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What did I do wrong (wheel building).

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
So I'm lacing up my front wheel, everything looks right, I didn't cross my valve, I'm good to go. The problem in that all of my heads-out spokes are tight, all the heads-in spokes are loose. I did the over 2 under 1, everything is right, just every two spokes on the rim are either loose or tight.

What did I do wrong?
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
Wow, what did I ever do to you?

I retract my first statement about the spokes, apparently its heads out on one side that are loose, heads in on the other side that loose. The result is at the rim 2 spokes sticking out then the previous and prior sets.
 

pHeller

Monkey
Nov 5, 2007
106
0
You didn't do anything to me.

I just thought you might like the comic relief.

Apparently not.

I haven't ever tried to build a wheel, so your doing better than me, chief.
 

Mr Tiles

I'm a beer snob
Nov 10, 2003
3,474
0
L-town ya'll
100% sure the spoke lengths are correct?

Have you started tightening everything up and keeping an eye on the dish?

Usually when I building a wheel, after every spoke has been laced, everything is loose. I start tightening each spoke 1/4 turns until everything starts to snug up.
 

A Grove

Monkey
Nov 20, 2007
497
0
State College, PA
it sounds to me like you have opposite pulling spokes going on.. is it every two spokes are either real loose or real tight? If so, then you do indeed have opposite pulling spokes. Learned that one the hardway building up my front wheel not tooo long ago...
 

Evil4bc

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2005
1,080
0
Nor-Cal
it sounds to me like you have opposite pulling spokes going on.. is it every two spokes are either real loose or real tight? If so, then you do indeed have opposite pulling spokes. Learned that one the hardway building up my front wheel not tooo long ago...

Yea the pattern is set the wrong direction , so when you rotated you hub to put the cross into the wheel , on the opposite side one of the spoke patterns should have gone the other way , thats why it just little long on one one set of spokes in the overall patter of the wheel.

I do it sometimes too , happens to all of us :disgust1:
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
put up a picture of the wheel from the side and a pic looking at the spokes around the valve stem hole.
 

A Grove

Monkey
Nov 20, 2007
497
0
State College, PA
put up a picture of the wheel from the side and a pic looking at the spokes around the valve stem hole.
It sounds to me like its no issue with the valve stem hole.. I'm putting 50 bucks down that hes got opposite pulling spokes. Its easy to do and makes building the wheel impossible, plus it does exactly what he described in his second post.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
Ya, I'm sure thats it. The wife and I just watched "Death Sentence" that was my comic relief :-). I actually am all about Sheldon's stuff, used it on the rr, just thought I'd slam through the front with out double checking my poo. Oh well, tomorrow I'll just relace it.
 

BikeSATORI

Monkey
Apr 13, 2007
723
0
one world...
what are the two different spoke lengths?

Maybe on your last rotation of cross spokes, you swapped sides/spoke lengths by accident?
I'm not sure what A Grove was talking about with "opposite pulling spokes", but maybe that's what he was trying to get at and I just didn't understand... ?


That Sheldon guide is great too! Can pretty much do it from the pictures alone from what I can see there... and in depth details too if you want to catch quick tips.




...and on kind of a related side note, I'm just curious, did you use any spoke-prep? Or prolock nipples? did you lube the eyelets, or no? Simply wondering how other people 'round these parts go about it.
I've had good luck with wheelsmith spoke-prep, and lightly lube up the nips/eyelets with some waterproof phil wood. Doesn't quite seal it all the way, but I've gone on rides in the past through all day rain... then at the end of the day, I could spin the rims and I could hear water spinning in there like a washing machine! crazy! So now I just kind of hope to seal the inner rim chambers as best I can.
 

A Grove

Monkey
Nov 20, 2007
497
0
State College, PA
I'm not sure what A Grove was talking about with "opposite pulling spokes", but maybe that's what he was trying to get at and I just didn't understand... ?
Whenever I lace my wheels... I start off by lacing one side so the spokes are set "radially" usually driveside for rear, disk for front, but it doesnt matter one bit)... THEN I "set the pattern" by rotating the wheel and setting one spoke (blah blah blah, you know the jazz with the valve hole). THEN I flip the wheel over, and set the pattern for that side of the wheel. Put the rest of the spokes in, tension, dish, ping, true, ping, true, etc.

Now... If he has the issue that every TWO spokes are either tight or loose, he has what I (AKA my pops, he taught me how to build wheels this way, works awesome once you get used to it) would refer to as opposite inside/outside pulling spokes. Refering to sheldons, the "pulling spokes" i refer to are what he calls the "trailing spokes." These are the spokes that under pedal pressure from the rear wheel (but it still accounts the same on the front wheel due to building the wheel correctly with a symmetrical pattern), they tighten to "pull" the hub. Now, if his "leading spokes" are set in opposite directions (which is actually a VERY easily made mistake), this will cause every two spokes to be either loose, or tight.

Not sure if that helps to clear up what I was saying before, but I gave it my best shot :p
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
No, that was good, I totally get what your saying. So basically my spokes are just flipped the wrong way on one side? Whatever, like I said, I'll just start from scratch. I was rushed last night and just slipped up.

Dave, I usually just put lube on the threads and nipples. This is my first time using alloy, so that might be an issue, we will see, but there is enough stuff on there to keep things running pretty smooth.

Thanks for all of your help.
 

brungeman

I give a shirt
Jan 17, 2006
5,173
0
da Burgh
**EDIT** I start by putting half the spokes into one hub flange, then flip the hub and putting the other half into the other flange. then take...

2 spokes at a time... for a 3 cross, start with a heads down and I count over 3 heads up spokes and cross it back with the heads down spoke and insert into spoke holes. I do this all the way around on one side, flip the wheel over and do the same thing on the other. If you start out at your valve stem hole correctly, then you will not cross the stem hole!

for a 2x the same as above but count 2 heads up spokes etc.

I have tried putting them together by putting all the heads up spokes in then all the heads down spokes crossing, but it never made sense, and always came out fvcked up! :poster_oops:
 

A Grove

Monkey
Nov 20, 2007
497
0
State College, PA
Hey, I've seen people string a wheel 20 different ways, its all what works for you. Its no big deal, honestly. I've done it numerous times. really, all you have to do is figure out which side is the issue, and take those spokes out, then re-string that sides pattern. obviously returning all the spoke nipples to the same place.
 

PhilipW

Monkey
Mar 13, 2007
313
0
Leominster, MA
well...if you want to do it right.

having said that, I have laced a front wheel and dished it in the fork...but that was my buddy's dh rig...with some atomlab rims.

With heavier duty rims, you can get away with sucking at building wheels. I learned when tensioning up the wheel to get the nips up to the last thread, and then usually tighten it around 3 turns to get the wheel fairly tightened up. Then for extra measure I do usually about another turn and then set the spokes (put the hub against the floor, put hands on sides and lean into it.) And then I dish and stress the spokes a little more before really getting nit picky in the truing stand.

Always use spoke prep, and sometimes in special cases it may be ok to use a super small dab of blue locktite on the last thread of the spoke. ...seems to keep my wheel fairly tighter. I trashed my last rim learning tailwhips when the spokes kept loosening (and deforming the rim)
 

BikeSATORI

Monkey
Apr 13, 2007
723
0
one world...
I really need to try my hand at this one day. Is a trueing stand absolutely necessary?
not really necessary, but will make it ten times quicker and easier. I'd say like 90% necessary.

Like philw86 said, it's possible to do it while mounted on a bike, and rim brakes help, but you could even use zip-ties or something. Take a look at the Revenge Industries (S&M) U-brakes. They come with some little bars that thread into the brake caliper that make it so they can essentially turn your frame into a truing stand. I've used them on my Molly to slighly true a wheel before, but never to actually build one (I've got a park stand).

I'd say go ahead and try your hand at it! Best way to learn, and honestly, IMO, it isn't as much of an unacheivable art form as many make it sound to be... or maybe I just suck and don't realize it, haha.
Really though, it may seem intimidating, but have a guide with you, or info source, or even just another wheel that is laced exactly like how you plan on doing it, and you'll have something to look at and refer to with your hands, then just make sure and take your time being positive your order is right (like what this thread is about) and you'd be all set, as long as you have the proper tools and spoke lengths. If you mess up, just take it apart and start over, although doing that too much will put a lot of wear on your nipples.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
Alright, that wheel went together easier then any other wheel I have built. Its just the initial placement on each side that will throw me, A or B rim, ya know. Whatever. The wheel is awesome, Sheldon Brown spells it out easier then anyone, but thanks to all that threw out some info. Can't wait till these things are hanging on the a frame!

And to throw in my .02 on the wheel trueing and building, its honestly not that difficult, but, on lighter rims go darn slow tensioning or you are going to create some huge problems. My fixie wheels have never had to be trued (helps if you don't have brakes ;-)).

Take care
 

Bulldog

Turbo Monkey
Sep 11, 2001
1,009
0
Wisconsin
Alright, that wheel went together easier then any other wheel I have built. Its just the initial placement on each side that will throw me, A or B rim, ya know. Whatever. The wheel is awesome, Sheldon Brown spells it out easier then anyone, but thanks to all that threw out some info. Can't wait till these things are hanging on the a frame!

And to throw in my .02 on the wheel trueing and building, its honestly not that difficult, but, on lighter rims go darn slow tensioning or you are going to create some huge problems. My fixie wheels have never had to be trued (helps if you don't have brakes ;-)).

Take care
A and B always throw me. What rims did you wind up with?

Hey if you have a bike stand please hit me up if you see this. I need to install a couple drivetrains this weekend (or sometime soon) to get the big bikes ready.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
Sorry Bud, I don't have one. I took Dorf's trueing stand, but I think you already knew that.

As for rims. Pimplite rr (for a brake track) and then the FRX front. Its a slick set of wheels cuz the front really is brake free of any sorts (you couldn't run a rim brake or disk)! And of course they are solid black which makes them super sweet! I really have my fingers crossed that it will be here before spring break (the week before easter).

BTW, are you still thinking about a Molly or something. There are a few for sale right now, could be a good time to make the jump!
 

RAMNATION1

Chimp
Oct 24, 2007
42
0
MY PROBLEM... when a full day is in order, and it's late at night. NEVER TRY and lace a wheel... I have been building wheels for 12 years now, and it doesn't make a difference... when you're tired you will f it up every time... sleep it off and next day, unlace and relace immediately... should have it all said and done within an hour(unlaced laced trued and tensioned) make sure your dish is good...
 

sittingduck

Turbo Monkey
Jun 22, 2007
1,962
0
Oregon
I've always done a ghetto build. No stand, no dish tool. I tighten the spokes as evenly as possible, then dish and true with the wheel in the bike. So far it has worked out just fine.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
With disks and beefy rims I can see it, but for lighter stuff and rim brakes I think it might get a little hard. Especially with dish and the hops. Oh well, good for you if you can do it.
 

Bulldog

Turbo Monkey
Sep 11, 2001
1,009
0
Wisconsin
Sorry Bud, I don't have one. I took Dorf's trueing stand, but I think you already knew that.

As for rims. Pimplite rr (for a brake track) and then the FRX front. Its a slick set of wheels cuz the front really is brake free of any sorts (you couldn't run a rim brake or disk)! And of course they are solid black which makes them super sweet! I really have my fingers crossed that it will be here before spring break (the week before easter).

BTW, are you still thinking about a Molly or something. There are a few for sale right now, could be a good time to make the jump!
I need to build a ghetto stand off my garage wall or something then. Hmmm.

I wouldn't consider a Molly or FG until after I ride my 24 and your FG together for awhile. In my head right now there's no sense in spending all that money to switch unless I get off yours and just can't stop smiling. I'll admit to differences but don't know if it's worth the cost right now - and I'm running out of rafters in my garage to hang bikes from! :)