[mack]

ok, i dont see why the orange .223 is such a good race bike? ive riden one and i can say the bb7 is much better, it looks like a copy of the trek diesel, except cheaper built.

so could some 1 tell me why this bike is a craze to so many people?

to me orange .223~trek diesel...

 

[Fulton]

light and stiff, and a decent pedaler.

Oh, and calling it a diesel........uuuhhh, well, there's ALOT of differences.

 

[Inclag]

I think in some cases, a bike that is simpler and lighter like a Orange will help out a rider that is already fast. I know at the level I'm at, a bike like an Orange would probably make me slower than I already am. On the other hand, I were very fast, the lighter weight and stiffness might be a better tradeoff to make me faster than say a certain type of linkage or different geometry.

 

[Jm_]

Originally posted by Inclag
I think in some cases, a bike that is simpler and lighter like a Orange will help out a rider that is already fast. I know at the level I'm at, a bike like an Orange would probably make me slower than I already am. On the other hand, I were very fast, the lighter weight and stiffness might be a better tradeoff to make me faster than say a certain type of linkage or different geometry.

I agree with this assesment. I still would choose to ride a linkage-type bike for racing, however the difference between the orange, and a linkage-racing bike is extremely small when you are talking about a pro racer, and the weight is going to have a pretty big impact. I don't know if anyone has weighed those 223s, but their patriots are not nearly as light as I thought, patriot xcell is 8+lbs, the "sub 5" is 7+lbs. http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=fullsuspensionframes

 

[arcteryx33]

They're Junk. After going through three of em, and waiting forever for warrenty issues to be resolved I couldnt sell it fast enough. Mine were all 222's but maybe the quality has gotten better with the 223. Im sure all the "sponsered" riders will chime in and disagree.

 

[narlus]

take a closer look @ the orange, i think the "cheaper built" remark is pretty far off the mark. the down tube and swingarm are very nicely turned out pieces of metal forming.

i've only ridden my wife's a few times, and i wasn't sold on the feel of the suspension but that was also likely due to relative ignorance of the 5th element. that said, the bike is really light, and just *feels* fast. it's hard to explain, really. it feels like it skips over stuff instead of wallowing in travel, even though it's an 8" travel bike.

 

[Inclag]

Originally posted by Jm_
I agree with this assesment. I still would choose to ride a linkage-type bike for racing, however the difference between the orange, and a linkage-racing bike is extremely small when you are talking about a pro racer, and the weight is going to have a pretty big impact. I don't know if anyone has weighed those 223s, but their patriots are not nearly as light as I thought, patriot xcell is 8+lbs, the "sub 5" is 7+lbs. http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=fullsuspensionframes

I'm sure another thing is marketing as well. The Orange is starting to remind me of the old M1 where you would see and hear about them everywhere and alot of fast riders were using them. In anycase they are still great bikes, but not the end-all-be-all like a rootbeer colored Bullit.

 

[erikkellison]

I have been wondering the same thing.
I was comparing the .223 side by side to the Bullit, and I noticed that both are single pivot, with the pivot in the same place, and the shock mounting in the same place as well. So why not save a grand and buy the SC?

 

[Orvan]

I think it's a pretty frame.. I almost thought of getting one two yrs ago before Nicolai cam on board but when I looked at the pricelist, I was like "for that thing?" The rest is history!

I like the lightweight aspect of it but it stops there..

 

[spookydave]

I agree with this question. What's so great?
I'm not knocking them at all as they look to be very close in pivot locaton to my Bullit and FTW Project X.
I liked that statment I read about they have the stiffest swingarm (or it was something like that) and bearing design. lol, you should take a peek at the swing arm and 1 1/8" bearings on my X.

I think they look like nice bikes though. Just not anything ground breaking.

 

[Joe]

Its matter of opinion if you dont like them. But half of you have never ridden one, so how are you making those remarks? Try one, you might think they are actually rather good.

My friend had a bullit, it felt no where near as stable as my 222, didnt like it much.

So there i said it, quit whining if you have no reason too.

BTW trek diesal looks like a 222. what came first? The 222.

 

[neversummersnow]

First off the Trek Desiel has that sorta cool pully that keeps the chain pointed at the pivot keeping it active under pedaling (exept they'd really need two pullies to do this properly.)

The Orange IS a good race bike, it's something you'de have to ride and see. It may not even feel as fast until you actually time yourself down a course. Obviously, it's going to be better for those that ride "light" and like to pick their lines more precisly (although this doesn't always have to be the case)

Their geometry and rear end/pivot design seperates it from the bullit by a LOT, although your average intro level racer may not appreciate the advantages of the Orange. (low bb, slacker headtube, stiff rear end etc)

It really all ends up in the details.

 

[erikkellison]

Originally posted by Joe
Its matter of opinion if you dont like them. But half of you have never ridden one, so how are you making those remarks? Try one, you might think they are actually rather good.
My friend had a bullit, it felt no where near as stable as my 222, didnt like it much.

I have a bullit on the way, and I am curious as to what you mean by stable. Is the pivot loose-feeling or something? I know that the shock position is more adjustable on the 223, and it gets more travel, so maybe I should be comparing to the Patriot 7+. As far as I'm aware, the Bullit and the Patriot 7+ weigh about the same (slightly over 9) w/ 5th's on each. So, is it all in the pivot? If the shock is the same, mounted in the same way to the same type of swingarm (well, as far as mounting holes are concerned), with the same pivot location, it has to be either weight or lateral stiffness. And I would think that on a Bullit, the lateral stiffness is really good considering so many people beat on them for so long, and you don't hear about broken pivots all that often. So I am back to my confused state. And no, I've never ridden an Orange of any kind for the reason. I haven't even ridden my Bullit yet.

 

[neversummersnow]

Versus something with a 12mm through axle, the rear end does feel to wander or flex in a lot of circumstances.

HOWEVER, the bullit is not meant to be a full fledged race bike even though it does do allright as one. The flex is usually only felt when pushing hard and the rear end only wanders at high speed and whatnot.

Strength and flex=two different things.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by neversummersnow
First off the Trek Desiel has that sorta cool pully that keeps the chain pointed at the pivot keeping it active under pedaling (exept they'd really need two pullies to do this properly.)

The Orange IS a good race bike, it's something you'de have to ride and see. It may not even feel as fast until you actually time yourself down a course. Obviously, it's going to be better for those that ride "light" and like to pick their lines more precisly (although this doesn't always have to be the case)

Their geometry and rear end/pivot design seperates it from the bullit by a LOT, although your average intro level racer may not appreciate the advantages of the Orange. (low bb, slacker headtube, stiff rear end etc)

It really all ends up in the details.

That as well as the fact that it is the most popular privateer bike on the planet due to it's low maintenance/high dependability.

It rides completely differently then a trek diesel, due to pivot placement and no pulleys. On a side note, the orange was around FAR earlier then the trek diesel, so if anything, the diesel is the "copy".

The workmanship in the orange is far beyond any bike I have ever ridden, besides maybe the foes mono, which is like fine art.

As for it being flexy or breakable....Peaty hasn't had any issues, in fact andy K takes a drill/hacksaw to his bike to make it even lighter and it still hasnt exploded...2mm off the BB shell, speedholes everywhere etc.

If you are alreasdy adept at picking lines and are a good pedaler, the orange WILL make you faster.

As for the durability issues, the 2001 models had some shock weld issues. In fact, my personal race bikes lasted 2 seasons before it saw a hairline fracture in the center shock mount weld..keep in midn this is a year past warranty..and they still replaced it no questions asked.

 

[SinatorJ]

Because they spent alot of money on talent. Who does not want a bike that won 2 world cup overal titles. Monkey see... Monkey do.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by SinatorJ
Because they spent alot of money on talent. Who does not want a bike that won 2 world cup overal titles. Monkey see... Monkey do.

apparently you have never ridden the bike.

 

[SinatorJ]

I have ridden one and if you just race at Big bear, they are great. Go to a really rough course like Idaho or even Durango they are not as effective as a linkage bike.
Orange spent alot of money in sponsoring the global team, and probably even more on Steve Peat. This is the best form of marketing in the world of DH. Who wouldn't want to ride a world Champion's bike. If you look at their sales since the inception of the global team I bet the you would see that the more races won by a global racer, the more bikes Orange sold.
It is a good bike, I just feel that there are better designs out there.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by SinatorJ
I have ridden one and if you just race at Big bear, they are great. Go to a really rough course like Idaho or even Durango they are not as effective as a linkage bike.
Orange spent alot of money in sponsoring the global team, and probably even more on Steve Peat. This is the best form of marketing in the world of DH. Who wouldn't want to ride a world Champion's bike. If you look at their sales since the inception of the global team I bet the you would see that the more races won by a global racer, the more bikes Orange sold.
It is a good bike, I just feel that there are better designs out there.

As a matter of fact it works great on rough courses. Superbly well. I have raced one for 3 seasons now. Including snow, west virginia, plattekill, bromont, ste anne, durango...

Pretty much the fastest and roughest courses you can get. Peaty CHOSE that bike, not the other way around (and yes now they pay him bucketloads of cash).

The fact is, the pivot is in a near perfect location(unlike say, a super 8) and the bike rides astoundingly well, is as stiff as they come and rides like it is on rails.

So if by better, you mean mroe complicated designs that require more maintenance, then yes.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Acadian
not that it really matters...

but my sources tell me that Orange bikes are now made in T-wand!

I've never ridden one, so I can't comment on how it rides.

The lower end stuff has always been made overseason in Taiwan. The MsIsle and 223 are still handmade in Halifax, England.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Acadian
you sure about that?

According to what they told me, and the sticker on it, yes.

Everything else is indeed made in taiwan, and has the stickers to prove it.

 

[SinatorJ]

...and I suppose the fact that Orange3 is based in Engand had nothing to do with Peaty's decision. Don't you think that it makes for a great partnership to race a bike made in your own country. Let's face it, The UK is not the cutting edge og bike design. What a better way to promote a cycling company that has not had too much Global exposure.

 

[arcteryx33]

Plug orange some more. Orange in England has a different rep. Most riders I know from the UK see orange as inferior. Funny how that works.

 

[SinatorJ]

i'm not trying to be a jerk, this is just how basic marketing works.

 

[Horrendous Hack]

Originally posted by Acadian
you sure about that?

Yes. I live in England and I've been to the factory where they are constructed.
A freiend has a Patriot at the moment, a 2001, very nice build all round. True theres a crack on the bottom of the down tube, but thats because he's crazy and the bikes been through alot of abuse. He sent it back to Orange and they are welding and respraying it for very little. It is way out of warranty.

The 223 is a very nice bike, simple, effective, light and pedals relatively well with good tracking and excellent response when you point it downhill.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by arcteryx33
Plug orange some more. Orange in England has a different rep. Most riders I know from the UK see orange as inferior. Funny how that works.

Only due to the pricepoint..it is incredible cheap there, due to being made in country with no import taxes.

It is also known as one of the most dependable bikes on the planet, including in england.

 

[Horrendous Hack]

Originally posted by SinatorJ
...and I suppose the fact that Orange3 is based in Engand had nothing to do with Peaty's decision. Don't you think that it makes for a great partnership to race a bike made in your own country. Let's face it, The UK is not the cutting edge og bike design. What a better way to promote a cycling company that has not had too much Global exposure.

With all due respect, thats bollocks

I've talked to Peaty twice at length and asked him why does he ride Orange out of all the comapnies there are. He pretty uch said that to his it felt intensively stiff, excellent to changes in direction, suspension picked everything (good simple design but light swingarm which adds to function, light and geometry suit shim well. He said it's simplicity is not to be seen as a bad thing as it does a excellent job and the ore complicated thing get the more can go wrong/has to be setup etc.

 

[arcteryx33]

The shop that I worked for a few years outside philly would hire about 4-5 people from the UK every season for sales and shop. When I brought my 222 to the shop when I bought it they made me regret by telling me all the horror stories of endless 222's and patriots coming into the shop with broken shock mounts, seat tubes, and ovalized headtubes. They also laughed too

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Horrendous Hack
With all due respect, thats bollocks

I've talked to Peaty twice at length and asked him why does he ride Orange out of all the comapnies there are. He pretty uch said that to his it felt intensively stiff, excellent to changes in direction, suspension picked everything (good simple design but light swingarm which adds to function, light and geometry suit shim well. He said it's simplicity is not to be seen as a bad thing as it does a excellent job and the ore complicated thing get the more can go wrong/has to be setup etc.

We have a winner. Almost word for word what Andy told me when i asked him why they picked it 2 years ago.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by arcteryx33
The shop that I worked for a few years outside philly would hire about 4-5 people from the UK every season for sales and shop. When I brought my 222 to the shop when I bought it they made me regret by telling me all the horror stories of endless 222's and patriots coming into the shop with broken shock mounts, seat tubes, and ovalized headtubes. They also laughed too

1 year had problems with shock mount welds. That is it. From anyoeni have talked to, it is known as a super dependable, simple design.

I think your employees were smack addicts or something.

 

[arcteryx33]

Hmmm words from a sponsered rider. For a paycheck to ride I would say anything too

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by arcteryx33
Hmmm words from a sponsered rider. For a paycheck to ride I would say anything too

 

[Horrendous Hack]

Originally posted by arcteryx33
Hmmm words from a sponsered rider. For a paycheck to ride I would say anything too

 

[arcteryx33]

No my friends are not addicts. Attack my friends thats a strong way to make your point. I had all those problems, first, shock mount snaped off, second head tube badly damaged, third seat tube seperated form top tube. And I was never taken care of. Crash replacement fees and months of waiting. Great company.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by arcteryx33
No my friends are not addicts. Attack my friends thats a strong way to make your point. I had all those problems, first, shock mount snaped off, second head tube badly damaged, third seat tube seperated form top tube. And I was never taken care of. Crash replacement fees and months of waiting. Great company.

If all that happenned to 1 bike, any bike, you were doing more then just riding along. Sorry, bikes don't fail in so many places at once without major trauma.

 

[arcteryx33]

They were all new replacements. not fixes. And ask anybody I dont even ride that much

 

[Jm_]

Originally posted by Transcend
That as well as the fact that it is the most popular privateer bike on the planet due to it's low maintenance/high dependability.

.

If "the planet" does not include the united states, and could be substaciated somewhere else...then maybe, but definitly not here.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Jm_
If "the planet" does not include the united states, and could be substaciated somewhere else...then maybe, but definitly not here.

I mean as a whole. They are just starting to push into the american market, so obviously not solely in america.

 

[D_D]

Originally posted by Transcend
Only due to the pricepoint..it is incredible cheap there, due to being made in country with no import taxes.

It is also known as one of the most dependable bikes on the planet, including in england.

They are not that cheap here ~$2800 for a 223 with a 5th. There are cheaper frames available.

I am not sure they are really seen as inferior either. There are quite a lot about. An orange of one form or another is proberly the most common full sus frame that I see,

 

[arcteryx33]

thats just the impression I got from the some shop employees from the UK.