Quantcast

What if America Just Pulled Out of Iraq?

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus

"History, from Algeria to Vietnam, suggests that no military solution to a spreading insurgency is possible."

:rolleyes:
Oh really???

The author of this piece must not have heard of post WWII Malaysia... or the Phillipines... or the US Civil War.... The problems begin when a military solution is exchanged for a political solution.






What if America Just Pulled Out?
NY Times | September 26, 2004 | ROGER COHEN

EVEN by its own disturbing standards, this was a hallucinatory week in Iraq. Beheadings, kidnappings, bombings, outbreaks of deadly disease and everyday mayhem were accompanied by interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's upbeat statement to Congress: "We are succeeding in Iraq."

Are we? The discordant images and messages captured a central difficulty of defining an Iraq policy. In the absence of any semblance of agreement on what the situation is, or even who is behind the insurgency, setting a course is problematic. But with more than 1,000 Americans already dead, and more dying each week, one question has begun to be posed with growing insistence: Should American forces leave?

There are several arguments for getting out, or at least setting a timetable for doing so. The status quo is unacceptable. History, from Algeria to Vietnam, suggests that no military solution to a spreading insurgency is possible. A major counteroffensive would almost certainly require a large addition to the 138,000 troops in Iraq, an unattractive prospect to politicians of any stripe.

A decision to withdraw would focus the minds of Iraqis, and perhaps their neighbors, on the need to grapple seriously with establishing security and an inclusive political system. It would also remove a chief target of the insurgents - American infidels in uniform - and so presumably undermine their cause.

"A withdrawal plan says to the Iraqis: you want this to be your country, you must make the deals to keep it together," said Leslie Gelb, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations. "If we are there to fight, they won't do this. So a timetable should be established."

But the counterarguments are also powerful. Withdrawal in the absence of stability would amount to a devastating admission of failure and a blow to America's world leadership. The credibility of the United States, already compromised, would be devastated. More than 1,000 young lives would appear to have been blotted out for naught.

Iraq might descend into all-out civil war and split into three pieces, one Kurdish, one Shiite, one predominantly Sunni. Neighboring states, particularly Iran and Turkey, would be drawn in. A failed state - or the vestiges of one - would draw terrorists as surely as a honey-pot draws bees.

There is a troubling recent precedent for such a retreat. When the Soviet Union, confronted by an intractable insurgency, pulled out of Afghanistan, Kabul soon became terrorism central. The Taliban took control, offering sanctuary to Al Qaeda and terrorist training camps. The Soviet Union, sapped by its Afghan adventure, never fully recovered.

Is this the trauma the United States wants from its foray into Iraq?

"Iraq would be worse than post-Soviet Afghanistan," said Philip Gordon of the Brookings Institution. "Its oil and geostrategic importance ensures that. The Lebanese civil war dragged in Syria, and just as surely the civil war that would result from an American withdrawal would drag in Iran and Turkey. You'd see ethnic strife that would make Kosovo look like a picnic. It's hard to fathom how bad it would be if we left."

Under President Bush, the prospect of such a pullout appears remote for now. He told Mr. Allawi this week that, "America will stand with you until freedom and justice have prevailed." The president has shown no sign, at least in this electoral season, of wavering from the we-will-stay-the-course message that has been constant since the invasion last year.

John Kerry, the Democratic candidate, has tried to stake out a distinct position, saying he would aim to bring American forces home within four years, beginning next year. But while lashing out at the administration for what he has portrayed as disastrous incompetence, he has been cautious on the question of withdrawal.

As Richard Holbrooke, a foreign policy adviser to Mr. Kerry, put it: "Troops are dying at an unacceptable rate, but to pull out now would be crazy and beyond dangerous. We have to work harder on a political power-sharing arrangement, because there is no military solution to this thing."

That proposition is not accepted by commanders in Iraq, who are focused on the rapid development of the Iraqi army. For now, the military is contemplating reinforcements not withdrawals. Gen. John P. Abizaid, the American commander in Iraq, told Congress last week that "we will need more troops than we currently have to secure the elections process in Iraq that will probably take place in the end of January."

He added that he hoped enough Iraqi or international forces could do the job, but "we can't discount" the possibility that more United States soldiers would be required. A temporary increase of troops, perhaps by as much as 15,000, might be achieved through overlap during the planned rotation of forces in January.

Another factor is behind the idea of possible reinforcements: Areas of central Iraq, in the so-called Sunni Triangle, are no longer under government control. At some point, probably toward the end of the year, they will have to be retaken. This may not be doable with current troop levels.

But American commanders are hopeful that the nascent Iraqi army - 50,000 combat-ready troops today and 145,000 by January, according to Mr. Allawi -will help do the job and then patrol cities like Falluja that are now strongholds of the insurgency. The retaking of places like Falluja is viewed as urgent because they provide havens for the resistance to plan, plot and pounce.

"Either you leave or you control the country," said Javier Solana, the former NATO secretary general who is now the European Union's foreign policy chief. In New York last week for the United Nations General Assembly, he met with several senior American officials. "You cannot be in a situation like this,'' he said in a brief interview.

Several factors complicate that situation for the stay-the-course school. Resentment of America is such that any Iraqis - and that includes Mr. Allawi - who ally themselves with the United States probably have dim long-term political prospects, to say nothing of the more basic difficulty of staying alive.

Relations between the insurgents and the rest of the Iraqi community often appear so seamless that it can be hard to know which side the police and soldiers being trained will end up fighting on.

An important potential source of reinforcement - Muslim troops from allied nations -remains elusive because of the American presence. Gen. Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistani president, last week refused a request from Iraq's interim administration to send troops.

"We cannot be seen as an extension of the present forces there," he said. In other words, an explosion of anger from anti-American Islamic radicals in Pakistan would result from any Iraqi deployment. Saudi Arabia has been evasive for similar reasons.

America's Western allies are also divided. One foreign minister of a major European power suggested that the United States should reinvent its fight on terrorism through a three-pronged approach: set a timetable for Iraqi withdrawal while working to broaden Mr. Allawi's coalition; inject new energy into the quest for an Israeli-Palestinian settlement; focus on coming up with a joint American-European plan to engage with Iran and so defuse its nuclear-weapons program.

"Iraq," the minister, who insisted on anonymity because of the sensitivity of his country's ties to the United States, said, "is the wrong battle and a losing one."

Insurgents in the predominantly Sunni cities of Falluja, Baquba and others know that this division exists, even if NATO is sending a small, noncombatant training mission to Iraq. The Western powers are weakened because they are less united than in many years. That gives the insurgency more leverage.

Are these difficulties insuperable? If so, should American forces pack their bags? No believer in the ultimate beneficence of American world leadership can easily accept that outcome. But one thing is certain: Independent Arab states like Iraq are largely a 20th-century creation, places with vivid memories of colonial rule and a visceral abhorrence of the presence of foreign troops.

"Independence and freedom from foreign forces is a major political value," said Abdel Monem Said, director of Al Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo. "So the insurgency enjoys some support in the Arab world, because someone must resist, some manhood is needed."

Robert Cooper, a British diplomat and author, said: "If you don't even know exactly who you are fighting, winning can be very tricky. So we have to go. But how to get out is the great question. Somebody should write a book about military withdrawals because they are so much more difficult than invasions."
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:

"History, from Algeria to Vietnam, suggests that no military solution to a spreading insurgency is possible."

:rolleyes:
Oh really???

The author of this piece must not have heard of post WWII Malaysia... or the Phillipines... or the US Civil War.... The problems begin when a military solution is exchanged for a political solution.
So N8, are you advocating keeping US troops in Iraq forever, killing anyone who disagrees with America? If you're not you are gonna have to have a 'political' solution at some point...

Who are you aiming this at? Who does suggest pulling US troops out now?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
fluff said:
So N8,....
Who are you aiming this at? Who does suggest pulling US troops out now?

French surrender monkeys... who else?

Conference on Iraq must discuss possible US pullout: France
Khaleej Times Online | 27 September 2004 | AFP Staff

PARIS - Any international conference on the conflict in Iraq ought to discuss the question of whether the US-led forces should withdraw from that country, French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said on Monday, describing the situation in Iraq as a ”black hole.”

Barnier, whose country opposed the invasion of Iraq, hinted that France could make the inclusion of a possible withdrawal on the agenda a condition for agreeing to the conference.

“It is an issue which should be on the agenda of such a conference, if we want it to take place,” he said, speaking on the state-owned France Inter radio station.

The question of a withdrawal of US-led forces from Iraq “will come up, indeed it is already raised by the situation,” said Barnier. The current situation in Iraq was like a “black hole,” he said.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell on Sunday suggested the holding of an international conference on the situation in Iraq.

He also suggested that it could take place in October, which would put it just before the US presidential election.

Barnier also said that any such conference should also take place within the framework of the United Nations.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Ah, all those Frenchies who come here eh?

Now, would you care to answer my other question:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by N8

The problems begin when a military solution is exchanged for a political solution.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So N8, are you advocating keeping US troops in Iraq forever, killing anyone who disagrees with America? If you're not you are gonna have to have a 'political' solution at some point...
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
N8 said:
Oooooooookay.... time for you to return to the MotherShip...
What? I can hardly understand your primitive language... this always happens before they beam me back up :angry:

Sorry for some reason I read it backwards... I thought you had said, when a political solution is exchanged for a military solution.... DOH!
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
:thumb:


Exit Strategies are for Losers
UMList | 27 Sep 04 | S. H. Zinser

America has been in Bosnia and Kosovo since about 1995 and 1998, respectively.

What are the exit strategies from those places? From the weak-kneed folks who yearn to turn tail and run from Iraq a mere year and a half into the campaign, one hears no clamor at all to “exit” the Balkans.

In short, having an exit strategy sounds like your side is LOSING....and is asking “How do I disentangle myself?” That thought should be far from our minds in Iraq. The truth is that in Iraq we had historic success in the high intensity phase of combat, and then we demonstrated time and again in Najaf, Fallujah, and elsewhere that our troops succeed smashingly every time they engage an enemy on the ground in any mid-intensity to low-intensity engagement. Now we are demonstrating that we are succeeding in those unusual types of conflict -- counter-insurgency, terrorism, and nation-building.

15 of 18 provinces in Iraq are now secure. Water flows, oil flows, electricity is dispensed, jobs are created, government is taking shape, schools are open, businesses are being created....those are all indications of WINNING.

Since we are winning, why in the world would we consider an EXIT STRATEGY as if we were losing and needed some "tail between our legs" response? Only defeatist, negative-thinking depressives have the words “exit strategy” on their lips at a time such as this.

As near as I can tell, our focus is on success.

When you leave after succeeding, you don't call that an "exit strategy."

You call that triumph!

And when you redeploy back home, you have a Triumphal Celebration.
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
N8 said:
:thumb:


Exit Strategies are for Losers
UMList | 27 Sep 04 | S. H. Zinser

America has been in Bosnia and Kosovo since about 1995 and 1998, respectively.

What are the exit strategies from those places? From the weak-kneed folks who yearn to turn tail and run from Iraq a mere year and a half into the campaign, one hears no clamor at all to “exit” the Balkans.

In short, having an exit strategy sounds like your side is LOSING....and is asking “How do I disentangle myself?” That thought should be far from our minds in Iraq. The truth is that in Iraq we had historic success in the high intensity phase of combat, and then we demonstrated time and again in Najaf, Fallujah, and elsewhere that our troops succeed smashingly every time they engage an enemy on the ground in any mid-intensity to low-intensity engagement. Now we are demonstrating that we are succeeding in those unusual types of conflict -- counter-insurgency, terrorism, and nation-building.

15 of 18 provinces in Iraq are now secure. Water flows, oil flows, electricity is dispensed, jobs are created, government is taking shape, schools are open, businesses are being created....those are all indications of WINNING.

Since we are winning, why in the world would we consider an EXIT STRATEGY as if we were losing and needed some "tail between our legs" response? Only defeatist, negative-thinking depressives have the words “exit strategy” on their lips at a time such as this.

As near as I can tell, our focus is on success.

When you leave after succeeding, you don't call that an "exit strategy."

You call that triumph!

And when you redeploy back home, you have a Triumphal Celebration.
How many troops are stationed there compared to Iraq?

As for "exit stradegy" that is just stupid, anyone that thinks we should exit is a moron. Still, that doesnt discount the fact that we never should have entered in the first place.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
fluff said:
So N8, are you advocating keeping US troops in Iraq forever, killing anyone who disagrees with America? If you're not you are gonna have to have a 'political' solution at some point...

I suggest we keep maintain an active counter offensive military presence in country until the Iraqi government can deal with the terrorists/rebels on their own.

The political solution will have to be homegrown Iraqi and not something cooked up by the US Congress.

So, yes, we will be in Iraq killing terrorist mo'fo's for the next decade.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
fluff said:
Is terrorists really the correct term?
Well duh! Anyone fighting counter to the US government and our interests is a terrorist. You are also welcome to use the terms:
"bad guys"
"evil-doers"
"islamic fundamentalists" (note: this term CAN apply to anyone, from communist rebels to secular pacifists, as long as they are filled with the hatred of freedom)
"french"
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
N8 said:
:thumb:


Exit Strategies are for Losers
UMList | 27 Sep 04 | S. H. Zinser

America has been in Bosnia and Kosovo since about 1995 and 1998, respectively.
Hmmm... anyone remember Bush Sr and his "new world order"?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,904
2,867
Pōneke
$10 Rummy cuts and runs at the first opportunity and $10000000 that the violence continues after the US has left, no doubt claiming a job well done.