[Jm_]

People make off-the-wall claims like this and I want to punch them in the face:

I might see a dozen days out of the year where there is snow on the ground, however I've never really ridden in it. I'm also considerably faster on the fat bike over 29er HTs. A big portion of this is the cornering traction. Another plus is I still get the hardtail ride with the fat bike, but my body is less beat up after longer rides. If it never snowed another day here, I'd still stay on my fat bike.

Literally, the only way this is possible is if the guy is so incredibly slow it doesn't matter what kind of bike he rides, 20lb XC bike, 45lb DH bike, etc. There's just no way with that much rotating mass. When you hop on your 26/27.5/29 normal bike after the fat season here, it feels like you're on an e-bike and you just zoom ahead with every pedal stroke. You think you are going ludicrous speed uphill comparatively.

 

[StiHacka]

People make off-the-wall claims like this and I want to punch them in the face:



Literally, the only way this is possible is if the guy is so incredibly slow it doesn't matter what kind of bike he rides, 20lb XC bike, 45lb DH bike, etc. There's just no way with that much rotating mass. When you hop on your 26/27.5/29 normal bike after the fat season here, it feels like you're on an e-bike and you just zoom ahead with every pedal stroke. You think you are going ludicrous speed uphill comparatively.

Most of the guys here are on their brakes all the time when the trail is pointed down so I am not surprised at all. The better riders never choose a fattie over a trail bike unless they desire extra workout.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

The self-righteous is strong today.

 

['size]

The self-righteous is strong today.

today?

 

[rockofullr]

Going back to my experience on WT tires. What do you guys think about round versus square tire profile?

I've been running mostly Minions and High Rollers in 2.5" on 30mm rims for a long time and nothing else I've ridden has made me want to switch. They have a fairly square profile and I love the bite the shoulder lugs provide. I've always thought that an aggressive tire should look like a MX tire, square. But then when I go on Maxxis' website they are telling me this is bad??

 

[StiHacka]

Going back to my experience on WT tires. What do you guys think about round versus square tire profile?

I've been running mostly Minions and High Rollers in 2.5" on 30mm rims for a long time and nothing else I've ridden has made me want to switch. They have a fairly square profile and I love the bite the shoulder lugs provide. I've always thought that an aggressive tire should look like a MX tire, square. But then when I go on Maxxis' website they are telling me this is bad??

You are asking questions that might be suggesting self-righteous answers.

 

[rockofullr]

You are asking questions that might be suggesting self-righteous answers.

Possibly.....

If liking to rail turns without feeling your tire squirm under the pressure is self righteous then fuck me, I might be a self righteous dick.

Or maybe we're on the DH forum and if you like bouncing through the woods on balloon tires then fuck you

 

[slyfink]

bottom two seem ridiculous, mostly because of a too tall sidewall, or a sidewall fully exposed to cuts. So that leaves us with the top two. On the top example they forgot the following points: increased weight to increase sidewall strength, increased incidence of rim strikes due to lower air pressure.

 

[twenty666]

I've been running mostly Minions and High Rollers in 2.5" on 30mm rims for a long time and nothing else I've ridden has made me want to switch. They have a fairly square profile and I love the bite the shoulder lugs provide. I've always thought that an aggressive tire should look like a MX tire, square. But then when I go on Maxxis' website they are telling me this is bad??

[/QUOTE]


A square profile causes the shoulder lugs to engage at a shallow lean angle durning corning. This can make for a secure feeling, but when leaned hard you lose grip at a shallower angle than you would with a rounder profile. A rounder profile will allow for a much deeper lean angle and hold in extreme lean situations all they way to the point of dragging your bars. In a nut shell a a round profile will provide better corning when pushed hard, and more secure predictable drifting.

Square profile can feel like it corners better for some riders if lean angles are always shallow because the shoulder lugs get in on the action right away. This is a big reason so many loved their super wide rims with squared off tires before WT tires came out. More advanced level riders knew tire profiles were way off and kept their rims to more reasonable widths at least until WT tires came out.

 

[rockofullr]

A square profile causes the shoulder lugs to engage at a shallow lean angle durning corning. This can make for a secure feeling, but when leaned hard you lose grip at a shallower angle than you would with a rounder profile. A rounder profile will allow for a much deeper lean angle and hold in extreme lean situations all they way to the point of dragging your bars. In a nut shell a a round profile will provide better corning when pushed hard, and more secure predictable drifting.

I hear what you are saying but if that's true then why do the tire profiles on WC DH bro's bikes look so square. Maybe bar dragging levels of bike lean aren't ideal for going fast?

Some quick googling tells me that Rock Jesus runs 27mm rims. Winnarrrr is on 25mm rims. Heart is on 25mm rims. Interesting. Still a fair bit fatter than the 21mm rims Maxxis seems to be recommending for traditional tires.

 

[StiHacka]

I think that those Maxxis marketing pictures are a bunch of crapload and don't show the actual WT difference well. Why should the placement of the side knobs change how bulbous the cross section is? About the lean angle, isn't it the other way around? If you don't lean enough a very square tire, you engage the channel and the side knobs won't bite aggressively enough compared to a tire that has the channel significantly narrower. That is my personal suspicion and I am happy to be proven wrong.

 

[rockofullr]

I think that those Maxxis marketing pictures are a bunch of crapload

I believe all marketing diagrams I see on the internet. You opinion is invalid.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Running 21mm rim out front and a 29mm rim out back (ex721 and ex729, assuming the widths in the name). old 2.5'' nevs on both.

 

[twenty666]

I think that those Maxxis marketing pictures are a bunch of crapload and don't show the actual WT difference well. Why should the placement of the side knobs change how bulbous the cross section is? About the lean angle, isn't it the other way around? If you don't lean enough a very square tire, you engage the channel and the side knobs won't bite aggressively enough compared to a tire that has the channel significantly narrower. That is my personal suspicion and I am happy to be proven wrong.

Yes you still have to lean a square profile tire to transition through the "drift zone" between the center and shoulder lugs. That lean angle is shallow though, resulting in a shallow max lean angle too. Just because a wide rim makes the drift zone look wider doesn't mean you have to lean more.


It's counter intuitive, but a tire on a wide rim that wasn't designed for that width will be spread out and flatter. This gives the appearance of a wider drift zone, but effectively it has shrunk. This effective shrinking is because you hit the shoulder lugs as soon as you lean the bike over. The drift zone is the same size, but will feel smaller than if the tire was on a narrower rim. A Narrow rim effectively moves the shoulder lugs further away from the center lugs. Rounder profiles force you to lean way over to engage the shoulder lugs. This makes the drift zone feel wider even though it looks narrower. IMO, profile is more important than sidewall support, anti-burping.... I have nothing against wide rims, but compromising profile isn't smart. It's crazy how long it took for the industry to design tires around wider rims. I guess they were worried it would be a short lived trend like it was in the early 2000s?

 

[kidwoo]

preach it brother!!

 

[slimshady]

I'm running tubeless 2.4 EXO HR2s in 30mm ID rims and I haven't died yet. Previously ran the same tires in 23mm ID rims and I can tell you the jump to wider rims made for a much more supportive feeling when using the same pressure (25F/28R). Less squirming, better cornering. Although the profile has gotten squarer and the rolling speed decreased a bit.

 

[Inclag]

I'm planning on writing a reasonably detailed first look! first ride! review of a bike that's MODERN!!!!! compared to what I was previously riding once the mandated (sarcasm) embargo is lifted.

It has wide rims. My assessment is that there is more support. Not sure I can tell if that's a positive..... The tires are HR2 3C DD Max Terras. They are meh. Not Nevegal bad, but just meh. Definitely not anywhere near the corner grip or ability to lean as other offerings. I could lower the pressure to maybe help, but then we enter the 'tail chase' of foam inserts, pinch flatting, etc, etc. Wider tires are an option but I'm afraid that will mean vagueness and meh sidewall protection for weight purposes.

For me, the WildRock'r 2's are my benchmark in terms of performance/compromise when I do non DH biking. Round profile with big mf'ing and proper supported side knobs are the bee's knees.

Anyway, definitely not going to swap out wheels to narrower rims. Guess I'll ride the piss out of the HR2's until they get worn out....

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
Anyway, definitely not going to swap out wheels to narrower rims. Guess I'll ride the piss out of the HR2's until they get worn out....

I'm on stock 2.4 HR2s on my new bike and agree - just meh. And these aren't even MaxxWhatever, so the traction isn't even that great. But I can tell that the sidewalls aren't up to snuff on a couple rocky rides I've done this fall.

I, too, am waiting for them to wear out so I can put on a pair of Wild Rock'R2s on.

 

[twenty666]

I'm running tubeless 2.4 EXO HR2s in 30mm ID rims and I haven't died yet. Previously ran the same tires in 23mm ID rims and I can tell you the jump to wider rims made for a much more supportive feeling when using the same pressure (25F/28R). Less squirming, better cornering. Although the profile has gotten squarer and the rolling speed decreased a bit.

I've run those and the DHR 2.4 on 29mm rims. I prefer 25mm rims with those but didn't feel they were crazy squared off on 29mm. EXO's benefit quiet a bit from wider rims because they are so prone to casing role like all single plies. Don't take what I've been saying about profile as an anti wide rim stance. I'm just saying tire profile and rim width need to be dialed in together.

 

[slimshady]

I've run those and the DHR 2.4 on 29mm rims. I prefer 25mm rims with those but didn't feel they were crazy squared off on 29mm. EXO's benefit quiet a bit from wider rims because they are so prone to casing role like all single plies. Don't take what I've been saying about profile as an anti wide rim stance. I'm just saying tire profile and rim width need to be dialed in together.

Thanks for the feedback. My commentary pointed exactly to what you wrote, the wider rims do help with the "singleplyness" of the EXOs. With narrower rims I felt like they had too little of support when leaning hard in turns, and they got drifted by rocks too easily when pushing it in a straight line.

It's not the first time I hear the sweet spot for Maxxis 2.4s is 25-26 mm ID. I know for sure 23mm were too narrow for all accounts.

 

[twenty666]

Thanks for the feedback. My commentary pointed exactly to what you wrote, the wider rims do help with the "singleplyness" of the EXOs. With narrower rims I felt like they had too little of support when leaning hard in turns, and they got drifted by rocks too easily when pushing it in a straight line.

It's not the first time I hear the sweet spot for Maxxis 2.4s is 25-26 mm ID. I know for sure 23mm were too narrow for all accounts.

The industry has offered us a dizzying number of rim widths to choose from all to offer better support for thin casings.

All I want are casings around 1000 to 1100g between 2.3 and 2.5, that don't need super wide rims to not fold in the corners. Is that too much to ask? God damned bike industry wants to sell me balloon tires made from wet toilet paper on circus wheels. What a shit show.

 

[rockofullr]

God damned bike industry wants to sell me balloon tires made from wet toilet paper on circus wheels. What a shit show.

In their defense my girlfriend kinda liked the 27.5+ setup on the Pivot Switchblade she demoed. She's only been riding for about a year and said it was confidence inspiring. Probably what all the dentist say too

 

[slyfink]

The industry has offered us a dizzying number of rim widths to choose from all to offer better support for thin casings.

All I want are casings around 1000 to 1100g between 2.3 and 2.5, that don't need super wide rims to not fold in the corners. Is that too much to ask? God damned bike industry wants to sell me balloon tires made from wet toilet paper on circus wheels. What a shit show.

 

[toodles]

My new rig came with a 2.5WT Minion DHF on the front and a 2.3 DHF rear on a WTB i29. Not 100% sure on the WT feature at the moment - the profile looks good but there seems to be a vagueness from upright to lean, like a missing row of knobs or something. When it wears out, I'm tempted to trial a normal 2.3 and see if it works better. Maybe it requires a wider rim to work?

 

[twenty666]

In their defense my girlfriend kinda liked the 27.5+ setup on the Pivot Switchblade she demoed. She's only been riding for about a year and said it was confidence inspiring. Probably what all the dentist say too

I'm sure 27.5+ feels great to a beginner. The topic here is "what trail casings don't suck". Well, plus casings suck both the balls and the dick. Only trail casings that's don't suck balls are super gravity, double down, and advanced reinforced. Any of those casings in + size would weigh 1400g. Have fun pedaling that around. Been down that road in the early 2000's when 2.6 and up was popular. You know we dropped that shit for a reason and weight wasn't the only one. Just because + is paper thin now doesn't mean those sizes are any better. They don't bite because they are too floaty, they don't float on sand/snow because they are too skinny. What are you left with?

In the end all that matters is she's having fun, so fuck it. I'm just saying give me more heavy casings to choose from, in micro wheel size please, and everyone else can bounce around the woods all they want. I really don't give a fuck.

 

[rockofullr]

My new rig came with a 2.5WT Minion DHF on the front and a 2.3 DHF rear on a WTB i29. Not 100% sure on the WT feature at the moment - the profile looks good but there seems to be a vagueness from upright to lean, like a missing row of knobs or something. When it wears out, I'm tempted to trial a normal 2.3 and see if it works better. Maybe it requires a wider rim to work?

I rode same setup 2.5 WT Minions on a 30mm rim and it didn't feel good. It sounds like it's better on the 35 or 40 mm rim.

 

[Inclag]

Reasonable width (aka not 2.6") = Check
In principle damn near DH casing = Check
Good compounds = Check
Yuge and supportive looking side knobs = Check
Enduro in the name = Check...grumble....

Transition knob spacing/proximity to corner knobs = could be worse??

@kidwoo... thoughts?

https://www.mtb-mag.com/en/first-ride-the-new-michelin-wild-enduro/

 

['size]

Reasonable width (aka not 2.6") = Check
In principle damn near DH casing = Check
Good compounds = Check
Yuge and supportive looking side knobs = Check
Enduro in the name = Check...grumble....

Transition knob spacing/proximity to corner knobs = could be worse??

@kidwoo... thoughts?

https://www.mtb-mag.com/en/first-ride-the-new-michelin-wild-enduro/

kidwoo may be outside getting his 29er on...or snowmobile. i forget where he lives.
here's my 'i only have a GED' level of tireology thoughts.
first, why isn't there a decent actual picture of the tread pattern in that review? like close up and shit. anyway, the render looks like these areas could have been better. the wider center lugs encroach just a bit too far into the transition space. maybe push those together just a bit or into a wider single knob like the dhr ii? leading and braking edges and sipes seem ok. that's all i got. basically it looks like the big boy version of the wild am (maybe replacing it) so imagine what that tire rides like with bigger knobs. bottom line is i doubt these tires will keep michelin's new marquee rider from winning any enduro races and he in turn will help sell a lot of these tires, which is really the most important thing in sponsorsip relationship.

 

[kidwoo]

I just had back surgery so I'm just here to argue with gary.


I don't know why they space the sideknobs so far apart from each other. Looks pretty meh to me.

 

[Gary]

probably for mud sheddiness.

Get well soon bud.

 

[kidwoo]

Thanks!


On that tire though if it's got mud in mind, then all those little subknobs between the real ones are going to help hold it.

meh

 

[Gary]

I didn't say it was an even vaguely good design.
it looks shit.

Patience.
Other than that one decent tyre tread they come up with each decade Michelin aren't exacly renownned for making good mtb tyres and they've done this decades already.

 

[StiHacka]

Thanks!


On that tire though if it's got mud in mind, then all those little subknobs between the real ones are going to help hold it.

meh

If the tires are anything like the Force AM I accidentally ordered, the regular knobs will get torn off quickly so mud retention won't be a problem (unlike air retention).

 

[mykel]

I'll wait for a proper picture set, or preferably in realz, not just a crappy rendering.
Real life is always different than 'puter shit.
Will probably be worthy of a Woo "meh" but ya never know until its in yer hand.

 

[toodles]

I just had back surgery so I'm just here to argue with gary.

Heal up cunt.

After my luck with tyres, I've decided to just buy based on casing thickness. Even a bald slick with air in it is faster than the best tyre deflated. Actually, that might not be true but what the hell.

 

[rockofullr]

Lets add these to the list of trail bike casings that suck.

One of my riding buddies had a brand new pair out on it's first ride (the 29X2.4, 120 thread variety) and the rear did not survive. As a disclaimer this dude is a crusher and was trying to send it up some large sharp rocks at high speed and we had just aired down our tires to deal with slick roots.

 

['size]

don't all 29 trail bike casings suck? all that extra exposed sidewall from that yuge contact patch can't be good for not catching on things.

 

[rockofullr]

don't all 29 trail bike casings suck? all that extra exposed sidewall from that yuge contact patch can't be good for not catching on things.

Yeah I don't know or care since I don't ride 29ers. But this was a slice/puncture right in the middle of the tread so that probably means these tires are flimsy in 27.5 as well?? Maybe??

 

[slimshady]

Yeah I don't know or care since I don't ride 29ers. But this was a slice/puncture right in the middle of the tread so that probably means these tires are flimsy in 27.5 as well?? Maybe??

I have one in 27.5 and while I love the rubber compound, the Kevlar bead gave up in a side landing, resulting in a deformed casing. Not sturdy enough for a 210 lbs guy I guess.

 

[twenty666]

Thanks!


On that tire though if it's got mud in mind, then all those little subknobs between the real ones are going to help hold it.

meh

I was thinking the same thing. It looks like they are trying to mix wet and dry capabilities but what I see doesn't look like it would work great in either. Part of me wonders if they made those big spaced out shoulder lugs simply because they look totally badass. I would be surprised if Fabian Barrel had anything to do with this one. As far as Mich tires go, Fabian's Wild Rocker is the only tire worth a shit. They need to make him chief tire designer.