[$tinkle]

considering:
- much larger & far more remote & mountainous than iraq
- increasingly harder to get supplies in
- a heavily fractured country with little-to-no law enforcement outside the urban areas
- we be broke
- pentagon re-evaluating sending 10's of thousands more troops
- it's a nato effort, but symetric troops representation isn't - and won't be - attained ("coalition of the willing" sound familiar?)
- now be re-labeled as the primary front on islamic extremism against western interests

i think we had the stomach for what it takes to regain the region right after 9/11 (even if we didn't know what it would take), but when you crunch the numbers, this seems to me like a truly long war with a very high political, financial, and human cost. generations long maybe. a buddy of mine just got back from yet another - and final - tour of iraq and is quite cynical about it all, mostly due to the cultural gulf is seemingly unbridgeable.

related reading at stratfor

 

[Samirol]

What should it be? Immediate pull out.

What will it be? Vietnam. The terrain is pretty much impossible to control, even when the Taliban was in power, they didn't have full control over the country.

It wasn't justifiable to invade in the first place, and this is exactly what Bin Laden wanted; a long, drawn-out war in a Muslim country in the Middle East so we can be bled dry.

 

[$tinkle]

osama bin who?

of course the main problem now is how do you deny such a vast region for planning, strategizing & launching against western interests?

 

[Samirol]

osama bin who?

of course the main problem now is how do you deny such a vast region for planning, strategizing & launching against western interests?

In the sense of dismantling Al-Qaeda, do it through international police action. If you want to remove a gang from a ghetto, you don't have tanks rolling down the street, you use police action and investigation to take out leaders, key players, etc.

 

[$tinkle]

this approach has been rather effective in the phillipines, pakistan, and saudi arabia. they are also nations whose reach is recognized, far, and effective within their borders.

there is no such application in the tribal regions. maybe this can be developed. maybe that's what one of our key goals is & i just don't know it.

 

[$tinkle]

not good: Afghan people 'losing confidence'

People in Afghanistan have far less confidence in the direction their country is taking than four years ago, a new BBC/ABC opinion poll suggests.

The approval rating for the central government in Kabul is still high - but is steadily falling.

Support for the presence of foreign troops is also strong but declining, compared with previous polls.

But the public is still very much opposed to the Taleban, seeing them as the country's biggest threat.

Most do not want to see the militants return.

'most'?

 

[valve bouncer]

'most'?

Say what you like about the Taliban mate, at least they had the trains running on time.

 

[Samirol]

not good: Afghan people 'losing confidence''most'?

Their brand of traditionalism was very unpopular before the war, and still is, but in southern Afghanistan, their anti-US efforts are liked by some.

 

[$tinkle]

i don't know why i keep expressing disappointment that the widely held opinion of infidels is less than glowing. i'm reminded that they also viewed russians as "christian", and so contempt for us should follow.

 

[Samirol]

i don't know why i keep expressing disappointment that the widely held opinion of infidels is less than glowing. i'm reminded that they also viewed russians as "christian", and so contempt for us should follow.

Or it could be the fact that we invaded their country and support tribal leaders that are just as repressive

 

[dan-o]

Say what you like about the Taliban mate, at least they had the heads rolling on time.

Fixed. NTTAWWT.

 

[valve bouncer]

Fixed. NTTAWWT.

Shouldn't it be the "walls toppling"? That was their go as I recall. Push a wall over on ya, that'll ruin ya day in no uncertain terms.

A bloody wall no less!

 

[Defenestrated]

Obama's plan for Afghanistan should be to leave Afghanistan. We came to fight a group of idealists with violent designs and we failed miserably. It's clear that our militarism has not destroyed this idealism, but rather enabled it to spread, leaving us not only with blood on our hands, but more hated and vulnerable than ever before.

 

[$tinkle]

so w/o our involvement in afghanistan, do you still think both the taliban & al-q would be in a stalemate w/ us as they are now?

 

[Silver]

gtfo asap

 

[$tinkle]

if we pull out i'm gonna go ahead & buy that rocky mtn flatline 3 i test rode last week. as much as i'd like it, it would make as much sense & be every bit as selfish

 

[ohio]

if we pull out i'm gonna go ahead & buy that rocky mtn flatline 3 i test rode last week. as much as i'd like it, it would make as much sense & be every bit as selfish

Really? You liked the Flatline? I hated the several different ones I rented in Whistler. Total boat with bad suspension action, poorly thought out frame design (tire bottomed on seat on every model, even at tall seat heights), and it weighed a ton. I'd say pick another DH frame. Any other frame.

I ended up using the slopestyle for the week which was a much better bike even in the rough and even with 30% less travel and steeper angles.

 

[Defenestrated]

Stalemate? How can you possibly evaluate a war which has no front, no theater, no personified enemy, no end, and no beginning?

 

[ohio]

as much as i'd like it, it would make as much sense & be every bit as selfish

A position which would have us in Iraq and Afghanistan AND Vietnam for an infinite future in unwinnable wars.

Was it selfish to pull out of Vietnam? Why don't we ask the Vietnamese of today which was more selfish: getting in, or pulling out?

 

[Defenestrated]

In my opinion nothing is more selfish than spending enormous amounts of tax dollars on weaponry instead of on social programs and humanitarian aid.

 

[$tinkle]

Really? You liked the Flatline? I hated the several different ones I rented in Whistler. Total boat with bad suspension action, poorly thought out frame design (tire bottomed on seat on every model, even at tall seat heights), and it weighed a ton. I'd say pick another DH frame. Any other frame.

I ended up using the slopestyle for the week which was a much better bike even in the rough and even with 30% less travel and steeper angles.

- i ride an '01 bullit w/ an '02 super-T, so it's hard to hate (still love the sc as my all-mtn)
- i've only seen the slopestyle online; it too looks tempting except for the steeper angles

Was it selfish to pull out of Vietnam? Why don't we ask the Vietnamese of today which was more selfish: getting in, or pulling out?

i'd rather ask the ghosts of pol pot's victims for a more accurate response

In my opinion nothing is more selfish than spending enormous amounts of tax dollars on weaponry instead of on social programs and humanitarian aid.

if you don't assault a culture (a kind of foreign policy social program), then how can you render (humanitarian) aid?

see what we did there?

 

[$tinkle]

i'm sure obama is mulling over this question: "How Much is Afghanistan Really Worth to Us?"

While we prepare to shunt perhaps 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan (which still will not be enough), Russia continues to play the Asian chessboard. The Russians are picking off pawn after pawn, and steadily eroding our foreign policy influence with them and other Central Asian countries. The Russians know that we need a land route through their country to Afghanistan, especially as we begin the slow process of increasing our combat presence. The Pakistan land route is one Achilles' heel to our Afghanistan effort, and Russia is working hard to make sure that Russia is the other Achilles' heel, which will strengthen the Russian position on matters such as missile defense. Russia, at the present rate, will eventually exercise considerable control over the spigot to Afghanistan. The Russians are successfully wrestling us into a policy arm-lock. While Russia takes American money and gains influence over our Afghan efforts, we will continue to spend lives and tens of billions of dollars per year on Afghanistan in an attempt to civilize what amounts to Jurassic Park.

We must start asking Russia, and others, who the true losers will be if we abandon Afghanistan and leave a resurgent Taliban to lap at their doorsteps. I am not advocating that we abandon Afghanistan, but our own population and allies might grow weary during the long journey unfolding before us. The direct threat to us derives far more from al Qaeda than the Taliban, and we can keep punching down al Qaeda for a lot less than it's costing to prosecute the Afghan war while abdicating significant influence to Russia. Russia has much to worry about if NATO countries begin to abandon Afghanistan.

and on & on it continues for a few more paras

 

[Defenestrated]

i'd rather ask the ghosts of pol pot's victims for a more accurate response

We didn't fight the Vietnam War against Pol Pot... (leader of the Cambodian Communist movement)

We fought the Vietnam War because the American people were scared into believing that the domino theory was true.

 

[$tinkle]

We didn't fight the Vietnam War against Pol Pot... (leader of the Cambodian Communist movement)

connect them to see what one has to do w/ the other

 

[Defenestrated]

Pol Pot murdered ~ 2,000,000 Cambodians between 1975 and 1979

The Vietnam War was fought initally to perpetuate French colonialism and later under the pretense of the Domino Theory which has since proven false.

Some approximate figures off wiki

South Vietnamese civilian dead: 1,581,000
Cambodian civilian dead: ~700,000
North Vietnamese civilian dead: ~3,000,000
Laotian civilian dead: ~50,000

Communist Vietnam was no friend of Cambodia under Pol Pot (really the first indication of flaws in the Domino Theory), and as you may (hopefully) know Cambodia was invaded and occupied by the forces of Communist Vietnam during the mid to late 70s which forced Pol Pot to flee.

Connect my dots. How was U.S. military action Vietnam at all effective in preventing the genocide of the Cambodian people, and how do you justify the loss of life and atrocities which the Vietnam War facilitated?

 

[$tinkle]

Connect my dots. How was U.S. military action Vietnam at all effective in preventing the genocide of the Cambodian people, and how do you justify the loss of life and atrocities which the Vietnam War facilitated?

see now we're getting to my point: the manner in which we ended the vietnam conflict was on our terms, and to the cost of many lives we (apparently) had little interest in. especially when that non-overlapping interest came at the cost of american lives. if there's one lesson to be learned today, it is "you break it - you own it"

it's simple bookkeeping.

 

[Defenestrated]

If the United States actually cared about the Cambodian people it would have ended the genocide. Clearly the United States was more concerned with propping up the South Vietnamese puppet government headed by Ngo Dinh Diem, which was a shameful excuse for a democracy in the first place. The man was a member of the Vietnamese elite whom had been powerful during the French colonial days, this is the reason why the Viet Cong came into existence. The common people were not represented by Diem, perhaps if the United States had not supported his regime and instead championed real democracy in South Vietnam the people would have chosen a suitable leader and Communism would have lost its appeal.

Food for thought.

 

[jimmydean]

Awesome:

MOSCOW – Twenty years after Red Army troops pulled out of Afghanistan, the last general to command them says the Soviets' devastating experience is a dismal omen for U.S. plans to build up troops there.

On Friday, the anniversary of the Soviet departure from the Afghan capital, the Russian parliament's lower house adopted a resolution honoring the soldiers who "were faithful to the warrior's duty, who displayed heroism, bravery and patriotism."

In retired Gen. Boris Gromov's view, the valor was shown in an unwinnable battle.

"Afghanistan taught us an invaluable lesson ... It has been and always will be impossible to solve political problems using force," said Gromov, the last soldier to leave Afghanistan two days after the Kabul pullout.

He told reporters that U.S. plans to send thousands of new troops to Afghanistan would make no difference against a resurgent Taliban, who came to power in 1996 in the chaos after the Soviet withdrawal.

"One can increase the forces or not — it won't lead to anything but a negative result," Gromov said.

 

[Defenestrated]

I hope there is a draft, he wouldn't get away with this if there were a draft. It's amazing how a society can become disconnected from the realities of war when it isn't being forced to fight.

 

[$tinkle]

Obama orders 17,000 US troops to Afghanistan

WASHINGTON, Feb 17 (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama, in his first major military decision, has ordered 17,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan to tackle worsening insurgent violence, the White House said on Tuesday.

"This increase is necessary to stabilize a deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, which has not received the strategic attention, direction and resources it urgently requires," Obama said in a written statement.

As a presidential candidate, Obama promised to focus more attention on the war in Afghanistan, where violence has risen dramatically in the past two years as Taliban militants and other insurgents have gained strength.

"The decision was communicated to the Pentagon yesterday. The orders were signed today," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told reporters traveling with Obama in Denver.

The 17,000 troops include an Army brigade equipped with Stryker armored vehicles, a Marine expeditionary brigade and support personnel, officials said.

The forces are part of an anticipated U.S. troop build-up that could expand the U.S. military presence in Afghanistan to 60,000 troops, from a current 38,000, in coming months.

obamica! fck yeah!

 

[Defenestrated]

How many brown people do we have to bomb to death before realizing that we always end up where we started, just with budget deficit....

Sh!t.

 

[DaveW]

Stalemate? How can you possibly evaluate a war which has no front, no theater, no personified enemy, no end, and no beginning?

We are at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eurasia.


Except for Valve bouncer, he's always been at war with Uranus......

 

[valve bouncer]

I watched Ross Kemp's Return to Afghanistan Part 3 the other day and even allowing for the fact that Ross Kemp is a wee bit of a wanker-cum-drama queen it was quite an interesting insight into the nature of the war there. Recommended.

 

[stevew]

stand on a aircraft carrier with a "mission accomplished" banner behind him.

strut around in a flight suit....

 

[$tinkle]

like the press wouldn't get the vapors w/ his bits & pieces all bunched up.

someone hold my hair...i'm going to barf

 

[manimal]

What should it be? Immediate pull out.

What will it be? Vietnam. The terrain is pretty much impossible to control, even when the Taliban was in power, they didn't have full control over the country.

It wasn't justifiable to invade in the first place, and this is exactly what Bin Laden wanted; a long, drawn-out war in a Muslim country in the Middle East so we can be bled dry.

i see one solution:

parking lot.

 

[ohio]

i see one solution:

parking lot.

Oh man, when is genocide NOT funny!?!

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Oh man, when is genocide NOT funny!?!

When it involves whitey bein' genocided. That's when.

 

[$tinkle]

9/11


yep, still funny

 

[MMike]

9/11 was pretty zany......