a bad idea to me.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I find it pretty funny everyone is arguing about a point that has nothing to do with the goal in the movie. The goal was to stop the sale of handgun ammo, not exploding bullets. It was Kmart and not Walmart. They wanted to limit cheap easy access (AKA the local Kmart) to bullets that could be used in concealed weapons(handguns):

Holy crap! Syadisti agreed with me. Get ready for famine and pestolence.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Still forming my opinion on you so I know how to regard your advice. Not looking real good now though.

I dont care.

 

[syadasti]

Holy crap! Syadisti agreed with me. Get ready for famine and pestolence.

Yeah but there was no need to come down hard on tmx for having a bad memory on what was done. Plus you got the store name wrong yourself

 

[BurlyShirley]

Yeah but there was no need to come down hard on tmx for having a bad memory on what was done. Plus you got the store name wrong yourself

Well, it was a typo actually, but yeah, i think the issue of EXPLODING bullets is the kind of exaggeration that MM himself would make, so I focused on it as it was horribly incorrect, not just an "I forgot". The idea of exploding bullets, if memory serves, have even been outlawed by the geneva convention, so not even the US military use them on personnel, only in big anti-tank guns. Its certainly nothing you or anyone could get ahold of.

 

[tmx]

BS, have you actually concluded I live in ignorance simply because I do not wish to waste the time to research the facts for you? You know nothing of me or my resources. How about some first hand knowledge of the magnanimous time, money and effort he puts in to express what he believes in? Have you ever worked with him? Do you have colleagues who work with him? He doesn't boast about the "charitable" work/donations because it's not a part of who he is. In my opinion, it's remarkably commendable he doesn't feel a need to prove his philanthropic worth to the likes of you.

Where exactly did I state that the type of bullets pulled from the shelf were one's used in the Colorado tragedy??

You still haven't proven your statements to be fact. Bolding the letters does not count. I'm not asking you to prove them, but if you're going to accuse me of trying to spread falsehoods, it'd be tops if you could do more to back your theory than formatting your font.

 

[BurlyShirley]

BS, have you actually concluded I live in ignorance simply because I do not wish to waste the time to research the facts for you? You know nothing of me or my resources. How about some first hand knowledge of the magnanimous time, money and effort he puts in to express what he believes in? Have you ever worked with him? Do you have colleagues who work with him? He doesn't boast about the "charitable" work/donations because it's not a part of who he is. In my opinion, it's remarkably commendable he doesn't feel a need to prove his philanthropic worth to the likes of you.

Well Im not the only one who has disagreed (see Syadistis post) and there has been an article posted, so feel free to be unsatisfied if you like. Also, I never said he should give to charity, I was resonding to your assertion that he does not profit from tragedy which is false. Learn to comprehend before you argue.
My firsthand knowledge happens so come from the fact that I worked for 4 years in military public affairs and have a good idea about the inconsistencies with policy, weapons, and command decision assertions made by MM in F911. It is misleading. I am no longer with the military, so I can be objective, which I try to be. You dont need to research for me, because I already know. Thanks.

 

[MikeD]

Moore sucks not because he's fat and liberal, but because he's got the credibility of a Nazi propogandist. His movies are indeed masterfully made, but they're made to effectively use the emotion from events like Columbine and 9/11 to cloud his subtle and effective manipulation of the audience. He really could have been a student at the Leni Riefenschtal school of film. He uses humor (making fun of Bush and Heston), emotion (dead students and soldiers) and maudlin antics (opening strangers' doors in Canada, chasing Senators and harrassing them about military service for their children) to mask the fact that his movies are often self-contradictory and aren't really about what they say they are about...

(guns don't kill people, people kill people...yet I'll cry at a WalMart which sells ammo nonetheless; the 'culture of fear' emphasises unrealistic threats towards political control and the benefit of big business, yet I'll use the rarest of threats-a school shooting-to call attention to my movie that's more a rant against American foriegn policy than an analysis of America's gun culture; I'll call Bin Laden 'innocent until proven guilty', then rail at the administration for not killing him, etc etc.; the list could go on for pages.)...

This is coming from a guy whose politics are open-minded and very very critical. I went and saw 'Bowling for Columbine' expecting a thorough and thoughtful analysis of just what problems America has with guns-I do think we have some-and halfway through, was livid that I'd given this guy $8 to see his propoganda. The movie was not about American culture (except for his vauge assertions that it's reflective of American foriegn policy), didn't address AT ALL the 11,000 dead Americans a year from gun violence (who die from some reason other than school shootings or snipers or other freak events that make up the media-based "culture of fear" that he so rails against, yet focuses exclusively on events within it), or even about Columbine (I wanted to see ideas on what in our culture made Columbine happen). Since then, I've been avidly anti-Moore. He is the worst kind of human being...like someone else said, the Bill O'Reilly of the Left.

Recent controversey with him in San Diego underscores it all. A University of California school had students who wanted the school to pay for Moore to speak. They said, "Sure, if you can get an opposing speaker, we can make it a debate instead of a partisan political event, and we'll pay for the whole thing.' Students couldn't find anyone (tried to get Arnie), and the school said "sorry, can't spend taxpayer dollars on what will be a partisan speech." Moore was never prohibited from speaking on campus...they just wouldn't fund his speaking fee (although the students could have paid the $50k if they'd wanted to). Yet, he ends up showing up off-campus (after miraculously waiving his fee), and tearfully decrying the 'republican influence' who wanted to 'clamp down on his right to free speech.' Screw him. No one said he couldn't talk; they just weren't going to use public money to fund it!

MD

PS Move-on.org's "Uncovered" was a pretty good film, although not as slick or glitzy or easily watched by the average American...lots of good, supported expert opinion, clearly presented, to form a coherent opinion.

PPS. Michael Moore is a terrible person.

Edit: This is to say nothing of the immense deception he's apparently practiced with documentation and editing. Though most of it comes from decidedly right-wing sources, it's obvious when you watch "Bowling" that he's spliced together various Heston speeches and presented them as a single speech...you can see his clothes change between the edits. I direct you to http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html as one well-supported analysis (which in itself bears checking). My objections to Moore on these grounds are secondary to and only came after my initial objections to his lack of coherence.

 

[Knuckleslammer]

A bit off topic here, but I'd just like to say one thing. And if I could say it up on a podium in front of the world, I would. Our brains shape our own destiny and our perception of the world. If the brain is constantly bombarded with negativity, what do you think is going to happen? The media, television and the news have nothing good to say, EVER. Turn on the news. Death, violence, mayhem, destruction, rape, theivery. What happens when you hear this over and over and over. People need to open their eyes here. The youth of this country today has no respect for elders, no respect for authority, no fear of any action, and it's becaus of the television. THROW THE F****G THING OUT. It's killing us, seriously. Think about this and tell me if I'm wrong. The world has always been teetering on the brink of extinction. Tell me things now, as far as peace and human kind are worse now than in the days of the Roman Empire. You can't, can you? It's the media that is portraying it to be, and your brain is being raped, yes RAPED by television, media, news and propaganda. Tune into yourself. Realize that you shape your own destiny and your thoughts shape your perception of the world, and your thoughts are shaped by the environment in which you live and the things that you are exposed to.

DON'T ANYONE DARE TELL ME I'M WRONG.

Knuckle

 

[JRB]

Well said knuckle.

 

[SkaredShtles]

A bit off topic here,<snip rant>DON'T ANYONE DARE TELL ME I'M WRONG.

Amen, mah bruthah! I think tuning out the TV is an *excellent* idea. Everybody should try it. Just stop turning it on. Turn on the radio.

Don't watch the news, don't watch reality TV, don't watch sitcoms. Don't watch advertisements. Try it for about 6 months. You'll realize that you're not missing anything of any substantial value.

Tune out!

-S.S.-

 

[Ridemonkey]

There's only one channel on TV worth a crap. History Channel.

 

[ncrider]

Holy crap, MikeD and Knuckle just slammed dunked this thread. Put a fork in it cause it's done.

But for those who like their meat well done, I'll just say that unforunatly the vast public act like sheep. They belive the media and if it sounds good they won't even question it. Thats why MM is sooo dangerous. His anti-american propogandist tour is frightening, but not nearly as frightening as the people that think his word is gosspil. I haven't seen it yet, but there is a new movie called Celcius 41.1 (thats the temp. at which you're brain stops functioning) and the movie is attempting a bring light to the lies spilled by MM. Anyone have info on that mopvie?

 

[Cooter Brown]

Amen, mah bruthah! I think tuning out the TV is an *excellent* idea. Everybody should try it. Just stop turning it on. Turn on the radio.

Don't watch the news, don't watch reality TV, don't watch sitcoms. Don't watch advertisements. Try it for about 6 months. You'll realize that you're not missing anything of any substantial value.

Tune out!

-S.S.-

Werd S.S., I don't watch TV anymore and have found that I'm a happier person. The amount of time freed up from sitting in front of that box lets you enjoy other way more worthwhile ventures and activities than sitting on your ass growing wider and more angry and depressed with the world

 

[Knuckleslammer]

There's only one channel on TV worth a crap. History Channel.

Yes, the shows I use to hate that my father watched, NOVA and all that stuff (Pre cable) are the only shows I like watching now.
F- reality TV. It's the same sh*t over and over. I do want to see some of that new one though that people have to lose weight and win money. I'll endure some of that, to make the wife happy.

But the TV in general is crap. Discovery, History, and Learning Channel (Pre all those stupid house shows) are the only thing worth watching IMO. People don't realize that in order to progress in life and stay interested, happy and full of life is that you have to stimulate your brain. We're all zombies for the most part. You get out what you put in. Just like code. You put in crap, you get out crap. Stimulate your mind. Turn off the TV. I actaully hate it sometimes. When I hear that nightly news jingle when my wife watches it, it's now like fingernails on the chalkboard. Caus I know what's coming. BAD THIS, MAYHEM THAT, DEATH.

knuck

 

[Lexx D]

Did you guys make your own tin foil hats or did you buy them? You don't have to agree with MM, that is your choice(I don'y agree with everything he says either). I'm sick of people making him out to be some evil anti-american nazi. It sounds like conspiracy theory paranoia to me.
A movie that asks "why" is not anti-american.
Why do we have more murders with guns than any other country? Why are our kids shooting each other in school? Why did Ford close factories and give executives raises? Why is Charlton heston such a nut job? Why are there so many ties between Bush and saudi oil money? It's not anti-american to ask why, infact I think we should ask why more often.

 

[SkaredShtles]

There's only one channel on TV worth a crap. History Channel.

Yeah. But is that channel worth the price of cable when you could go to the library and probably check out the books about history? Go the book route!

Does the History channel have commercials?

-S.S.-

 

[MikeD]

Did you guys make your own tin foil hats or did you buy them? You don't have to agree with MM, that is your choice(I don'y agree with everything he says either). I'm sick of people making him out to be some evil anti-american nazi. It sounds like conspiracy theory paranoia to me.
A movie that asks "why" is not anti-american.
Why do we have more murders with guns than any other country? Why are our kids shooting each other in school? Why did Ford close factories and give executives raises? Why is Charlton heston such a nut job? Why are there so many ties between Bush and saudi oil money? It's not anti-american to ask why, infact I think we should ask why more often.

Hey, if that was directed to me, my Nazi comparison was purely (and legitimately-go watch "triumph of the will") directed to his filmmaking techniques. I don't dispute Moore's right to say what he wants, but I do dispute the methods he uses, conclusions he makes, and sometimes the very facts he cites. That's my right. Anti-american? Not really. He's part of the American landscape like any other opinionated person.

That doesn't mean he's not a decietful bastard.

As to why our kids are shooting one another in school, I wish he'd even addressed that question in Bowling for Columbine. He didn't. People apologize for Moore by saying "He raises questions!" Whoop-de-doo. After he raises questions, he uses them as grist for his disingenuous mill of an agenda.

Why is Heston such a nutjob? He's pretty much senile, that's why. He does for gun owners what Queer Nation does for gays.

You're certainly right that we should ask "why?" more often. We should also seek and in fact demand real, cogent answers to those questions.

MD

 

[ncrider]

You're certainly right that we should ask "why?" more often. We should also seek and in fact demand real, cogent answers to those questions.

MD

Exactly, I think what is been stressed here is that MM is asking these question (some of the time anyway) but his answers are NEITHER real or cogent for that mater.

 

[Lexx D]

Thats why MM is sooo dangerous. His anti-american propogandist tour is frightening

You did say this correct? Read your own statement a couple times and tell me that it doesn't come with a tinfoil hat.

 

[ncrider]

You did say this correct? Read your own statement a couple times and tell me that it doesn't come with a tinfoil hat.

When I said MM is ant-american this is how I justified it. If we can view America as a product for a moment, and we have MM asking questions about said product, and then MM answers his question with outright exagerations, quotes out of context, or bent truth, all answers by the way point to the product being shotty. Isn't that akine to somebody bashing on lets say a fork (which happens all to often here) and if they don't like the fork I'd say they are anti that product. Which is why I stand firm on my reasonning to say MM is ant-america.

Maybe I don't understand your refrence to a tinfoil hat.

 

[tmx]

Maybe I misunderstood the post, but I thought syadasti helped prove my point that BFC made a difference by finding and posting one of the press releases regarding the removal of the bullets from Kmart shelves. Didn't realize he was "disagreeing" with me, as BS said. It's okay if he was, he didn't make me feel he was trying to rip me a new asshole in the process.





Without a TV for over a year and loving it!

 

[OGRipper]

Rockin' thread you crazy monkies. IMO Michael Moore does the country a service by raising questions and going beyond scripted network coverage of elected officials. But as someone already said he does a huge disservice by presenting his views as documentaries when (by his own admission) he is actually putting forth a partisan, highly opinionated and cynical view, particularly with respect to Bush. He is unapologetic about that in interviews but I don't recall seeing any disclaimers or other statements at the beginning of his movies. Fortuneately many of us are intelligent enough to know the difference between fact and opinion, but there's something smelly about his approach. It's not quite hypocrisy but pretty close when you attack someone for misleading the public in a movie that is, well, somewhat misleading. Still, you gotta admit that this kind of discussion is exactly what this country needs, and we wouldn't be having it without MM and his movies.

PS, TV sucks, and it's sad that the biggest phenomenon is "reality" tv. Apparently the real world is so hard for us to deal with that we need fake reality. Our citizenry is turning into a bunch of fat numbskulls and I blame a lot of it on the tube.

 

[MikeD]

I've still to meet one person who can defend, or even find, Moore's thesis in Bowling for Columbine.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip> the product being shotty. Isn't that akine

Arghghghghghghgh! :mumble:

-S.S.-

 

[JRB]

I'm almost done watching BFC, and while I always hated MM when I saw him speak on shows, I am liking this film. I have quite a different perspective after just over half of the film. I will finish it at lunch. Wow. I even kind of like the guys whitty humor and definitely like anything that includes Camper Van Beethoven on the soundtrack. A gun at the phucking bank???

 

[MikeD]

When you're done watching it, please tell me what the point of the movie was.

 

[JRB]

When you're done watching it, please tell me what the point of the movie was.

I think I can already say that I formed the opinion that there are too few restrictions in place. If nothing else, I am appauled that the Nichols cat is not in prison somewhere. If for nothing else, just plain craziness. I think he is just creating awareness. It has me thinking and I am far from an extremist.

 

[MikeD]

I think I can already say that I formed the opinion that there are too few restrictions in place. If nothing else, I am appauled that the Nichols cat is not in prison somewhere. If for nothing else, just plain craziness. I think he is just creating awareness. It has me thinking and I am far from an extremist.

This is the same thing I hear every time I ask the question... "He makes me think." That's great. I'm happy for you, especially if you couldn't think before seeing the movie.

However, what he does do is raise a question..."Why are 11,000 people a year dead from guns in the US?" and then utterly fail to answer it. He appropriates the thesis of a 'culture of fear' in the US, which keeps us under control through fear of statistically insignificant, but emotionally powerful, events. Things like, say, school shootings.

Very much like the things he cries about in the movie...Columbine, the child murder in Flint, Michigan. Things that in no way account for the massive amount of corpses...his weepy 11,000 people.

HE IS PERPETUATING HIS OWN CULTURE OF FEAR TO MAKE A POLITICAL POINT ABOUT US FORIEGN POLICY.

This is an ubelievable irony, but he masks it with effective and manipulative moviemaking. He shields himself from criticism by invoking Columbine and violence against children, and disarms the unwary viewer's critical facaulties by using the humor of the bizarro gun-nutjobs he interviews. I don't think many of the militiamen he depicts are your 'average US gun owner.' Hell, he even manages to start the film off with a "Guns don't kill people, people kill people...at least in Canada," yet ends up not trying to decode what's wrong with American society, but just crying for Wal-Mart to take ammo off its shelves. A dramatic activist moment, for sure, but completely incongrous with the evidence he presents.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>I am appauled <snip>

I, personally, am appalled by your spelling.

-S.S.-

 

[JRB]

Well - if just a few of the people such as myself begin to raise concerns about who has guns and what they are used for, maybe the country will become a better place. I own a gun, I don't think I could use it on someone though. You say the militia guys are not average. Neither are the "I have a right, and phuck you if you say I don't, Charlton Heston followers". The NRA guys are just as unhealthy as gun nuts as anyone else. He brings a good point about the right to bear arms. Does an arm need to be able to kill you from 500 yards??? There are many weapons made and sold that are not needed. I have always thought this. In high school, we were at a party with a kid shooting at a rabbit one Friday night. The sheriff showed up and wanted to chat. Turns out that he was shooting through a bedroom window up the road. Bear in mind, that when they gave us the right to bear arms, there were no 500 rounds per minute weapons made. I am ok with going back to muzzle loaders. I have to think some things are out of control in out country. Can I fix them??? Not right now, but with enough folks trying, I am sure we can. What seperates us from Australia??? You tell me since you seem to criticize Moore for not knowing.

 

[JRB]

I, personally, am appalled by your spelling.

-S.S.-

So - I guess I won't ever have BV as a fan either. :eviltongu