[LordOpie]

What about unions opie? No doubt they get more from the companies than the companies want to give, but it's not like the US middle class has it so much better than anyone else due to the fruits of the unions' labor. People are only just "fairly" compensated, IMO.

I mean that the unions are one of the key factors with changing people's work ethic.

I used to work with unions when managing tradeshows for a software company and while my upcoming anecdote is just that, I've heard it from lots of people...

Employees that are in unions are far more lazy and that attitude has filtered through the system.

We were told that we were working too hard, not enough pay, but that we could have the opposite! So I blame unions.


Does Japan have unions?

 

[Westy]

I have also spent a lot of time in union plants and they certainly can have a bad influence on a company. It has nothing to do with fighting for better compensation. Powerful unions tend to protect lazy workers. Companies can not get rid of or punish lazy workers. Those who would work hard get pissed off because others are doing nothing and get paid the same or more because of seniority. The whole system tends to degrade.

I have seen unions that realize that their own health depends on getting the job done and they aggressively police their own people to an extent that management can not. This is the exception to the rule though.

 

[jimmydean]

A lot of it comes down to pure cost. Intel is an example of big business cutting cost. They use American workers to produce a product and a process for manufacturing. Then once it's perfected, they ship the whole deal overseas.

The factory is cheaper, the labor is cheaper, and the raw materials are cheaper. There is also no grief (or at least a lot less grief) from the EPA about waste/pollution.

<edit> Intel has a HUGE plant in Ireland, so it's not just China/Japan/India when I say "overseas".

 

[ohio]

...so is the consensus here that their system is better and more proficient because of fundamentals/ethics that they base their businesses on? Rather than say, government standards, laws and trade issues that US businesses are always blaming?

Our government is the most business-friendly on earth. There are probably a few highly-specific exceptions in US history, but barring those, no business can blame the US government for their failures.

Also, back to my first point, I wouldn't say their system is better. It is better at a specific task - refining and optimizing within existing paradigms. It makes them Japan greatest 2nd movers on the planet. Grossly generalizing, America is still the best 1st mover, and India/China are better late entrants. We just need to pray we don't kill off those things that make us great innovators.

 

[Changleen]

We just need to pray we don't kill off those things that make us great innovators.

Like good education?

 

[Silver]

Japan isn't a capitalist system in the way the US is either. There is a lot of government involvement in the economy. Hell, up until this year the biggest bank in the world was the government owned Japanese postal service. I believe they have either spun of to being privately owned or are in the process of doing it.

Also, as mentioned, there is no CEO cult culture in Japan.

 

[SPINTECK]

I mean that the unions are one of the key factors with changing people's work ethic.

I used to work with unions when managing tradeshows for a software company and while my upcoming anecdote is just that, I've heard it from lots of people...

Employees that are in unions are far more lazy and that attitude has filtered through the system.

We were told that we were working too hard, not enough pay, but that we could have the opposite! So I blame unions.


Does Japan have unions?

Wow, didn't expect that coming from you. Unions can be corrupt and breed a certain culture, but how can you compare that to filthy wealthy shareholders pushing corporate policy to inflate their stocks for better ROI or to sell the company- which by the way happens all the time, especially in PA leaving their employees jobless.

H8R said it right- HONOR- on both sides. RIch company leadership not selling out their workers, therefore workers have empowerment, ownership and SECURITY!! Hire good people, treat them like people, get better work out of them.

 

[SPINTECK]

I may have killed this thread, but I'm not done yet.

In the first post working for less was mentioned. Why do American middle class workers take a hit and work for less while the average CEO, who used to only make 40 times the average pay now makes 400 times the average pay (this is including stock options, but I'm not sure it takes into account pension packages). Does the CEO of a japanese company make 400X that of their employees- I don't believe so, but have no documentation??

Japan was also subsidizing their entire steel industry. Easier to succeed and make good products when the government is throwing tons of cash your way.

"REally", isn't Japan just another extension of the U.S.??

Difference is Japanese are smarter and try to buy only Japanese stuff. THIS IS HUGE! Imagine if americans did that, maybe we'd make better stuff too? I bought stuff in Italy on honeymoon and all the stuff (cycling clothes) were actually made there!

Six sigma is a joke in this country- basically it's game stock holders use to sell treating people like sh1t to engineers/supervisors, who will only do it under the guise of product efficiently because even frontline competitors know how to treat people. I'm not a black belt in s.sigma, but I've had my green belt training and left supervision at J&J b/c the philosophy at my plant twisted it into evaluating people instead of the pure science of system/machine efficiency ( I had to give out raises based on unweighted bull**** numbers- not fair to my crew). Here it's all about screwing labor for political reasons instead of true system improvement.

And finally, I'm going through a stage in my life where I'm sick of seeing intelligent people take advantage of average or disadvantaged people......then society still blames the poor working joes while the smart asses reap the profits and hide out in Aspen (like enron). It's not right and from what I hear it's not practiced in Japan due to the culture.

Sorry Burley for the Rant, but all these VALUES are significant.

fin

 

[DaveW]

Spinteck..... BRAVO!
A pity I could only give you one lot of pos rep for that.

 

[narlus]

A lot of it comes down to pure cost. Intel is an example of big business cutting cost. They use American workers to produce a product and a process for manufacturing. Then once it's perfected, they ship the whole deal overseas.

The factory is cheaper, the labor is cheaper, and the raw materials are cheaper. There is also no grief (or at least a lot less grief) from the EPA about waste/pollution.

<edit> Intel has a HUGE plant in Ireland, so it's not just China/Japan/India when I say "overseas".

Our government is the most business-friendly on earth.

i would take jimmydean's side a bit here, solely due to taxation reasons....which is why i spent 15 months working in ireland, to bring a large MFG plant online...it's far cheaper for the company!

 

[N8 v2.0]

Lately I have been thinking alot about this because, since buying a home, I've purchased alot of power equipment to take care of the property. My brand of choice is "Echo," a japanese small 2-stroke engine company that makes very quality equipment for a competitive price. When initially looking, I wanted to buy American stuff, but when it came down to it, there either wasnt a US company in existence who offered what I wanted, or the prices were simply exorbitant for their high end manufactured products.
What I understand about Japan is it's a capitalist society like the US, with a similar standard of living to ours, however, where the manufacturing has been in a freefall here...it is thriving there. Why can they build tons of quality stuff like vehicles, dirtbikes, chainsaws, etc. where we cannot do the same? I mean vehicles here have gotten better recently, but anything else is either ridiculously expensive or made in china now. Didnt they model their system after ours after WWII?
I understand Japan also has universal healthcare and that the US workers' healthcare costs are built into the products they make, which raises prices or forces work overseas, but healthcare is only a piece of the puzzle. What are the other factors involved?
Do the japanese work for alot less?
How do they keep prices, costs so low and quality so high, and we cannot?

all of the US stuff is made in China

 

[MMike]

ohio touched on something that I've always kinda thought regarding creativity.....

The japanese seem to be REALLY REALLY good and taking an existing idea and running with it. Cars, electronics....the japanese didn't invent them, but they sure as hell seem to have taken a good idea and made them insanely better......

Which is why a few people I work with are getting nervous that Honda now builds airplanes!

 

[N8 v2.0]

ohio touched on something that I've always kinda thought regarding creativity.....

The japanese seem to be REALLY REALLY good and taking an existing idea and running with it. Cars, electronics....the japanese didn't invent them, but they sure as hell seem to have taken a good idea and made them insanely better......!

AMEN!!!


**Caution Psychological Nudity**

http://radicalvixen.com/blog/blogpics/fatal-beauties-hello-kitty.jpg

 

[valve bouncer]

You should be thanking whatever higher entity you favour that you're not a Japanese man working for a Japanese company. A more miserable existence would be hard to find. The Japanese blokes who I have time for are the ones who've seen it's a hoax and have refused to play the game.

 

[Westy]

They also don't spend much money on dental plans.

 

[FlyinPolack]

CEO's in japanese companies don't get $2Mil. severance packages. even if they fail...

 

[BurlyShirley]

all of the US stuff is made in China

All what US stuff? Echos'? Probably the plastic is molded there, but all the engines are done at Kioritz in Japan.

 

[Inclag]

Education. Better engineering, especially engineering geared towards efficient design and efficient manufacturing of said designs.

There were some good articles in the periodical Machine Design about how we are led to believe that there is a shortage of engineers in the US where in reality that is not really the case.

 

[BurlyShirley]

There were some good articles in the periodical Machine Design about how we are led to believe that there is a shortage of engineers in the US where in reality that is not really the case.

I go to a school pretty well known for its engineering dept. There are hundreds of those dorks running around, always studying in their nerderies. No shortage here.

 

[Inclag]

I go to a school pretty well known for its engineering dept. There are hundreds of those dorks running around, always studying in their nerderies. No shortage here.

Haha. At the school I went to, there was a group of people, about 70 or so, known as wedge-rats. They ran around on Friday nights in the whole kit; foam swords, armor, helmets....

 

[Westy]

I went to a school where pretty much 100% of the student population start out as engineers. It was a geek fest and I forged some paperwork so I could move off of campus after my first year. I decided it was much more fun to hang out with people who got bad grades because they drank too much than people who got bad grades because they spent too much time playing D&D.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I was thinking about that movie when I was posting this actually. Need to rewatch it. I wish Michael Keaton was still acting. He's pretty good.

...minus Batman II of course.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I went to a school where pretty much 100% of the student population start out as engineers. It was a geek fest and I forged some paperwork so I could move off of campus after my first year. I decided it was much more fun to hang out with people who got bad grades because they drank too much than people who got bad grades because they spent too much time playing D&D.

Bwahahaahaaa!!! Awesomeness.

 

[ohio]

They ran around on Friday nights in the whole kit; foam swords, armor, helmets....

You ever feel the desire to, say, shoot them with a gun?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

You ever feel the desire to, say, shoot them with a gun?

"Everytime I see someone with a Superman shirt on, I just want to shoot them in the chest. *BAM!!!* And when they start to bleed go, 'I guess not!! .....Superbleeder!'."

 

[Toshi]

ohio touched on something that I've always kinda thought regarding creativity.....

The japanese seem to be REALLY REALLY good and taking an existing idea and running with it. Cars, electronics....the japanese didn't invent them, but they sure as hell seem to have taken a good idea and made them insanely better......

Which is why a few people I work with are getting nervous that Honda now builds airplanes!

and did the americans invent cars, now? (no.)

simply repeating the mantra that the japanese lack creativity will bring americans scant solace when the economy is finally in the tank.

 

[MMike]

and did the americans invent cars, now? (no.)

simply repeating the mantra that the japanese lack creativity will bring americans scant solace when the economy is finally in the tank.

[/QUOTE]


Didn't Henry Ford-san have some involvement in the early automobile as we know it today?

edit: I KNOW Henry Ford didn't invent the automobile....I just wanted to say "Henry Ford-san"

 

[MMike]

....and I have similar discussion with people with the whole Boeing vs Airbus debate. I contend that while Airbus makes a fine airplane, they tend to be followers, rather than leaders. They have added their two-cents here and there of course. But If Boeing had never built the 707, where would Aribus have been? The modern airliner right now is the "tube with wings"... most people can't tell the difference between a 767 and an A330.

And again, the 787 vs the forthcoming A350.... the A350 will be the Airbus version of a Boeing idea. All Airbuses are based on a Boeing idea.

The Europeans HATE it when they hear that.......

 

[fluff]

and did the americans invent cars, now? (no.)

simply repeating the mantra that the japanese lack creativity will bring americans scant solace when the economy is finally in the tank.

Yup, I've read some pretty convincing debunking of the myth that the Japanese cannnot innovate, and can only copy. Still keeps the gaijin feeling superior I guess. Pretty sad really.

 

[Westy]

Quite frankly I think the Japanese are so weird that they would have more of a problem grasping reality than being creative.

 

[MMike]

I wouldn't say they don't innovate. Improving and fixing manufacturing flow require all manner of smarts and innovation.

I'm not trying to be obtuse....I'm just having a hard time thinking of some modern/every-day thing that was initially conceived of in Japan. I don't doubt they exist. I just can't think of anything.

 

[X3pilot]

I wouldn't say they don't innovate. Improving and fixing manufacturing flow require all manner of smarts and innovation.

I'm not trying to be obtuse....I'm just having a hard time thinking of some modern/every-day thing that was initially conceived of in Japan. I don't doubt they exist. I just can't think of anything.

Anime and Hello Kitty???

 

[BurlyShirley]

I wouldn't say they don't innovate. Improving and fixing manufacturing flow require all manner of smarts and innovation.

I'm not trying to be obtuse....I'm just having a hard time thinking of some modern/every-day thing that was initially conceived of in Japan. I don't doubt they exist. I just can't think of anything.

Nunchuks?

 

[X3pilot]

I wouldn't say they don't innovate. Improving and fixing manufacturing flow require all manner of smarts and innovation.

I'm not trying to be obtuse....I'm just having a hard time thinking of some modern/every-day thing that was initially conceived of in Japan. I don't doubt they exist. I just can't think of anything.

Ninjas?

 

[Westy]

I wouldn't say they don't innovate. Improving and fixing manufacturing flow require all manner of smarts and innovation.

I'm not trying to be obtuse....I'm just having a hard time thinking of some modern/every-day thing that was initially conceived of in Japan. I don't doubt they exist. I just can't think of anything.

I wouldn't know what to do without my cat annoyer.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/5921/inventor2.html

 

[Westy]

Even more
http://sqzm14.ust.hk/gt-inventions.html

 

[BurlyShirley]

Chinese finger traps?

 

[Westy]

Bukakke?

 

[Westy]

Suicide bombers

 

[MMike]

Pokemon?