[$tinkle]

So the definition of human depends on the current state of medical technology?

By that reasoning, abortions in third world countries don't count as killing a human, and ones in first world countries do.

the definition would transcend geo-political borders.

if only such were also true of genocide, eh? maybe then the sudan would get help all the sooner to prevent the continuance of the ethnic [read: chrisitian] cleansing.

oh, was i supposed to stay on topic?

 

[llkoolkeg]

So the definition of human depends on the current state of medical technology?

By that reasoning, abortions in third world countries don't count as killing a human, and ones in first world countries do.

No. The definition of a human depends upon a fertilized egg implanting and cell division and growth proceeding unless acted upon by an unnatrual external force...kinda like that fetus-sucking shop vac or the chop-shop "extraction" tools. The definition you speak of is only the most basic and minimal one relevant to a particular population. But for a scant few exceptions, abortion is wrong wherever it takes place. If the child's life can be spared, however, it should be spared. I would say it's fairly obvious and not particularly relevant to the scope of this debate that the ability of local hospitals to save the lives of children varies greatly.

 

[Silver]

the definition would transcend geo-political borders.

if only such were also true of genocide, eh? maybe then the sudan would get help all the sooner to prevent the continuance of the ethnic [read: chrisitian] cleansing.

oh, was i supposed to stay on topic?

You're willing to pay for health care in third world countries then? I think we may have a breakthrough here...

 

[Silver]

No. The definition of a human depends upon a fertilized egg implanting and cell division and growth proceeding unless acted upon by an unnatrual external force...

Serious question here: Would you consider a zombie human?

(Zombie in the philosophical sense, not the horror movie sense. I'm talking about a being that is functionally like us, but absent conscious experience.)

 

[$tinkle]

You're willing to pay for health care in third world countries then? I think we may have a breakthrough here...

you mean more health care? not sure if you're talking about abortion in general or genocide :wretchedly_confused:

 

[$tinkle]

Serious question here: Would you consider a zombie human?

(Zombie in the philosophical sense, not the horror movie sense. I'm talking about a being that is functionally like us, but absent conscious experience.)

burly would most likely hit it

 

[llkoolkeg]

Serious question here: Would you consider a zombie human?

(Zombie in the philosophical sense, not the horror movie sense. I'm talking about a being that is functionally like us, but absent conscious experience.)

That would depend upon what his genus and species are.

 

[Silver]

That would depend upon what his genus and species are.

He'd be human, wouldn't he? All he's missing is conscious experiences.

You think that taxonomy defines our existence?

 

[llkoolkeg]

He'd be human, wouldn't he? All he's missing is conscious experiences.

You think that taxonomy defines our existence?

No; just being a wiseass and assisting you in steering the debate onto an offramp and away from abortion.

 

[Silver]

No; just being a wiseass and assisting you in steering the debate onto an offramp and away from abortion.

I'm not trying to move the debate away. I'm trying to get you to justify your statement made earlier to mack. You're not doing very well.

 

[llkoolkeg]

I'm not trying to move the debate away. I'm trying to get you to justify your statement made earlier to mack. You're not doing very well(in my personal estimation).

Which one? The one about werewolves or the one about vampires?

Speaking of Mack,

Mack- can you PLEASE correct the spelling of 'definition' in the thread title? It's driving me nuts every time I click it!

 

[Toshi]

BTW, have you seen the latest 3-D intrauterine imaging technologies? Perhaps prospective abortion "patients" should have 15 minutes alone in a room with the new sonograms hooked up and going real-time before the procedure can go forth. A brief meet-&-greet, if you will, between a baby and his mother before final consent for the procedure is collected.

no, but i have seen photos of and actual fetuses from just about every stage of development. i think it was tulane that had a particularly grisly museum of embryos and fetuses...

 

[Silver]

Which one? The one about werewolves or the one about vampires?

Speaking of Mack,

Mack- can you PLEASE correct the spelling of 'definition' in the thread title? It's driving me nuts every time I click it!

Why do you feel the need to doctor quotes? ****, I hate that.

 

[llkoolkeg]

no, but i have seen photos of and actual fetuses from just about every stage of development. i think it was tulane that had a particularly grisly museum of embryos and fetuses...

I have noticed amongst members of the medical community a pervasive cold detachment from both the living and the divine. I have always concluded that it is a self-defense mechanism to protect their fragile IDs from the harsh realities of an exceedingly complex world that cannot always be boiled down to a quantifiable phenomenon or mathematical formula.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Why do you feel the need to doctor quotes? ****, I hate that.

Just being lazy. Sorry. That's why I put it in parentheses.

 

[Toshi]

I have noticed amongst members of the medical community a pervasive cold detachment from both the living and the divine. I have always concluded that it is a self-defense mechanism to protect their fragile IDs from the harsh realities of an exceedingly complex world that cannot always be boiled down to a quantifiable phenomenon or mathematical formula.

funny you mention that. i probably am that way just by my nature, but the majority of my class is extremely touchy-feely, i-love-babies-and-kittens!, and dedicated to primary care. furthermore, they seem to hate physics (while i love it), just to pick one example from the curriculum.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

no, but i have seen photos of and actual fetuses from just about every stage of development. i think it was tulane that had a particularly grisly museum of embryos and fetuses...

i have seen those!!, when i was like 14 i went to a med school and saw hundreds of jelly jars with fetuses inside from all kinds, shapes, malformations and ages, and in third world stardards of maintenance.. waaaaaaay more visceral than watchng faces of death, or paramedics....

so, for all those who say human life depends on consciousness... what about temporal unconsciousness??

like if you pass out, or in a temporal comma, or knocked out cold by a punch in the head, or under deep trance in hypnosis.... do you give up your human-dom then??? is the killing of a temporarily unconscious being a murder??? isnt a fetus in the fist months a temporarily unconscious being??

 

[Silver]

Temporary unconsciousness is a bit different from potential consciousness.

That reminds me...I still need to type up a living will. Damn, I keep putting that off.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Temporary unconsciousness is a bit different from potential consciousness.

That reminds me...I still need to type up a living will. Damn, I keep putting that off.

care to explain what are the main points of the difference??? and how it applies to the unborn??

dont most "unconscious" fetus in the 3rd trimester actually get to go into the "conscious" 2nd trimester???

 

[Silver]

I think you meant 1st to 2nd.

And the answer is no. With the stats I've seen (and maybe Toshi can help out here) up to half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I think you meant 1st to 2nd.

And the answer is no. With the stats I've seen (and maybe Toshi can help out here) up to half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion.

depends again where you draw the line of a pregnancy. if you say pregnancy starts with the fertilized egg, then yes, most pregnancies end before the the 9th month.
if you think pregnancy starts with implantation, then the % of failed pregnancies decreases a lot.

but, well, lets say it a 50-50 chance of a 1st trimester fetus surviving into the 2nd....

for the sake of the argument, lets make up the situation in which 50% of the people in temporary unconsicousness get to survive ... would it be ok to kill them then??? (and by kill i mean purposely interrumpting their lifes, not just "not helping" only).

 

[$tinkle]

With the stats I've seen (and maybe Toshi can help out here) up to half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion.

i'd like some clarity on that too, along w/ "mortality" or "success" rates among the implanted by sex. (i've heard that although "male" sperm are better swimmers, they are less likely to hang on to the uteran wall)

isn't spontaneous abortion "miscarriage"? probably a toe-MAH-toe/toe-MAH-toe thing.

 

[Silver]

depends again where you draw the line of a pregnancy. if you say pregnancy starts with the fertilized egg, then yes, most pregnancies end before the the 9th month.
if you think pregnancy starts with implantation, then the % of failed pregnancies decreases a lot.

but, well, lets say it a 50-50 chance of a 1st trimester fetus surviving into the 2nd....

for the sake of the argument, lets make up the situation in which 50% of the people in temporary unconsicousness get to survive ... would it be ok to kill them then??? (and by kill i mean purposely interrumpting their lifes, not just "not helping" only).

Do I have to tote the unconscious guy around for 9 months to see? neaky:

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Do I have to tote the unconscious guy around for 9 months to see? neaky:

would that be relevant to the strict definition of murder???

 

[Silver]

would that be relevant to the strict definition of murder???

We need a woman to chime in on this, since we've been ignoring that there are two entities involved here...

Where is Jr_Bullit? neaky:

So, no, not relevant to that, but relevant to the abortion debate.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

We need a woman to chime in on this, since we've been ignoring that there are two entities involved here...

Where is Jr_Bullit? neaky:

So, no, not relevant to that, but relevant to the abortion debate.

isnt the abortion debate basically on whether an abortion if a murder or not??

 

[Silver]

isnt the abortion debate whether an abortion if a murder or not??

We murder fully formed humans all the time. The question is how should we treat potential ones.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

We murder fully formed humans all the time. The question is how should we treat potential ones.

if you start by the premise that a fetus is no more than a "potential human", then you have pretty much closed your argument already.

i think the abortion debate is about whether a fetus is a human or not, thus whether killing it is a murder or not.

we are discussing when does human life starts with the whole conscious argument. said argument is not about when "potential human" life starts.

potential is too vague... sperm is a potential human.. same with any cell now that we have cloning available....

 

[$tinkle]

consider the bunker twins

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

consider the bunker twins

i´ve thought about that... if abortion is ok, then a siamese twin should have the right to kill its unconscious siamese, or to chop it for parts, or to do whatever she/he wants with she/he??....

would it be ok to pluck the arm off a 1st trimester fetus, while its unconscious, or torture it, and then letting it grow into birth??? all as part "of the rights of a woman over her body"?? would that be no different than said woman tatooing or piercing herself.

 

[Silver]

i´ve thought about that... if abortion is ok, then a siamese twin should have the right to kill its unconscious siamese, or to chop it for parts, or to do whatever she/he wants with she/he??....

In many of those operations that you see publicized to sepearate siamese twins, one of them is at much greater risk than the other.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/913083.stm

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

In many of those operations that you see publicized to sepearate siamese twins, one of them is at much greater risk than the other.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/913083.stm

but that doesnt mean they are purposely killing one that would otherwise stay alive for a while.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

well, again if anyone wants to answer.

would it be ok to pluck the arm off a 1st trimester fetus, while its unconscious, or torture it, and then letting it grow into birth??? all as part "of the rights of a woman over her body"?? would that be no different than said woman tatooing or piercing herself.

does a life starts with pregnancy???

 

[$tinkle]

from the beeb article

"She is unnaturally hooked onto her sister, draining her sister's life and, in the end, is going to kill her sister.

should she then have been charged w/ murder (as a juvenile, obviously)?

interesting to see how jodie & her family is doing these days

 

[Silver]

well, again if anyone wants to answer.

would it be ok to pluck the arm off a 1st trimester fetus, while its unconscious, or torture it, and then letting it grow into birth??? all as part "of the rights of a woman over her body"?? would that be no different than said woman tatooing or piercing herself.

does a life starts with pregnancy???

Ok in what sense?

I don't think cruelty to animals is ok either, but there is a difference between running over a dog for fun and running over a kid in a crosswalk for fun.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Ok in what sense?

I don't think cruelty to animals is ok either, but there is a difference between running over a dog for fun and running over a kid in a crosswalk for fun.

but.. would it be it self-cruelty?? or is it cruelty to another human being??

 

[llkoolkeg]

I have been quietly viewing this from time-to-time and must say that I am pleasantly surprised with Alexis' arguments. Normally, I'm too busy arguing with him about the U.S. South to notice that he might have something of value to contribute!

 

[Silver]

but.. would it be it self-cruelty?? or is it cruelty to another human being??

It's not self-cruelty. I'm not arguing that the fetus isn't another entity. I'm arguing that it's missing (for the first 6 months if you want to be safe, but probably longer than that) the very thing that makes a human special.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

It's not self-cruelty. I'm not arguing that the fetus isn't another entity. I'm arguing that it's missing (for the first 6 months if you want to be safe, but probably longer than that) the very thing that makes a human special.

and people knocked out cold, or people doped into unconsciousness, or deeply autistic people also lacking temporarily the very thing that makes a human special????

why is ok to interrupt the life of one, and not the other one???

how does temporarily differs from potential in this context???

what about the deeply autistic?? those with no chance at all of gaining consciousness and self awareness at all???

 

[Silver]

and people knocked out cold, or people doped into unconsciousness, or deeply autistic people also lacking temporarily the very thing that makes a human special????

why is ok to interrupt the life of one, and not the other one???

how does temporarily differs from potential in this context???

what about the deeply autistic?? those with no chance at all of gaining consciousness and self awareness at all???

All of those examples have brain function. A first trimester fetus doesn't. Toshi could chime in here as well...

(I'm not speaking strictly of brain waves, either. My dog has those too. I'm talking about higher level functioning.)