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?????

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,678
2
San Francisco
dante said:
So if I wanted to pay for a 50' billboard inside the Capital building showing two naked guys kissing in a loving embrace, you'd be ok with that? You know, my money, my expressing myself on public property? Or how about a 50' billboard memorializing the 19 hijackers from 9/11? There are lots of idiots with money in this country, but that still doesn't mean that we should be subsidizing their idiocy... (and no, none of the groups in question pay for the space that they're using)
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Look, I don't care how someone wants to express themselves. Would I like seeing a 50' billboard of two naked men kissing? Nope, but so what if I like it or not? Someone else obviously does.

It's not fair to others for me to just walk around deciding who can and who can't express themselves, and it's not fair for others to do that to me.

Now... you may get into legality issues with the men being naked, but if it's a waist up photo of them kissing and I try to restrict a photo like that being on a public ad, then you might as well censor all photos of kissing from public ads because a lesbian woman may not like seeing a man groping a woman just as much as I don't want to see a man groping another man. Censoring all kissing would be much worse than not censoring any kissing.
 
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Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,678
2
San Francisco
dante said:
Apparently you don't know what a church looks like...

And no, they didn't have government (or Vatican) permission to put those up.
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Apparently you are missing the point.

It shouldn't matter if a group of gay rights activists wants to put up a 50' banner of two men kissing in the state capital to promote tolerance of their beliefs. Doesn't this happen already? Have you never seen a gay rights parade/protest/etc?
 
dante

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
????? said:
Apparently you are missing the point.

It shouldn't matter if a group of gay rights activists wants to put up a 50' banner of two men kissing in the state capital to promote tolerance of their beliefs. Doesn't this happen already? Have you never seen a gay rights parade/protest/etc?
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You don't know what actually happens in this country, do you?
 
gonefirefightin

gonefirefightin

free wieners
Feb 5, 2007
12,565
6,745
Surrounded by Police in a hail of gunfire
????? said:
Oh good grief. A Christmas Tree isn't going to change anyones religious belief... It may be adopted by Christians, but it isn't all that religious of a holiday. The roots of it aren't celebrating anything 'godly'.
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Going to get a real tree some time this week...hope it doesn't end up like Amy Winehouse. Dead, 5 ft 6, and surrounded by needles before Christmas
 
dante

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
????? said:
It was a rhetorical question. I know they happen. You don't seem to admit that they do.

Are you intolerant of other peoples beliefs just because they don't agree with yours?
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No, there are no posters depicting gay people put up in any of the state or federal buildings. They certainly aren't put there using US taxpayer dollars. There are definitely no announcements of it sent out (again, using taxpayer dollars), or politicians celebrating it as a "holiday". It just doesn't exist.

Yes, there are parades that are on public streets put on by private citizens. There's a HUGE difference between that and state-sponsored Christmas Trees, and if you can't grasp that simple concept, I honestly don't know what to tell you...

And no, it's not about disagreeing with other people's beliefs, as I *actually* celebrate Christmas. I just don't think that it should be used as a tool by the religious right to cram their views down other people's throats. Private decorations on private property, GREAT. Governors having religious ceremonies in public buildings and purposely excluding those who don't have the same beliefs, NOT GREAT.

I'm sorry that your faith is so weak that you can't exist without state-sponsored religion backing you up. I'm sorry that you have to have your faith reaffirmed by your state and local governments or it's not valid somehow. I'm sorry that without the federal and state governments giving your religion an official backing you feel that you are being oppressed somehow. Well, too bad. It's time that you grow up and learn that everyone is allowed to make their own choices, and people who make choices that are different from yours aren't necessarily "bad".

I'm actually growing sick and tired of Christmas itself. It's not about getting together for the holidays anymore and being thankful for family and friends, it's turned into either a) crass consumerism where people spend money they don't have on crap other people don't need or b) just another tool that conservatives in this country can use to exclude others and make them feel "unAmerican". It's just another way for certain people in this country to talk about "Two Americas", and how good, upstanding, Christian people are "real Americans", and atheists, Jews, Muslims etc are all not "real Americans". You want to see religious persecution in this country? Try running for office as an Atheist. 50+% of Americans wouldn't vote for an Atheist for president.

And sure enough, here as we work our way towards Christmas, what are we arguing about? Whether certain people in this country can shove their religious views on to others in the form of state-sponsored religious displays. Can you see why people are a little bit sick and tired of the "War on Christmas" BS that's spouted by some on the right (and yourself)? And all people are asking is that even with decorations (paid for by US taxpayers), the politicians refrain from calling them blatantly religious symbols and focusing on the "holiday" aspect, but apparently that's just a little too much for some people. They have to have their CHRISTmas tree, and their CHRISTmas party, and their CHRISTmas Nativity Scene on government property, and their "Keep Christ in Christmas" signs and....

Bah Humbug. I liked Christmas far better when it was about getting together with family, and small presents, and caroling to your next-door neighbors and Christmas lights outside your house. Now apparently it's not a holiday if you're not alienating 1/4 of the population while shoving state-sponsored religion down their throats.

Merry F(*@king Christmas
 
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Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,678
2
San Francisco
dante said:
No, there are no posters depicting gay people put up in any of the state or federal buildings. They certainly aren't put there using US taxpayer dollars. There are definitely no announcements of it sent out (again, using taxpayer dollars), or politicians celebrating it as a "holiday". It just doesn't exist.

Yes, there are parades that are on public streets put on by private citizens. There's a HUGE difference between that and state-sponsored Christmas Trees, and if you can't grasp that simple concept, I honestly don't know what to tell you...
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This EXACT situation of a 50' banner of two naked men barebacking each other in a state capitol may not exist, but the concept of using tax-payer money to honor memorable gay rights activists, civil rights activists, soldiers, and any other person or group of people that significantly changed the way people live today does exist. Jesus, son of god or not, fits into that category.

My opinion is that you treat all of these groups equally, regardless of how they have been treated in the past or present.
 
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Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,678
2
San Francisco
dante said:
Now apparently it's not a holiday if you're not alienating 1/4 of the population while shoving state-sponsored religion down their throats.
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This is a problem with many religious groups, but maybe instead of oppressing these peoples freedom of speech and further aggravating them, a better approach would be to convince them that allowing gays to serve openly in the military isn't going to turn the United States Military into one huge gay ****fest.
 
Straya

Straya

Monkey
Jul 11, 2008
863
3
Straya
^ignore all evidence to the contrary, tell them to 'believe' and talk for so long that the other party gives up in disgust.
 
stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,347
10,275
blackohio said:
how do you convince someone who believes something with zero factual basis that people currently living on the planet are wrong because of some book.
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kill them all along with twilight and harry potter fans...
 
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Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,678
2
San Francisco
Shame on Lowe's for caving in to the demands of a special interest group just so that they could make more money. Lowe's should have told them to pound sand, but unfortunately they want money more than they want to treat people equally.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
????? said:
Shame on Lowe's for caving in to the demands of a special interest group just so that they could make more money. Lowe's should have told them to pound sand, but unfortunately they want money more than they want to treat people equally.
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There are far more moderates than white trash extremists who shop at Lowes. Most people never heard of that TLC show or its Lowes' ad slot before this happened. Lowes will lose money if they don't act swiftly.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
https://unicornbooty.com/blog/2011/12/12/romney-accidentally-crashes-married-gay-vets-date-while-trolling-for-anti-gay-votes/

Romney sat down at a table with a vietnam vet, on an anniversary date with his husband, and started bashing gay marriage- specifically, the nh law that allowed the couple to marry in the first place. Guess who just failed the decent-human-being test?
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Great comments:

Come to think of it, when the Constitution was written, Mormonism didn't exist. So does that mean it shouldn't be recognized as a religion with equal protection under the law?
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dante

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Lol, "Public Relations 101: What NOT to do". Lowes has succeeded in turning a tiny boycott from a group that nobody's ever heard of into a sh!tstorm that's now national news... If the Family Research Council couldn't get a boycott of a company like Ford to stick, how exactly is the Florida Family Association going to do anything?
 
dante

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
The comments on Lowes FB page are just about evenly split between calls for a boycott and calls for support. It's easy enough to imagine Lowes CEO saying "see, this is the type of contentious issue that we wanted to avoid, which is why we pulled our advertising..."
 
blackohio

blackohio

Generous jaywalker
Mar 12, 2009
2,773
122
Hellafornia. Formerly stumptown.
The fact is Lowes is contending with extremist views (left and right) and ultimately caved to bigotry and ignorance. I've noticed that idiots feel this country has some national allegiance to a white-anglo saxon religion is absurd. The only reason those morons think that way is because of fear and extremist views during the McCarthyism era.

I'm not advocating limiting anyones right to worship whatever they want, I am however advocating battling (and make no mistake this is as much a war as any fought) ignorance and bigotry based off this logic train "The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
 
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syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
dante said:
The comments on Lowes FB page are just about evenly split between calls for a boycott and calls for support. It's easy enough to imagine Lowes CEO saying "see, this is the type of contentious issue that we wanted to avoid, which is why we pulled our advertising..."
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Like most self selected viewpoint sampling on the internet (product/company/etc) you often do not get a sample that represents the distribution of the population as a whole. Their marketing people should be able to tell the CEO that...
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
The ????? and Evangelicals are attacking our nation's oldest traditions and laws of the land:

The Pilgrims faithfully observed the Sabbath, and did not work on Sunday. Even when the Pilgrims were exploring Cape Cod, to the Mayflower crew's dismay, they stopped everything and stayed in camp on Sunday to keep the Sabbaths. The Pilgrims did not celebrate Christmas and Easter. These holidays were invented by man to memorialize Jesus, and are not prescribed by the Bible or celebrated by the early Christian churches, and therefore cannot be considered Holy days. "It seems too much for any mortal man to appoint, or make an anniversary memorial" for Christ, taught the Pilgrims' pastor John Robinson.
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In fact, by Christmas, 1659 the Five-Shilling Anti-Christmas Law was enacted by the General Court of Massachusetts. The law stated:

Whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas, or the like, either by forebearing labor, feasting, or any other way upon such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for each offense five shillings as a fine to the country.


Boston actually outlawed the celebration of Christmas from 1659 to 1681.

Even after the law was set aside in 1681, New Englanders were slow to accept Christmas. The customs of gift giving and parties and even decorations were considered to be pagan customs. My research indicates even as late as 1870 Boston schools held classes on Christmas Day.
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syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Circa 1659. An American Tradition. Stop the war on our heritage by dirty white immigrants.

 
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