[Sideways]

I'm worried about a seemingly gradual though quick loss of freedom here.
Anyone else been trying to analyze the political rhetoric lately?

Stuff don't seem right these days.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Originally posted by Sideways
I'm worried about a seemingly gradual though quick loss of freedom here.
Anyone else been trying to analyze the political rhetoric lately?

Stuff don't seem right these days.

I don't feel as if my personal freedoms are being violated in any way.

 

[Sideways]

Kill at will?
This is disturbing.

And whats this all about?


These are just the most recent headlines that make me feel uncomfortable.

 

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by Sideways
Kill at will?
This is disturbing.

And whats this all about?


These are just the most recent headlines that make me feel uncomfortable.

read the gore vidal essay that will disturb you even more

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Sideways
Kill at will?
This is disturbing.

And whats this all about?


These are just the most recent headlines that make me feel uncomfortable.

Have you read the entire text of the "homeland security" bill???

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by eric strt6
read the gore vidal essay that will disturb you even more

Thanks for putting that out for us to see...

 

[Sideways]

I can't believe the nation is so blind to not notice or care that oil barons are in control of our country.

It's not to be taken lightly.
My little brother is the perfect draft candidate. 17yrs old and strong.

So a few guys can go from rich to enormously rich?
Hell no.

What bothers me more is the context of the bush name calling.
here

Thats just one of three cases that have been headlines.
Folks picked on Raegan all day long without being publically frowned upon.
Which makes me ask, "what the hell is going on here?"

I don't know if the various Bush/Nazi connections have had an effect on my forcast of the situation.....but there's certainly no news that's weakening it.

 

[Damn True]

Oh bullsh1t.

Your personal freedom is not being assaulted.

Wire taps? ( I know you didn't mention it, but many do when they start this discussion)
Let them tap my phone. The only thing they will hear from me is my Grandmother asking me over for dinner on Thursday. What are you worried about them hearing?

Kill at will:
"These officials said the authority will be used only when other options are unavailable. Military-like strikes will take place only when law enforcement and internal security efforts by allied foreign countries fail, the officials said.
I'm fine with that. If they are working for Al-Queda they are traitors, and enemies of the State. They are involoved in a was against the US. Therefore they are combatants. Combatants get killed in combat.

Military recuiting:
New U.S. law says high schools must cooperate with Pentagon on recruiting
Again, no problem. An increase in voulenteer recuits will reduce the numbers that need to be drafted should it come to that. Which is highly unlikely. By the way, YOU are more desireable than your little brother. Discipline is higher in mid 20's men than early 20's. Besides, there is absolutely nothing wrong with spending some time in the military. Run a little poll in the lounge. There are lots of us who have served. It's a great place to sort yourself out and set yourself up to go to school, go while still enlisted, or get a head start on training to continue after your enlistment.

As paranoid as you are, you must be a riot when you are high.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Damn True
Oh bullsh1t.

Your personal freedom is not being assaulted.

Wire taps? ( I know you didn't mention it, but many do when they start this discussion)
Let them tap my phone. The only thing they will hear from me is my Grandmother asking me over for dinner on Thursday. What are you worried about them hearing?

Kill at will:
"These officials said the authority will be used only when other options are unavailable. Military-like strikes will take place only when law enforcement and internal security efforts by allied foreign countries fail, the officials said.
I'm fine with that. If they are working for Al-Queda they are traitors, and enemies of the State. They are involoved in a was against the US. Therefore they are combatants. Combatants get killed in combat.

Military recuiting:
New U.S. law says high schools must cooperate with Pentagon on recruiting
Again, no problem. An increase in voulenteer recuits will reduce the numbers that need to be drafted should it come to that. Which is highly unlikely. By the way, YOU are more desireable than your little brother. Discipline is higher in mid 20's men than early 20's. Besides, there is absolutely nothing wrong with spending some time in the military. Run a little poll in the lounge. There are lots of us who have served. It's a great place to sort yourself out and set yourself up to go to school, go while still enlisted, or get a head start on training to continue after your enlistment.

As paranoid as you are, you must be a riot when you are high.

Wiretaps are okay? You get hit in the cabesa while in the military man? Lets not lose site that we are Americans, who were opposed to the regime in Moscow just a few years ago. People were just appaled at the lack of privacy the citizens had there...

Now your just willing to adopt their techniques?

Por Que?

I have nothing to hide either True, but I sure as hell don't want the government trying to deceide if my "meetings" with the "crew" are terrorist activity, or just me and the guys planning our next "urban assault" ride.

Originally posted by Damn True
As paranoid as you are, you must be a riot when you are high.

What does this personal attack have to do with the issue?

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Damn True
As paranoid as you are, you must be a riot when you are high.

Yep....but that's beside the point.

Bush is changing the rules, literally.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by ummbikes




What does this personal attack have to do with the issue?

It's not an attack. Marshall is a smart guy. I like him. I disagree with him a lot, but I respect his passion in his beliefs......even if he is wrong.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Sideways
Yep....but that's beside the point.

Bush is changing the rules, literally.

Some of the rules NEED to be changed.

I think we agree that there are tons of things that our govt. has done wrong, or changes that have been made for the worng reasons.

Change is good, it makes people think. It usually brings on more change....which is good.

We may not come up with the best solution the first time out, but we never will if we don't start doing SOMETHING. It's all a process.

 

[Serial Midget]

I don't mind George too much, I didn't vote for him but he is who we have at the moment. My only complaint is how much money he is spending... live fire practice ain't that expensive.

I am old enough to remember the early 70's. I will NEVER take a politician or journalist at face value.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Damn True
It's not an attack. Marshall is a smart guy. I like him. I disagree with him a lot, but I respect his passion in his beliefs......even if he is wrong.

Well okay then...

I'm always watching you True, always watching...
(stolen from Monsters INC.)

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Well okay then...

I'm always watching you True, always watching...
(stolen from Monsters INC.)

Yes, yes... he needs to be watched; I expect big things from DT. You never know what Damn True might be up to next. A trip to Victorias Secret or front row seats at a Creed concert... or... perhap a spot on November's ballot??? What do you say True... will you run for something??? I'd vote for you.


BTW. Presidents are not allowed to surf naked as it makes the Secret Service uncomfortable so perhaps a local office would be a better start.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Yes, yes... he needs to be watched; I expect big things from DT. You never know what Damn True might be up to next. A trip to Victorias Secret or front row seats at a Creed concert... or... perhap a spot on November's ballot??? What do you say True... will you run for something??? I'd vote for you.


BTW. Presidents are not allowed to surf naked as it makes the Secret Service uncomfortable so perhaps a local office would be a better start.

Actually I have thought about running for some sort of office at some point in my future.

But the real question here is, how did you know of my proclivity for surfing naked? I used to do it a lot when I lived in Hawaii. A bit to chilly for it around here.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Damn True
Actually I have thought about running for some sort of office at some point in my future.

But the real question here is, how did you know of my proclivity for surfing naked? I used to do it a lot when I lived in Hawaii. A bit to chilly for it around here.

Some time back in a thead about a naked crit. Discussion went to other fun nudist activities. I run 3 naked 5K races in the summer, other posted their fun, g-rated nudist activities as well.

BTW. All politics start local, I was involved for a time in my area. There are an amazing amount of scumbags and loosers at the lower levels. It amazed me what passed for business as usual. The pay is so low that no one with good prospects will pare the time. True civic minded people are rare.

 

[patconnole]

I'm gonna have to say I'm not scared personally--- but I don't like where this is heading. Saying this is a process is a good way to look at it, in order to find the best way to do things, we need to keep moving, changing---- however, letting CIA operatives decide who is and who isn't a combatant or an enemy of the state, decide if there are any more options or not, and then kill or not kill the person in question....... pretty much goes against this whole idea of "due process", I think that might be on the bill of rights? Not sure.

Giving the whole power of judge, jury, and executioner to people or groups within the CIA reminds of the movie "Judge Dredd". check it out, dude.....


Even if I have nothing to hide (which I don't, by the way... ), that's besides the point of whether the gov. has a right to view my library loan records, financial/credit history, travel itenary, etc. It's just a matter of privacy--not "well you've got something to hide because you don't want your phone tapped", privacy is a right by itself.

I'll see if I can find the link, but I read an article (actually, maybe I posted it here) where about 8 people were yanked off a plane, on it's way to the middle east, and then to afganistan, leaving from new york.... the trip was organized by a san francisco group to let US citizens go to afganistan and see first hand what the conditions are like, what the recovery process is like, and the US involvement. They were interrogated for, maybe up to 8 hours, but were eventually let go and sent on their way.

The FBI (or CIA) had asked them if anyone in the group or the people that organized it had made "Anti-American statements".

Well, I'm not anti-american, I love this place, but I am ANTI-MOST-AMERICAN-POLICY, and I want to change it through legal means. Is that anti-american? Should the power of answering that question be given to CIA operatives, instead of a judge and jury in a public courtroom?

Yeah, I am scared, because I would definetly head to afganistan to check it out, if I could afford it. I understand the need for increased security--- being pulled off a plane isn't horrible...... But the direction it takes us is scary....."Where are your papers!? Papers, please!"

 

[BurlyShirley]

Oh man.........


Quit your boohooing and just get on with business as usual.
If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.....period.

I hear so many people whining about their rights day in and day out. Its not like they could even monitor every phone in the country if they wanted to. It would most likely be done to people who were under some sort of suspicion...in which case, all they're bypassing is alot of paperwork to get a wire tap.

How does this affect you and I?

Other than perhaps getting some criminals off the street before or after they commit a crime.........it doesnt.

Kick back, turn on the simpsons and have a laugh. Yeah...big business powers your TV. Go ahead and be against that too. Im sure all you revolutionaries hate it. But its what we go, and what we got aint half bad.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Im sure all you revolutionaries hate it. But its what we go, and what we got aint half bad.

Revolutionary?

If someone is against liberties being taken away, and vocal about how the government is run, they are far from a revolutionary.

Just because some disagree with President Bush's policys doesn't make them anti-american. They are just enjoying the freedom of expression, you know, the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States. If we are worried about wire taps without warrants, incarceration with out trial, and captiol puinishment with out trial, it is because we have an understanding of precious our freedom is and how easy it was for Hitler, Stalin, Franco et al to gain power, and strip their citizens of freedom.

Thats being a good American.

 

[patconnole]

I'm not boohooing about what's going on with my rights, right now...... You're right, I have it good, and the simpons are cool.

But-

I disagree with "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.....period."


There's a reason there's all that paperwork in the way of wiretaps, etc..... so the power isn't missused. I'm not complaining about my situation, about my rights, right now, because they haven't been affected... Even so, isn't this important?

Yes, we all want crime to be prevented, we all want terrorism prevented..... but the costs of giving people the individual power to decide who's under suspicion, who is an enemy of the state, who gets their phone tapped, how to interpret the results of those phone tappings, and (as that new al-qada policy seems to say) who gets killed----are pretty high.

Even if I haven't personally been affected by these policy changes--- When should I start caring about it? I'm not a terrorist, or a criminal--- but these policies seem to put too much power into the hands of people who could mistakenly/maliciously say I am. (I, being anybody..... the people detained for heading to afganistan for example)


Yeah, watch the simpons, have a good time because we've got it pretty good, but I don't see why it's unreasonable to be a little concerned.

 

[Damn True]

I can assure you with almost complete certainty as someone who has existed in Govt. service for many many years, dealt with multiple agencies including the Dept. of State, DEA, CIA and many others that a single operative will not have the power that you assume has been granted.

Stuff like that happens via channels, checks, and balances. Nothing happens without authorization, and approval. There may turn out to be a decision matrix in which a series of "IF" "AND" questions must be answered. If all else fails. Bang.

Again, I have no problem with it.

I don't know your age, but there was a time that the CIA was not the emasculated entity that it is now. During the Bush v1.0 administration the Dem. congress took away the departments ability to conduct "black" ops w/o a report to a congressional oversight comitee. Hardly an ideal situation for Operational Security. During the "OLD" CIA a guy like Bin-Laden would have never come to power. He would have been killed shortly after he became slightly more than barely significant.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by patconnole



Yeah, watch the simpons, have a good time because we've got it pretty good, but I don't see why it's unreasonable to be a little concerned.

What concerns me is that there are people in this country RIGHT NOW who are willing to do nearly anything to kill you, me, or anyone else for the sake of their absurd fanatacism.

I want them found and put to justice. I am willing to give up a lot to see that happen.

 

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by Damn True
What concerns me is that there are people in this country RIGHT NOW who are willing to do nearly anything to kill you, me, or anyone else for the sake of their absurd fanatacism.

I want them found and put to justice. I am willing to give up a lot to see that happen.

I for one am not willing to give up anything that is spelled out in the constitution or the bill of rights just to make you [retorical you]
feel "safe" absolute power corrupts absolutely and frankly I do not trust the government to always act in my best interests.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by eric strt6
I for one am not willing to give up anything that is spelled out in the constitution or the bill of rights just to make you [retorical you]
feel "safe" absolute power corrupts absolutely and frankly I do not trust the government to always act in my best interests.

Absolutely. While I am not terribly opposed the the current administration or it's actions - they are not with out the restraint of an opposition. Bitch and whine as they do - this is the way it should be. If I were George Bush I'd demand the moon but settle for my face on a coin.

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by Damn True
What concerns me is that there are people in this country RIGHT NOW who are willing to do nearly anything to kill you, me, or anyone else for the sake of their absurd fanatacism.

I want them found and put to justice. I am willing to give up a lot to see that happen.

Not arguing with you here, just want to build off this statement to explain my view.


I too want those people found and put to justice (in a court, where their peers can judge them), but I'd also like to start developing policy to prevent people like bin laden from coming into existence..... and not by killing them. So yes, find and bring to justice these people RIGHT NOW, but also attempt a long term solution to the problem of "them hating us," which, I believe, is more complicated than them just hating our happiness, or freedom, or liberalism (as bush would try to point out). Getting off topic, but I think the poverty many of these people experience partly contributes to some of the hatred people feel towards the west..... And so far, our aim in Iraq and other places has been more economically and American "security" driven, than dealing with poverty/humanitarian issues. If we could all watch the simpons, nobody would get planed. (mostly, there might still be a few planings. )

 

[Damn True]

You bring up a very good point in that we are now adressing the symptoms (terror) of our problem, and not the cause. The most immediate threat must be taken care of first and that is terror. Be it on our shores, Belfast, Heidelberg, Downtown London, or Bethlehem. All terror is an affront to decent society and should be stopped. We have the most viable means of stopping it, therefore I believe it is our duty to do so. Regardless of the country that it is taking place in.
Personally, I find it shameful that it took terror on our shores to wake the proverbial "sleeping giant" (Adm. Yamomoto). We should have started this in 1972 when Arrafat's little group bombed the Israeli dorms at the Olympics. But we didn't. Mistake, and for that mistake we have three decades of their infrastructure to pick through piece by piece until we get to the source of the problem.

I don't think poverty is at all the cause. The wackos that fuel this fire are not poor. They are the wealthy elite of countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, and others who see us as an obstacle to their goals of greater wealth and power. They gain the favor of religous figures (zealots) by paying them and promising them power. The religous figures then incite fear in the masses. Fear leads to hatred (Not quoting Yoda, its just a simple truth). Not unlike the way zealots of different faiths fueled the fears of Crusade era people, Nazi Germany, and the post emancipation South. Same technique.

The thing is you can't defend against terror because it dosen't follow rules or predictable patterns. If we boost ariport security, they will build car bombs. If we check every car they will deploy airborne gasses or other agents. The only way to stop them is to take the war to their doorstep. To ferret them out wether they are down the street from you or in a bazar in Tel Aviv. To find them and stop them.

If that means the CIA has to listen to my phone calls, search my car at interstate on ramps, or cause me to stand in a line at the airport then so be it. There is no real freedom that is being taken away. The Bill of Rights does not guarentee that you won't be annoyed.

 

[patconnole]

Yepper, cool.


As far as "finding them and stopping them" because of their unconventional warfare---- it's the methods of deciding who "them" is. Burly surly said that the only consequences to us will be that criminals will be taken off the street, which, is a good thing....... but my area of concern, with respect to our rights, is of what the terms "them" "terrorist" and "criminal" will begin to envelop. As you said, there are checks and balances, but....... yeah, this is freakin complicated, but when bush calls people who question US motives, policy, etc... unpatriotic, it is a slippery slope to criminal, them, and terrorist.


I appreciate the paperwork and beaurocracies that prevent us from heading down that path...... and, I think I'd rather live in a place where we err on the side of liberty instead of criminalization.


too tired to make sense.....eh.:

 

[patconnole]

This is what I'm talking about:


http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64657,00.html

".......But McDermott and Bonior both rebuffed criticism of their comments saying that accusations that they're un-American are untrue. Both served during Vietnam.

That, however, didn't sit well with Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas, who also is a veteran.

"We are disappointed in some of our colleagues. As you know, I'm a Vietnam Veteran and POW for nearly seven years and when some of our people like the three that went to Iraq go over there and make the remarks they made, it is simply unconscionable, unpatriotic and, as far as I'm concerned, un-American," Johnson said."

end quote



This name calling is lame!

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Oh man.........


Quit your boohooing and just get on with business as usual.
If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.....period.

I hear so many people whining about their rights day in and day out. Its not like they could even monitor every phone in the country if they wanted to. It would most likely be done to people who were under some sort of suspicion...in which case, all they're bypassing is alot of paperwork to get a wire tap.

How does this affect you and I?

Other than perhaps getting some criminals off the street before or after they commit a crime.........it doesnt.

Kick back, turn on the simpsons and have a laugh. Yeah...big business powers your TV. Go ahead and be against that too. Im sure all you revolutionaries hate it. But its what we go, and what we got aint half bad.

You guys are but a step away from the thought police. Now would be a good time to re-read George Orwell's 1984.

You have read it haven't you?

 

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by fluff
You guys are but a step away from the thought police. Now would be a good time to re-read George Orwell's 1984.

You have read it haven't you?

that and Kafka's "the Trial" which seems to be occuring today

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by fluff
You guys are but a step away from the thought police. Now would be a good time to re-read George Orwell's 1984.

You have read it haven't you?

Bwahahaha! Oh whatever.

....and yes. It is required reading in CA public schools. Freshman year of H.S.

Honestly. I have no problem with any of this. I am not doing anything wrong or illegal. Why should I have anything to fear?

I think most people that are bitching and complaining are afraid their ability to acquire pot will be affected.
"****, I can't call my dealer."

 

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by Damn True
Bwahahaha! Oh whatever.

....and yes. It is required reading in CA public schools. Freshman year of H.S.

Honestly. I have no problem with any of this. I am not doing anything wrong or illegal. Why should I have anything to fear?

I think most people that are bitching and complaining are afraid their ability to acquire pot will be affected.
"****, I can't call my dealer."

Somehow I doubt that True

I think most of us have seen the abuses that this type of intrusive behaivoir have manifested around the world and we are determined not to let it occur here.

the quote goes "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoudrel" and alas I fear we have many scoundrels in the hen house.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Damn True
Bwahahaha! Oh whatever.

....and yes. It is required reading in CA public schools. Freshman year of H.S.

Honestly. I have no problem with any of this. I am not doing anything wrong or illegal. Why should I have anything to fear?

I think most people that are bitching and complaining are afraid their ability to acquire pot will be affected.
"****, I can't call my dealer."

Nah, I'd grow my own.

What hooked me was the line 'catching a criminal before they've committed a crime'. Basically thinking of committing a crime would be a crime (taking that thought to its logical conclusion, even thinking about thinking about a crime would therefore be a crime, ad nauseum).

So long as you are willing to follow every rule regardless of its justice you'll be fine but will you be free? Will disagreeing with the Bushs' policies becomea crime?

As a foreign national I now have far fewer rights in the US than a US ctizen has in the UK, I can be imprisoned without a fair trial and nobody needs to be told. I can vanish just like so many people did in Latin America....

Of course to you I'm probably morally deviant but as I have never committed a violent crime in my life am I dangerous?

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
am I dangerous?

There's an easy way to test it. C'mon over here and stand around in DC thinking bad thoughts. If you end up in jail next to some big fat guy named Cathy, then yes, you are.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
There's an easy way to test it. C'mon over here and stand around in DC thinking bad thoughts. If you end up in jail next to some big fat guy named Cathy, then yes, you are.

Not the most tempting offer I've had recently....

I'd hope I'd need to at least vocalise my bad thoughts before getting acquainted with the Cathys of the US penitentiary system but should saying that I think Dubya is a self-serving, corrupt, and dishonest warmonger and that maybe the Islamic world could have a legitimate beef with his policies be enough to get me into trouble?

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
Not the most tempting offer I've had recently....

I'd hope I'd need to at least vocalise my bad thoughts before getting acquainted with the Cathys of the US penitentiary system but should saying that I think Dubya is a self-serving, corrupt, and dishonest warmonger and that maybe the Islamic world could have a legitimate beef with his policies be enough to get me into trouble?

Heck, Berkeley college students do that fairly often (matter of fact, I think that's all they ever do) and they're doing just fine.

Although I think that the Islamic world having a legitimate beef with his policies is sort of like

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by fourgivn1


Although I think that the Islamic world having a legitimate beef with his policies is sort of like

Please elaborate...

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
Please elaborate...

Simple. I think that the U.S. (as well as others) has a legitimate beef with some of the policies that Islamic nations have. I don't think I need to elaborate any more than that....a lot of them should be obvious.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
Simple. I think that the U.S. (as well as others) has a legitimate beef with some of the policies that Islamic nations have. I don't think I need to elaborate any more than that....a lot of them should be obvious.

What school of debating does that response come from?

Just 'cos something seems obvious to you does not make it obvious to anyone else!

I even said please....