[Reactor]

Does this sound like andyman to anyone??


By Jay Bakker and Marc Brown
Special to CNN

Editor's note: Jay Bakker, son of former Praise The Lord leaders Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye Messner, is minister of Revolution Church and subject of a new documentary series, "One Punk Under God," on Sundance Channel. Marc Brown is a Revolution staff member.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- What the hell happened? Where did we go wrong? How was Christianity co-opted by a political party? Why are Christians supporting laws that force others to live by their standards? The answers to these questions are integral to the survival of Christianity.

While the current state of Christianity might seem normal and business-as-usual to some, most see through the judgment and hypocrisy that has permeated the church for so long. People witness this and say to themselves, "Why would I want to be a part of that?" They are turned off by Christians and eventually, to Christianity altogether. We can't even count the number of times someone has given us a weird stare or completely brushed us off when they discover we work for a church. (Watch how self-proclaimed punk preacher Jay Bakker has found his own niche in the Christian community )

So when did the focus of Christianity shift from the unconditional love and acceptance preached by Christ to the hate and condemnation spewed forth by certain groups today? Some say it was during the rise of Conservative Christianity in the early 1980s with political action groups like the Moral Majority. Others say it goes way back to the 300s, when Rome's Christian Emperor Constantine initiated a set of laws limiting the rights of Roman non-Christians. Regardless of the origin, one thing is crystal clear: It's not what Jesus stood for.

His parables and lessons were focused on love and forgiveness, a message of "come as you are, not as you should be." The bulk of his time was spent preaching about helping the poor and those who are unable to help themselves. At the very least, Christians should be counted on to lend a helping hand to the poor and others in need.

This brings us to the big issues of American Christianity: Abortion and gay marriage. These two highly debatable topics will not be going away anytime soon. Obviously, the discussion centers around whether they are right or wrong, but is the screaming really necessary? After years of witnessing the dark side of religion, Marc and I think not.

Christians should be able to look past their differences and agree to disagree. This allows people to discuss issues with respect for one another. Christians are called to love others just as they are, without an agenda. Only then will Christianity see a return to its roots: Loving God with all of your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself.

The Apostle Paul describes this idea of love beautifully in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7: "Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance."

But don't take our word for it; look at what Jesus and his followers stood for in his time and what Christianity stands for today. Then come to your own conclusion

 

[reflux]

Does this sound like andyman to anyone??

Agreed.

Saddly though, these "punk" Christians will be viewed by the majority as liberal outliers who aren't true believers. For the xth time this year, I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

[SPINTECK]

the problem with religion is that intelligent businessmen can lead sheeple and make money in the name of any God. Our founding fathers new about this and seperated church and state, but as americans become less educated and more drunk on TV, Fast Food and greed, we give up our rights to freedom in the name of morals and usually loose some cash to those who act moral and talk a good game.

Long live the dividend holders and their lower tax rate!!

 

[jaydee]

The problem is that Christianity started going wrong about 10 minutes after Christ made his exit. It really started to pick up speed in the wrong direction when Constantine made it a political agenda. Then the popes of the Middle Ages gave a whole new meaning to the words "religious persecution". And Christianity just gets worse with age. If Christ could or wanted to come back now, I think he'd just start over with a new name, make sure he wrote the rulebook himself, and digitally sign the document.

 

[rooftest]

"Our founding fathers new about this and seperated church and state, but as americans become less educated....

Yeah - Americans are becoming less educated all right. How many people were in college in the late 1700's? I'm not suprised this isn't something you "new."

 

[JohnE]

Tell Jay Bakker that for all his good intentions, and I do beleive he is on the right track, people like his Dad and Mum are responsible for alot of the hate directed at Christianity today. Remember, Jesus was a hippy. Sandals, love, forgiveness, open defiance of authority, accepting people for who they were etc. Way, way, way before luxury jets for Benny Hinn and Jim and Tammy.

 

[Da Peach]

Someone buy that kid a private jet.

 

[stinkyboy]

At the very least, Christians should be counted on to lend a helping hand to the poor and others in need.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[DRB]

Tell Jay Bakker that for all his good intentions, and I do beleive he is on the right track, people like his Dad and Mum are responsible for alot of the hate directed at Christianity today. Remember, Jesus was a hippy. Sandals, love, forgiveness, open defiance of authority, accepting people for who they were etc. Way, way, way before luxury jets for Benny Hinn and Jim and Tammy.

Its interesting you use the word forgiveness.

His mom and dad are responsible for the fact that, like so many before and after them, got caught up in something, let it get out of control and then had their lives shattered because of it. They certainly were responsible for it and have paid a heavy price.

But to lay the fact that a lot of the hate directed at Christianity is their fault is wrong.

 

[stinkyboy]

 

[Secret Squirrel]

If there ever was the face of god to be seen by all, I hope it's that one....^^



:Barf:

 

[jimmydean]

I would like to see his show (maybe an episode or two), but I guess I'm strange and stuff.

 

[JohnE]

Its interesting you use the word forgiveness.

His mom and dad are responsible for the fact that, like so many before and after them, got caught up in something, let it get out of control and then had their lives shattered because of it. They certainly were responsible for it and have paid a heavy price.

But to lay the fact that a lot of the hate directed at Christianity is their fault is wrong.

ALOT of the hate, not all. How many do you think have been turned off by the wrong messages sent by the dollars for deliverance crowd? "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to Heaven" (Or something like that!)

 

[Silver]

But to lay the fact that a lot of the hate directed at Christianity is their fault is wrong.

I'd actually agree with that. The Bakkers and Benny Hinn are an interesting subset...they are basically begging for your money. The fact that the people giving are widows and such just makes them really crappy human beings, but the real culprits are Falwell and Robertson and Dobson. They've made Christian hate the defacto position, and then when they get criticized, they get defensive because it's obviously just the God hating commies that are coming after them...

And that's not fair, btw. I'm not a communist...

 

[manimal]

this is why i belong to this church.

http://www.expedition-nc.org/main.htm

Keep in mind that in all of His dealings on earth with so many different kinds of people, Jesus had the biggest problem with the religious leaders. They felt righteous in their own actions and demanded their way be followed, by all. Their condemnation was brutal. Jesus was determined to expose the failure of all religions except the way that He was setting up. eXpedition: is as determined to help.

"The way it’s always been” is not a good enough answer for this generation. eXpedition: agrees. We want individuals to always be able to think critically and prove things from the “manual” (Bible). So come along, bring your manual, (or we’ll get you one) and find out that God really DOES know what He’s talking about...you’ll see. "

by far, the most accepting, honest and realistic church i've ever been a part of. i still do the sunday morning thing at our old church for the wife and kids but i feel as if i get nothing out of it. the kids enjoy their sunday school classes but i inspect and critique everything they learn in there to make sure that they're not being taught fundamentalist, non-biblical doctrine that runs runs rampant in most modern-day churches.

btw, silver, you'd actually like my church, me thinks; or at least find it intellectually challenging. every other month we have "doubt night" where we bring up the difficult questions posed by christianity and try to find the answers together. it's not your typical sheeple answer of, "because the pastor said so".

 

[JRogers]

this is why i belong to this church.

http://www.expedition-nc.org/main.htm

Keep in mind that in all of His dealings on earth with so many different kinds of people, Jesus had the biggest problem with the religious leaders. They felt righteous in their own actions and demanded their way be followed, by all. Their condemnation was brutal. Jesus was determined to expose the failure of all religions except the way that He was setting up. eXpedition: is as determined to help.

"The way it’s always been” is not a good enough answer for this generation. eXpedition: agrees. We want individuals to always be able to think critically and prove things from the “manual” (Bible). So come along, bring your manual, (or we’ll get you one) and find out that God really DOES know what He’s talking about...you’ll see. "

by far, the most accepting, honest and realistic church i've ever been a part of. i still do the sunday morning thing at our old church for the wife and kids but i feel as if i get nothing out of it. the kids enjoy their sunday school classes but i inspect and critique everything they learn in there to make sure that they're not being taught fundamentalist, non-biblical doctrine that runs runs rampant in most modern-day churches.

btw, silver, you'd actually like my church, me thinks; or at least find it intellectually challenging. every other month we have "doubt night" where we bring up the difficult questions posed by christianity and try to find the answers together. it's not your typical sheeple answer of, "because the pastor said so".

Interesting site and ideas. But after reading through some of it, I am left wondering if it's really more than a new name and a new method to the same end. Pulled from the site:

"The Christianity Jesus started was totally different. Instead of man trying to be “righteous” and trying to “pay” for his sins, God made a sacrifice through Jesus as the single and ONLY payment possible…period! Through this sacrifice we ARE right with God and there is nothing else we can do to be any more right with God. This is what could be called the scandal of God’s grace.

We have a saying at eXpedition: that explains the difference we see between Christianity and all other forms of religion…

Religion is spelled D-O (what you have to do to be right with God and pay Him off)

Christianity is spelled D-O-N-E (what was done on the cross for us and given as a gift). "

Not that I have any real experience with this church...but it seems like it may base its ministry on the difference in the means of asking questions and perhaps not the actual answers. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Silver]

btw, silver, you'd actually like my church, me thinks; or at least find it intellectually challenging. every other month we have "doubt night" where we bring up the difficult questions posed by christianity and try to find the answers together. it's not your typical sheeple answer of, "because the pastor said so".

Run something pretty basic past them next week:

If God is all knowing, how can he be all powerful? Or, in other words, if God's knowledge is not bound by time, how can he made a free decision?

Or if you're feeling terribly naughty, you could always run Epicurus by them:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

(Now, I'd maybe not throw the second one out there. I don't want you getting into trouble...but I'd be interested in some of the responses. Andyman still owes me one one the Epicurean paradox )

 

[Changleen]

I love that Epicurus quote.

 

[SeaPig]

Mom! oster_oops:

 

[ohio]

I love that Epicurus quote.

Unfortunately (because I would love it to) it doesn't hold up. The conclusions of the logic chain are not valid, particularly the malevolent one, as their are alternate branches, especially for the disciplinarians in the crowd. (George Lakoff reference coming up...) And it's the divide between nurturers and disciplinarians that is the fundamental difference between these resurgent fundamentalists and liberal-minded Christians.

 

[Silver]

Unfortunately (because I would love it to) it doesn't hold up. The conclusions of the logic chain are not valid, particularly the malevolent one, as their are alternate branches, especially for the disciplinarians in the crowd. (George Lakoff reference coming up...) And it's the divide between nurturers and disciplinarians that is the fundamental difference between these resurgent fundamentalists and liberal-minded Christians.

I love arguing with people who think that the second statement is false, because evil in the world is God basically showing us father like discipline.
(I assume that's where you're going? I haven't read Lakoff yet...)

It's funny, because in five minutes you get them to a spot where God is a lot like a war criminal who engages in collective punishment.

 

[ohio]

I love arguing with people who think that the second statement is false, because evil in the world is God basically showing us father like discipline.
(I assume that's where you're going? I haven't read Lakoff yet...)

It's funny, because in five minutes you get them to a spot where God is a lot like a war criminal who engages in collective punishment.

yup, that's where I was going. I beat my children BECAUSE I care.

 

[Silver]

yup, that's where I was going. I beat my children BECAUSE I care.

By the way, which Lakoff books are worth reading? I'm not terribly interested in the political stuff, but if you read anything you thought was notable from him, I'd like to take a peek at it.

 

[ohio]

By the way, which Lakoff books are worth reading? I'm not terribly interested in the political stuff, but if you read anything you thought was notable from him, I'd like to take a peek at it.

I've only read Moral Politics and Don't Think of An Elephant. Moral Politics is pretty academic and not easy reading. 'Elephant is the cliff's notes version without all the theory and focused purely on the linguistics... super easy to read and won't take much time investment at all, even if you're not into politics. It skips a lot of the discussion of the roots of "morals," but I'd call it worthwhile.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I beat my children BECAUSE I care.

I just do it for sh*ts and giggles....does that make me better?