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what do you do when you catch hikers fouling the trail?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by $tinkle, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    our local park, palmer park, has lots of various riding, and almost all of it is multi-use: bike, hike, equine.

    there's a few trails in particular that dog-walkers let their dogs run wild (no problem), but they don't like bikes riding on "their" trails, so they put 10-30 lbs rocks in the turns in the trail, or other parts which are obviously hard to see until you're on top of them. maybe it's sierra club members...?

    i suspected this until recently when i came up & caught her. she then acted like she was moving it from the trail. i said nothing; i'm a dick in traffic, but not on trails

    i greet everyone i see on the trail w/o exception, so it isn't like i (or anyone in my group) gives them justifiable cause to do this. there was almost no one on the trails this morning, but obviously planted rocks were on nearly every trail. luckily, i was riding my bullit, but this is still a pita & causes friction for the community of trail users.

    what to do? i'd like solutions which don't prevent me from riding there again, so dirtmcgurk can keep suggestions to himself :)
     

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  2. johnbryanpeters

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    I would be inclined to watch and wait and try to get a conversation going - I am presuming that bike use on trails is legit. Does an access group own trail maintenance?
     
  3. drkenan

    drkenan anti-dentite

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    Are there any authority figures at said park?
     
  4. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I would take a picture, ask for her name, any type of "citizen arrest" BS you can think of.

    You are in the right here, so harass away.
     
  5. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    it's a multi-use trail system, and we (local riders) are pretty good about not breaking new trail (few exceptions of course, like 2 tech lines down canyons which are no where near proper paths). with no viable reason for authority figures, they aren't around - and it should stay that way.

    i was thinking of bringing a large sharpie & putting swaztikas on inter-trail rocks.

    one option i suppose is to just get over it & stfu. it should be about the ride, not the drama

    ed: trail maintenance is hit/miss, usually by medicine wheel or some other local group. i really should get involved.
     
  6. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    Put up an official looking sign saying moving of trail features is a crime.
     
  7. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    behind you, don't wait up.
    I :cupidarrow: palmer park.
     
  8. shocktower

    shocktower Monkey

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    I would take pictures ,and then tell the park ranger ,some one could get hurt ,this is stupid she is a psycho report this ,she will get in trouble with the park rangers
     
  9. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    no park ranger, and hardly any opportunity to catch anyone long enough to get out the digital. i do have my crappy tony hawk helmet cam. maybe i should bore it out to accept 5.56 w/ a firing pin that acts on the frequency of my bell
     
  10. SkaredShtles

    SkaredShtles I love NEWCASTLE and will ONLY drink NEWCASTLE!!!!

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    Just murder the offender(s) and feed them to the pigs.
     
  11. johnbryanpeters

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    Oh, bull****. Hostile confrontation gains nothing.
     
  12. CRoss

    CRoss Turbo Monkey

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    Not sure what I would do never run into one.

    Anyone know where that new jump in the tail came from?


    I would just inquire as to what they were doing. Get as much info from them as possible then report it to authorities, park ranger or cops. Endangering others safety is unacceptable.
     
  13. Skookum

    Skookum bikey's is cool

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    That's your best bet. Or try to get your local bike advocacy group involved or if you don't have one, start up a little bike coalition volunteer group.

    i can pretty much guarantee that these hikers are getting startled by mountain bikers ripping around blind corners.

    This is a classic issue in that most all multi-user trails are not built with mountain bikes in mind, and even when they are, most trail builders are still not adept at overcoming these challenges in a way where the trail still remains fun.

    So, as a trail volunteer first thing you could do, is find the worst blind corners, and you can do one of two things.

    You can chicane the trail using big ole rocks where a mountain biker is forced to slow through the turn. By putting a big rock to one side, then another big one to the opposite side. You can also hack away side-hill vegetation and sometime pull down a good 6 feet or so of side hill organic, down to mineral soil so nothing grows back a ways up the slope. This will help all users see better around corners.

    But yah you can also join your hippie group, that would be beneficial in that you can hear from other users their concerns and you can suggest solutions.

    Tap into the knowledge that other bikers are privy to, it's really not rocket science but it helps to acquire trail building literature, even more so just getting out there and getting dirty goes quite a way.
     
  14. Stray_cat

    Stray_cat Monkey

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    Ugg, stuff like this is a pain in the a$$. Involvment with trail maintenance type folks certainly helps. However it sometimes still doesn't always solve the issue of people who harbor the mentality:

    "I've been walkin Bessy here for 15 blessed, years and I'll be gosh darned if some BMXer (typically in this situation we're all regaled to BMXer -no offense to our 20" friends) trys to ride where me and Bessy step. I'm gonna go find some rocks now. etc...etc."

    Might sound harsh, but take the full measure of law into your hands if nothing changes. Charges of vandalism, and restraining orders can be obtained, and tend to work well against those sorts.

    Man the restaining order is timeless fun! Ah just thinking about it gets me excited. I don't have any concrete examples for restraining orders for trail systems, but it's proven effective at climbing spots were people where trying to "tamper" with the area. Even just a talking to by the people in suits might straighten em out. Allot of this depends on where the land managment stands with MTBing as well.

    Good luck
     
    #14 -   Nov 21, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008
  15. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    What's hostile about taking a picture and asking for a name?

    I didn't say make a citizens arrest or even try to detain the person.

    And if the rules of these trails is not to move features, then she is committing an infraction which should be reported.
     
  16. Skookum

    Skookum bikey's is cool

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    This is pretty key too. Getting to buddy up with the Ranger, and just letting them know you are a mountain biker and you care, goes a long way.

    Some people are always never going to be aligned with sharing, unfortunately their voices sometimes drown out the true majority that aren't selfish and stupid.
     
  17. AngryMetalsmith

    AngryMetalsmith Business is good, thanks for asking

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    Skooks is right, get involved with the local trail advocacy group. You might even find that playing with others can be fun.

    Confrontation in this case could escalate trail sabotage. This woman is intentionally trying to cause you to crash. If you get all crazy and verbally assault the bitch, then you should expect to find some barbed wire at neck level at the end of a blind corner.


    And leave the Nazi sh1t in the closet.
     
  18. Bullitrider

    Bullitrider Monkey

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    You should have said something like this to her:

    "I'm glad some one else feels like I do about these rocks in the way. I'll help you."

    Then proceed to remove the rocks with her and tell her your committed to helping her remove them all day if that's what it takes.

    See how long it takes before she cracks and "blows her cover". :monkeydance:
     
  19. johnbryanpeters

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    It's a passive aggression move and tends to put the other party on the defensive from the get-go, getting in the way of starting a dialog. It's not clear from the information presented so far that an "infraction" has occurred - there may be no rules that have been broken other than a generalized lack of respect for others.
     
  20. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    And if someone crashes because there is a rock where none was before?

    If you want to say, "Don't move that rock, someone could get hurt." Good for you.

    If I saw someone pushing a 25 lb rock into a turn, no simple task, right in my way, that's not much different than spreading tacks. It is an maneuver which the downside is someone gets hurt.

    You want riders to slow down safely, put up a sign.
     
    #20 -   Nov 21, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008
  21. jasride

    jasride Turbo Monkey

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    this sounds pretty good. i like it.

    do you think she was close to being hit a time or two and now she's pist? Or do you think she just hates bikes?
     
  22. mandown

    mandown Poopdeck Repost

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    i just decided to mount a cow-catcher on my 888 lowers. it moves the rocks and the hikers... haven't tried it on a cow yet.

     
  23. Kanye West

    Kanye West 220# bag of hacktastic

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    Being hostile may sure put the fear of god into them if done right.

    There's no reason anyone sabotaging a trail should be let out of sight with anything less than the physical harm that is 100% due. If someone was actually standing on the side of the trail through a turn and knocked you off your bike, would you ASK for a name and say "I'm going to tell"? This is really no different.

    Albeit if it were on a DH trail, it'd be pretty hard to even slow someone down. There were rock "walls" put up on a popular trail near me years ago. The "wall was about a foot and half tall stack of rocks. We did not even have to slow down for it. 3 riders and the thing was flattened in 10 seconds. And we had a new scattering of rocks as an added feature.

    People have been caught putting string across high speed sections of trails before. Most of them the cops never hear about.
     
  24. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    the rangers here are pretty cool; they know about pirate trails & as long as it's hard to find & uses natural features, they don't mind. they did, however, take down a very large section of skinnies b/c it was deteriorating to the point of being a legit safety hazard.
    that's the thing - it's a respect issue. but it could degrade into something else unless i have all the offending hikers buried & made into a pump track
    a fair point
     
  25. AngryMetalsmith

    AngryMetalsmith Business is good, thanks for asking

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    If you need a cow catcher on a 888, you're doing something wrong.
     
  26. Skookum

    Skookum bikey's is cool

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    All the same, if you get on some kind of email list it will work better for you. Any government outfit can get a wild hair and decide to re-designate trail access. If you can get a feel for the pulse of the area, you'll have great influence if crap goes bad. Alot of Rangers are indeed cool, but sometimes decisions get made over their heads.

    You might be able to do alot of work through a non-biking volunteer group, and that's well and good. But to me that's an easy way of being lost in the shuffle too, if access issues are ever brought up. And with people going so far as to sabotage the trail it's likely these same folk are putting in complaints against bikers. i personally dunno what your local community is like....

    So i would encourage you to be proactive, never hurts to find out what's really going on. And if you got people who are building skinnies, and Rangers that are cool about trails just "showing up".... You've got great opportunities alot of other mountain bikers don't have. Potential volunteer workforce and easy going land managers.... That's 90% of the battle right there.
     
  27. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    Take pics of them doing it, get hurt and sue the crap out of them + prosecute for pre meditated maliciousness! Or something along those lines.
     
  28. pinkshirtphotos

    pinkshirtphotos site moron

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    woahh you mean to tell me there are ROCKS on your mountain cycling trails? Damn never woulda thought that could happen. All seriousness though, maybe ask some hikers in the parking lot what they know about the rocks being moved?
     
  29. Rip

    Rip Mr. Excitement

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    I'd be lost without rocks.
     
  30. Transcend

    Transcend My Nuts Are Flat

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    Towing the party line.
    Starting dialog with people like this is like trying to debate things with crazy born again, fundamentalist christians. Impossible. Sort of like talking to a brick wall.
     
    #30 -   Nov 22, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008
  31. johnbryanpeters

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    I think that may vary by region.

    The whole conversation is interesting to me - I'm on the board of directors of a local conservation group that manages a 600 acre woodland piece - one of the reasons I weaseled my way into the board was to preserve MTB access. We have problems with invading four wheelers and motorcycles and various people build rock and log barriers to discourage them and/or slow them down.

    There are other riding areas around here where trails are maintained informally by different users - A builds, B removes or alters.

    Working together and discussing differences seems to work better than hostile confrontation.
     
  32. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    1. Yes it would look bad for a member of the board of directors to get into a hostile confrontation with any trail user for any reason.

    However, working in an official capacity limits your actions as well. One official trail builder never went on any night rides because he could not afford to be caught riding illegally, even though all the trails were legal in the day time.

    2. However, in your official capacity, you could still take a picture of an offending trail user and request her name, except it would be an authorized act.

    3. So, in your official capacity, you would allow someone else to move trail features that could potentially hurt another rider simply to maintain good relations?

    Finally, I am member of several trail building organizations. I am not a director but if the trade off is passively allowing people to destroy trails, I rather be just a member.
     
  33. johnbryanpeters

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    sanjuro,

    I have no idea where you're coming from. In the case of our area, trail users are not not "destroying trails", they're impeding illegal motorized traffic. The four wheeler crowd here tends to be the deer jacking crew riding in packs.

    In case you haven't figured it out, trails are effectively impossible to police. The best you can do over time is to get all the users, or most of them, pulling in the same direction. Federal, state and local law enforcement is not really a resource; they're neither chartered nor budgeted to intercede in trail use disputes. You could take pictures all day long, but they're not useful for anything.
     
  34. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I'm not telling you how to change trail policy. Maybe you forgotten what happened in the original post:

    I'm saying a very effective way to prevent an individual trail abuser from ever touching a rock or a twig again is to impress upon her that she is committing a crime.

    Yelling or even just chatting with her is just offering your opinion. Take her picture and get her information, and she knows she has just been caught. Maybe it is not a crime, but she won't know that.

    Trust me, as a habitual rule breaker and part time anarchist, I am afraid of the camera.
     
    #34 -   Nov 22, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008
  35. jdcamb

    jdcamb Tool Time!

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    Kick said persons ass in a brutally vicious manner with the same level of disregard they apparently have for other trail users.... What are they going to do call the police?? Hey I Was out sabotaging the trails and I got caught and got my ass beat down. I wanna press charges. Very seldom in life do you get a get out of jail free card like that.....
     
  36. jerseydirt

    jerseydirt Turbo Monkey

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    Why dont you find her and Option1: get a bunch of people to make a pile of rocks on the hiking trail and blame it on her she has to move them all by herself.

    Option 2: bury her in rocks.
    Option 3: Find out were the culperate lives and leave piles of rocks on her door step for a week straight, hopefully that will get the message through, and if it doesnt, just take a crap in her shoes.
     
  37. longhaultrucker

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    that's my thought too,but knowing my luck,she'd end up being the local police cheif's daughter,go home and hump a broom,and cry rape.

    at any rate,something would need to be done,before she causes somebody to be serioulsy hurt and/or killed.hey,it ain't a macho bull**** thing either...you and i might enjoy the added trail feature,but what about the mom n pop riding w/ their kids?catch her in the act,snap a picture,make a firm/harsh LEGAL ACTION threat,then if that doesn't stop her,crash,find a cheezy doc and an ambulance chaser,and sue the **** out of her using the pic you took:greedy::cheers:
     
  38. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    BTW, we are talking apples and oranges here.

    Stinkle deals with ladies who think they are performing a community service. You are dealing with weekend warriors with guns and 4-wheelers.

    I have dealt with both, and you are right, I wouldn't be snapping photos and asking for names if the other person had a gun.

    I don't expect much with the hunter types, except I won't be backing down to any of them.
     
  39. DirtMcGirk

    DirtMcGirk <b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm

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    Like that was going to happen.

    I would advise you take my Hero and Personal Lord and Savior's advice.

    From the Bible of Joe Pesci:
    "A lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more holes. You could be there all ****in' night."
     
  40. jdcamb

    jdcamb Tool Time!

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    pee on them.... just whip it out and start going as you run up to them. cackle as they run away... shout out haha i peed on you for good measure....