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What is an Iraqi life worth?

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
The USA doing what needs to be done since 1776...

What is an Iraqi life worth?
Nov 9, 2004 | unknown

Not much, according to our wonderful allies over there in the European Union and in most of the rest of the world.

Pondering a little bit about the Iraqi war and the reasons why the United States and it's close friends are fighting there, and something came to me. Sure, all the regular reasons why we're there came up, and all the reasons that no one ever speaks of (except in this hemisphere of the bloglobe) because of the fear that the country simply wont understand it.

But one reason hit me in the face like a ton of bricks, it's a reason that most of the world hasn't brought up. Or one that I just havn't read about it on a large scale like I have read about the hatred of America.

Why does the rest of the world look at an Iraqi civilian and say: "Those Iraqi's, ey, they're not worth fighting for."

America went to war with Saddam Husseins government for multiple reasons, and one of them was to liberate the Iraqi people. There were other reasons, and a lot of them more selfish than to give the Iraqi people a fresh start at a new life; a new life based on prosperity, freedom and democracy.

But nonetheless, one of the reasons was to fight for the Iraqi civilians.

The rest of the world (excluding the Coalition of the Willing) sat back and said no. Okay, fine. They didn't help, it's over with, fine.

My question is: What would those same countries have said if the United States of America said that it's soldiers weren't worth their civilians lives in World War I, or World War II?

What makes coming to their aid so necessary and coming to an Iraqi's aid so unnecessary?

If you ask me, it must be fear of retaliation from Islamic terrorists who wish to do harm to anyone who opposes them. And frankly, that disappoints me. It disappoints me that so many people, and governments, can be so afraid of an Islamic terrorist that they are willing to do the wrong thing if it means temporary safety from the hands of a murder. Shameless.

A lot of talk goes around speaking propaganda about how the U.S and it's friends did the wrong thing because of this and that; but they did the right thing because of one reason, and that one reason is more important than anything else.

The United States of America is fighting for a civilian population that the rest of the world would rather watch die, than fight for.

Yet another reason why America is the greatest nation on Earth.

Thank you, men and women of the United States Armed Forces, who are working hard over in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world where our military stands.

You are truly a cut above the rest.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,202
1,390
NC
Heh.

Hehehehe.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I find it amazing that people believe this kind of ludicrous propaganda.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
N8 said:
Damn us for attemting to bring democracy to a people who have never known it... we sure do suck.


:evil:

You know what? Even if it was for oil, taking out Saddam and installing a democracy while we're at it would still make it worth it to me. Call me crazy.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,403
22,487
Sleazattle
N8 said:
Damn us for attemting to bring democracy to a people who have never known it... we sure do suck.


:evil:
Is that the latest excuse? If so lets take out Cuba, the weather is much nicer and the soldiers could get some quality arse.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Westy said:
Is that the latest excuse? If so lets take out Cuba, the weather is much nicer and the soldiers could get some quality arse.
Cuba will take care of itself within the next 1-5 years.
 

I Are Baboon

Vagina man
Aug 6, 2001
32,820
11,006
MTB New England
Westy said:
Is that the latest excuse? If so lets take out Cuba, the weather is much nicer and the soldiers could get some quality arse.
Let's not forget China, North Korea, parts of Africa, Haiti, Pakistan....ehhh...I'm sure there are others.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BurlyShirley said:
You know what? Even if it was for oil, taking out Saddam and installing a democracy while we're at it would still make it worth it to me. Call me crazy.
Installing a democracy at the point of a gun...You've got to stop taking hits off the crack pipe when you're reading PNAC literature.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Silver said:
Installing a democracy at the point of a gun...You've got to stop taking hits off the crack pipe when you're reading PNAC literature.
Is there another way to install democracy?
 
Jul 28, 2003
657
0
Eat, ME
BurlyShirley said:
You know what? Even if it was for oil, taking out Saddam and installing a democracy while we're at it would still make it worth it to me. Call me crazy.
Oil is a collateral benefit, not the reason. Besides, why fuss about Europe if they no longer matter? It's my understanding that, of those who think the invasion was a good idea, Europe can go f themselves. So don't go getting your knickers in a twist.

The Cheese
 
C

Changleen.

Guest
Americka sux - and yoor a buncha warmongers. Patchoooli is kewl. no blood for OIL -no blood for OIL!!!
 

mr.terrible

Chimp
Aug 24, 2004
40
0
Finland
That was propably the weakest article ever. The main reasons behind going to Iraq or the WW's were just plain selfish and everyone who has the ability to think should realize that easily, the author clearly can't. War isn't noble. I havn't seen much democracy in Iraq, have you?
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,257
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
BurlyShirley said:
You know what? Even if it was for oil, taking out Saddam and installing a democracy while we're at it would still make it worth it to me. Call me crazy.

dude, read this slowly and repeat....


when you IMPOSE democracy, freedom, salvation or whatever upon somebody who didnt request it, ITS NO LONGER freedom.

its like having a southern baptist take over your house to convert you to jesus to save your soul.
i mean, there is a chance he might be right, and he might be absolutely convinced he is right, and might be acting in good faith. but that doesnt not give him right to step into my house and beat the crap out me and my kids telling me "you heaten pig, convert, i shall save your soul, be grateful!!!!".

no matter how perfect your idea of freedom and democracy is (which I share as well), the fact the its a western concept DOES NOT MAKE IT universal, and your selrighteouness about democracy (which in a true sense, the US DOES NOT even have).

in fact, you are killing the little they had left for the sake of a new "democratic" gvmt which everyone knows will be a servant gvmt formed by iraqui elites willing to capitalize the yields of "good relations" with the US while socializing the costs of this war, and the future trade of oil both monetary and strategically.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,908
2,871
Pōneke
ALEXIS_DH said:
dude, read this slowly and repeat....


when you IMPOSE democracy, freedom, salvation or whatever upon somebody who didnt request it, ITS NO LONGER freedom.

no matter how perfect your idea of freedom and democracy is (which I share as well), the fact the its a western concept DOES NOT MAKE IT universal, and your selrighteouness about democracy (which in a true sense, the US DOES NOT even have).

in fact, you are killing the little they had left for the sake of a new "democratic" gvmt which everyone knows will be a servant gvmt formed by iraqui elites willing to capitalize the yields of "good relations" with the US while socializing the costs of this war, and the future trade of oil both monetary and strategically.
:thumb:
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,908
2,871
Pōneke
mr.terrible said:
That was propably the weakest article ever. The main reasons behind going to Iraq or the WW's were just plain selfish and everyone who has the ability to think should realize that easily, the author clearly can't. War isn't noble. I havn't seen much democracy in Iraq, have you?
Luckily for you, you don't have Fox News. If you had the benefit of that great service, you too would see democracy was spreading like wildfire through the lands of the savages. Praise the lord jeebus!
 

mr.terrible

Chimp
Aug 24, 2004
40
0
Finland
Changleen said:
Luckily for you, you don't have Fox News. If you had the benefit of that great service, you too would see democracy was spreading like wildfire through the lands of the savages. Praise the lord jeebus!
Hey! don't be hating on Fox News... just kidding :D. It is clearly an advantage not to have Fox. I could get a satellite-tv and have a good laugh though.
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
First of all installing democracy is in no way like installing a religion. Democratic countries tend to all benefit by relatively higher GDP per capita and no terrorist groups. I don't think any religion has ever lead to an increase in real GDP.

Second, the value placed on a human life is arbitrary at best. I'm sure all of you value Osama's life at $0, but Osama may value his life highly. Therefore our only concrete value for a human life is GDP per capita.
In 2003 GDP per capitain Iraq was $1300. Now consider this, the average suicide bomber is offered a payment to his family upon his death/bombing. The bomber is valuing his act of terrorism and death at what his family will recieve versus what he could have provided to his family over his life time.

Now this may be stretching it, but one way to stop terrorism is to raise the GDP per capita of individuals. If you can alter their choice calculus in such away that terrorism is no longer the next best alternative, then we should see a decline in terrorism and in increase in productivity. Democracy is one way to do this, but it will take time.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,202
1,390
NC
ncrider said:
First of all installing democracy is in no way like installing a religion. Democratic countries tend to all benefit by relatively higher GDP per capita and no terrorist groups. I don't think any religion has ever lead to an increase in real GDP.
Woo frickin' hoo. I'm sure if you ask any religious person whether or not a country would benefit more from a higher GDP or finding Jesus, I can predict what their answer would be.

Just because GDP is a quantifiable statistic doesn't mean that forcing democracy on a country is justifiably better than forcing religion on the same country.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
I cannot see how one nationality's lives should be seen as worth more than any other. Wouldn't that simply be some attempt at rationalising racism?
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
binary visions said:
Just because GDP is a quantifiable statistic doesn't mean that forcing democracy on a country is justifiably better than forcing religion on the same country.
Really?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying lets start running around the world spreading democracy to all regions, like the Spaniards and Christianity. My point was finding a way to place a concrete value on a human life. From that point what is a way to raise that value. Generally countries with high GDP per capita do not partake in terrorism.
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
Before someon tries to play this card let me clarify first...
Yes measuring the value of a human life with GDP per capita is cold. We could easily just work 24/7 and GDP would skyrocket. In that sense GDP can not place a value on intrinsic items, such as leisure. However, it is not likely you will enjoy any leisure time if you are making only $3.50 a day.
 

jdcamb

Tool Time!
Feb 17, 2002
20,067
8,816
Nowhere Man!
N8 said:
Damn us for attemting to bring democracy to a people who have never known it... we sure do suck.


:evil:
Maybe.... Just maybe we could ask them what they want instead of assuming that what we have is what they want. What we are imposing on them by gunpoint and appointment is what we want for them. I know I might have a problem with that. How about you?
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
jdcamb said:
Maybe.... Just maybe we could ask them what they want instead of assuming that what we have is what they want. What we are imposing on them by gunpoint and appointment is what we want for them. I know I might have a problem with that. How about you?
Haha! You've fallen prey to one of the classic blunders! The first of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. The second, and only slightly less known, is never bother trying to discuss anything with N8 :p
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,403
22,487
Sleazattle
Echo said:
Haha! You've fallen prey to one of the classic blunders! The first of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. The second, and only slightly less known, is never bother trying to discuss anything with N8 :p
Thirdly never go against a sicilian when death is on the line.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
ALEXIS_DH said:
dude, read this slowly and repeat....


when you IMPOSE democracy, freedom, salvation or whatever upon somebody who didnt request it, ITS NO LONGER freedom.
My point was that even if its forced upon them to vote their own leaders (what a horrible concept that is) its still better than Saddam.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who got back from Iraq recently. He was telling me about one of saddam's sons palaces and how they had to have these guys come in to remove lions from these cages within the complex. The lions were there, and lining the floor of the pens were human bones. Apparently those sick ****ers were feeding live humans to lions as a form of entertainment.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Here (newscientist.com - well known UK publication) is an interesting article about the methods used to estimate Iraqi civilian deaths.

These same American and Iraqi scientists estimate that due to our invasion of Iraq over 100,000 more Iraqis have died than would have if we left Saddam in power. Our imposed freedom efforts have taken many more Iraqi lives than a brutal dictator would have in the same time...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
syadasti said:
Here (newscientist.com - well known UK publication) is an interesting article about the methods used to estimate Iraqi Civilian deaths.

These same American and Iraqi estimate that due to our invasion of Iraq 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died than would have if we left Saddam in power. Our imposed freedom efforts have taken many more Iraqi lives than a brutal dictator would have in the same time...
So Saddam wasn't killing at a high enough rate for us to be happy with him? We should have armed him better in the 80's...
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Another from the BBC.

Iraq death toll 'soared post-war'

Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a "climate of violence" have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim
...
Dr Les Roberts, who led the study, said: "Making conservative assumptions we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more, have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

"Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most of the violent deaths."
 

jdcamb

Tool Time!
Feb 17, 2002
20,067
8,816
Nowhere Man!
Echo said:
Haha! You've fallen prey to one of the classic blunders! The first of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. The second, and only slightly less known, is never bother trying to discuss anything with N8 :p

I am well aware that N8 never answers a question or that I can discuss anything with him on any level. Gave up on that a long time ago.....
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
jdcamb said:
I am well aware that N8 never answers a question or that I can discuss anything with him on any level. Gave up on that a long time ago.....
N8 is the reason this Political Forum is such a worthless mess. His stupid cut-and-paste propoganda spam has everyone so pissed off and polarized all the time, it's impossible to discuss anything.