[profro]

I have thought about doing this before. It would be a fun project. The trick is to read the racers time as they cross the line. This could be difficult with RFID as usually it reads once the tag is in the vicinity so you have to get clever to increase the accuracy as it relates to racing.

The easiest would be a beam trip. The sell USB DAQ devices with TTL input for less than $100. You could sync the laptops (start and finish) and just have some custom written software to keep track of beam trips. The only trick then is to identify the rider with a specific beam trip. You could add RFID with this or you could just have a simple user input via keyboard. It would be best to build in some redundancy and have an array (2+) of beams at the start and finish. In my opinion it would be easy. Since I do this stuff for a living, if I had the parts in hand I'm pretty sure it would take less than a day to prototype one up.

At a minimum you would need for a start and stop system:

2 garage door laser beam thingys
power supplys for the beam thingys (probably 5, 12 or 24VDC)
2 usb DAQ devices
custom software

done.

I found some Sears garage door sensors for $19 and a large LED clock for $58 which could used as a display to count down racers on the start or to display finish time. But 2 laptops would be easier. You could use the screens to show finish time and to count down racers pretty easy.

 

[odinnn]

I have been thinking about making my own timing system for the last few years and this is what I have found out with my "limited" research.

The idea was to build a wireless standalone system that could be setup where ever I wanted and register times without too much input from the riders so they would be able to do lap after lap.

My first idea was to use a RFID sensor and a card or a tag that most people know from unlocking doors and such. That does not really work as most sensors that dont cost a small fortune only have a sensing range of few inches and poor reaction times (0.2-3 sec) so even though it would be able to register the rider passing by 5 feet away it would not know if he was 5 feet infront of the finish or 5 feet past. RFID works by using a magnetic field so it "senses" a big area. I would only imagin my self using RFID as a indentifyer at the start gate and finish, as in; rider stands in the start gate using the ski style plastic bar kidwoo talked about, swipes his RFID identifying him as the next rider to exit the gate. Then at the finish the rider would pass a photocell then identifying his pass with his RFID when he stops. But that will also prove to be a problem if used on trails that are riden by other riders that are not being timed as you have to be quick to identifying your self before some one else breaks the beam. Then I thought about linking up a numbers disply so the rider could see what his time was or a random generaded number he would pick out when he used his RFID, but that made the whole build alot more complicated.

I also thought about using keypads insted of RFID... I feel like I'm just starting to ramble so I'll stop now, but I have some ideas about wireless setup and such so if anyone wants to know...

 

[bizutch]

The way I have been advised for gravity for chip timing to work cheapest is to not worry about the equipemnt at the start and just have a trip sensor like a wand to count starts. Put in the times at the bottom on the one unit and the wand at the top keeps the times for each start. Then you can use a memory stick from the start down to sync the data from the start wand with the chip sensor at the finish.

I really want chip timing here in the south and have put in a lot of research in the back ground to make it all work, but cost and accuracy make for a very expensive endeavor. Plus if you want live timing, you have to have either a cable from start to finish or phenomenal wireless connection between start and finish, which I've NEVER seen.

 

[toodles]

Just running through a few ideas in my head and all of a sudden the Freelap gear doesn't look that expensive anymore haha.

The cheapest options wouldn't have immediate results. You'd use a synchronised datalogger top and bottom to register inputs and log the time a gate of beam was tripped. Unfortunately, you wouldn't know the riders times till you got the two devices together again, unless you had someone operating either and SMSing the trigger times to a timekeeper.

If you had volunteer time-keepers all you'd need is a start and finish gate that would trigger a lap time reading on a pair of synchronised stopwatches. That would be by far the the cheapest way to do it, but would require some non-competitors to help.

 

[canadmos]

Interesting stuff guys. I hope you all make something of this, it'd be fun to use at a much better price. Even if it is ghetto-rigged and just instructions on how to build some cheap units.

In terms of linking the top and bottom of a course that is being timed, instead of waiting for the two computers to be in the same location, couldn't you just tether them both into two cell phones and automatically email database entries to a third computer that calculates the times of each rider? Or just send it the second computer at the bottom of the course. You could have the start time arriving at the second computer before the rider even crosses the finish line.

 

[profro]

In terms of linking the top and bottom of a course that is being timed, instead of waiting for the two computers to be in the same location, couldn't you just tether them both into two cell phones and automatically email database entries to a third computer that calculates the times of each rider? Or just send it the second computer at the bottom of the course. You could have the start time arriving at the second computer before the rider even crosses the finish line.

Precisely. Pretty easy to do. Every one has cell phone and almost everyone has a laptop. The fun thing would be to build a iOS or Android app to do it all. Hmmmmm. I need to figure out out to read TTL inputs to a phone........

 

[jennag]

RFID timing.

Reverse hack it. I am sure the guys selling the "systems" as event timing are charging a big mark-up. It's all just industrial equipment re-purposed for events.

Figure out the de-coders and readers and find them from an industrial supply place way cheaper. Feed data into a laptop and yer done.

Chip timing sucks.
Ask anyone who scores road races, tri stuff or anything else where they normally get used.
The times are rarely accurate, sometimes the chips don't register at all.
The timing companies that use it almost always end up using hand-calculated times.
Expensive crap. Avoid.

This is what I do for a living...time all kinds of stuff, from National Championships and higher, like skiing where precision to the 1/1000 matters to competitors to mass participation where thousands of runners participate. Notice the difference, competitors vs participants.

Some of the stuff I've read in this post is plain wrong, and some is dead on.

First, there is a difference between RFID (tags cost .10-$1.00) and transponders $90+. As mentioned, MyLaps does everything from Formula 1, NASCAR, Cycling, to Olympic Games and MTB World Cup, and sure, it works. All of these events use transponders and you can't read them without MyLaps Gear. There are a few other companies out there that also have transponders, but in the motorized sports world, MyLaps is dominant.
There transponders (call ProChip) for the active (non motorized sports world) claim accuracy to 4/1000 so you can publish times out to about 1/100. But even with that accuracy, the transponders are generally only used for identification at high level events like Olympics or even Mtb World Cup. If you go look at the finish line of a MTB World Cup (XC or DH), there is a photocell there that actually records the time the front wheel passes the line and the transponder is just used to automatically identify the rider. You can (and we often do) do this easily do the same level of timing without the transponders. We use software to sort out the order, but there are devices recording times. You can also do it without the photocell and take the transponder time, but it won't be quite as accruate. It's all backed up with a photo finish camera if your smart.

You can use RFID (which I am differentiating from transponders) to IDENTIFY riders, but it won't be more precise than 1/10 so the best precision you should publish results to is the SECOND. Even if you figure out the readers and build your own system, as someone mentioned, and I know others who have done, the accuracy is garbage and the read rate is much lower than a transponder. The companies like MyLaps who have RFID (branded as ChampionChip and BibTag) or Chronotrack, Winning Time, AccuChip, etc, etc have developed specialized antennas that are more accurate and written fancy algorithms to determine the actual time a tag passes the center of the mat, but this is still very different to how a transponder works and still not as accurate as transponders. Even the accuracy of the above companies systems vary GREATLY. We test it against photocells and photofinish (line scan cameras) and they very WILDLY in their accuracy.

If you think you are going to use a COMPUTER to be the actually time base and record times at start or finish and actually time a race, as opposed to just manage data, you've obviously never used a computer and had it CRASH in the middle of anything; which basically means you've never used a computer. The time bases in computers also SUCK. Precision is lucky to be 1/10 of a second per hour but it depends on how busy they are doing other things. You should be using a TCQ (temperature compensated quartz) in an INDEPENDENT device, ideally with a printer. As an example, we use timers accurate to 1/125000 of a second per hour. Syncronization is another problem with computers. How do you know they are accurately synchronized? NTP? Yeah right. Cell phones? Forget it. Even if they are within 1 second, how do you know your cell provider doesn't resent the time in the middle of the run or race? Even if by .5 seconds, or a second, how do you know it didn't add or subtract time? YOU DON'T.

We have the ability to send data live remotely in ALL kinds of situations. We have GSM modems, 2.4 Ghz wireless appliances, proprietary wireless, and even hard wire. We can send TCP/IP Date, serial data, or even simple timing impulses. It all depends on the situation, the race, the clients needs, and of course, budget. If you think one solution will fit all situations, your done before you start.

Not all photocells are created equal, in fact, organizations like the International Skiing Federation, International Equestrian Federation and others stringently test the equipment used to time their events, not all equipment passes. UCI and USAC should do this, but the background of these organizations is in mass start events where order of finish is most important and not precision (like DH MTB). You would think with time trial discipline they would have rules, but it just doesn't matter to them, and the results aren't that close, even at the Olympic Games compared to sports like skiing where 1/100 often separates 2-3 racers.
Just look at the official results here:
http://www.london2012.com/cycling-road/event/men-time-trial/phase=crm011100/index.html
(about 1:09 separates the top three riders)
vs
Here:
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=AL&raceid=59529
.09 separates the top 3 skiers.

USAC Official REGULARLY certify results done by transponders, so whoever said that doesn't happen, has never been to a road race in Florida or even the Sea Otter Classic where all the cycling events are done with transponders.

We also use MULTIPLE redundant systems. Where there is one of anything, there is always a second one running as back-up. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong. Would you care if you missed one persons time? Two?

In the end, I love to read this stuff (a client actually sent it to me) and hope you guys build your system out, use it as a few races, and then please market it to a few events. It should be pretty good for business.

Good luck!

 

[IH8Rice]

MyLaps times F1??


edit: good sh!t btw

 

[Mr Lahey]

This is what I do for a living...time all kinds of stuff, from National Championships and higher, like skiing where precision to the 1/1000 matters to competitors to mass participation where thousands of runners participate. Notice the difference, competitors vs participants.

Some of the stuff I've read in this post is plain wrong, and some is dead on.

First, there is a difference between RFID (tags cost .10-$1.00) and transponders $90+. As mentioned, MyLaps does everything from Formula 1, NASCAR, Cycling, to Olympic Games and MTB World Cup, and sure, it works. All of these events use transponders and you can't read them without MyLaps Gear. There are a few other companies out there that also have transponders, but in the motorized sports world, MyLaps is dominant.
There transponders (call ProChip) for the active (non motorized sports world) claim accuracy to 4/1000 so you can publish times out to about 1/100. But even with that accuracy, the transponders are generally only used for identification at high level events like Olympics or even Mtb World Cup. If you go look at the finish line of a MTB World Cup (XC or DH), there is a photocell there that actually records the time the front wheel passes the line and the transponder is just used to automatically identify the rider. You can (and we often do) do this easily do the same level of timing without the transponders. We use software to sort out the order, but there are devices recording times. You can also do it without the photocell and take the transponder time, but it won't be quite as accruate. It's all backed up with a photo finish camera if your smart.

You can use RFID (which I am differentiating from transponders) to IDENTIFY riders, but it won't be more precise than 1/10 so the best precision you should publish results to is the SECOND. Even if you figure out the readers and build your own system, as someone mentioned, and I know others who have done, the accuracy is garbage and the read rate is much lower than a transponder. The companies like MyLaps who have RFID (branded as ChampionChip and BibTag) or Chronotrack, Winning Time, AccuChip, etc, etc have developed specialized antennas that are more accurate and written fancy algorithms to determine the actual time a tag passes the center of the mat, but this is still very different to how a transponder works and still not as accurate as transponders. Even the accuracy of the above companies systems vary GREATLY. We test it against photocells and photofinish (line scan cameras) and they very WILDLY in their accuracy.

If you think you are going to use a COMPUTER to be the actually time base and record times at start or finish and actually time a race, as opposed to just manage data, you've obviously never used a computer and had it CRASH in the middle of anything; which basically means you've never used a computer. The time bases in computers also SUCK. Precision is lucky to be 1/10 of a second per hour but it depends on how busy they are doing other things. You should be using a TCQ (temperature compensated quartz) in an INDEPENDENT device, ideally with a printer. As an example, we use timers accurate to 1/125000 of a second per hour. Syncronization is another problem with computers. How do you know they are accurately synchronized? NTP? Yeah right. Cell phones? Forget it. Even if they are within 1 second, how do you know your cell provider doesn't resent the time in the middle of the run or race? Even if by .5 seconds, or a second, how do you know it didn't add or subtract time? YOU DON'T.

We have the ability to send data live remotely in ALL kinds of situations. We have GSM modems, 2.4 Ghz wireless appliances, proprietary wireless, and even hard wire. We can send TCP/IP Date, serial data, or even simple timing impulses. It all depends on the situation, the race, the clients needs, and of course, budget. If you think one solution will fit all situations, your done before you start.

Not all photocells are created equal, in fact, organizations like the International Skiing Federation, International Equestrian Federation and others stringently test the equipment used to time their events, not all equipment passes. UCI and USAC should do this, but the background of these organizations is in mass start events where order of finish is most important and not precision (like DH MTB). You would think with time trial discipline they would have rules, but it just doesn't matter to them, and the results aren't that close, even at the Olympic Games compared to sports like skiing where 1/100 often separates 2-3 racers.
Just look at the official results here:
http://www.london2012.com/cycling-road/event/men-time-trial/phase=crm011100/index.html
(about 1:09 separates the top three riders)
vs
Here:
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=AL&raceid=59529
.09 separates the top 3 skiers.

USAC Official REGULARLY certify results done by transponders, so whoever said that doesn't happen, has never been to a road race in Florida or even the Sea Otter Classic where all the cycling events are done with transponders.

We also use MULTIPLE redundant systems. Where there is one of anything, there is always a second one running as back-up. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong. Would you care if you missed one persons time? Two?

In the end, I love to read this stuff (a client actually sent it to me) and hope you guys build your system out, use it as a few races, and then please market it to a few events. It should be pretty good for business.

Good luck!

I think the point of this was an inexpensive "good times" way of comparing your time to that of your friends. In the case of someone coming up that close I would imagine people they would rather double up on another run, drink a beer together, or laugh it off. I doubt they would be interested in checking out your multiple redundant systems, dvr photos, etc.

"participants vs competitors" as you noted.

 

[jennag]

I think the point of this was an inexpensive "good times" way of comparing your time to that of your friends. In the case of someone coming up that close I would imagine people they would rather double up on another run, drink a beer together, or laugh it off. I doubt they would be interested in checking out your multiple redundant systems, dvr photos, etc.

"participants vs competitors" as you noted.

It depends on which post you're referring too...more than a few posts referred to timing races with these ideas...

How much do you guys spend on these bikes again??

If you're just looking to compare times with friends, buy a decent GPS. You can:
1. Know withing about 1 second what time you left the start (within a few fee) and what time you arrived at the finish, within a few feet.
2. You can upload your runs later, compare SECTIONS. even. I use one for other sports to track my progress, like running, and I can look where I went fast, where I went slow, right on a google earth map...

Just buy something you can set to do saves more often. It will use batteries up faster, but still do a darn good job. You can probably get a motorcycle / handlebar ram mount pretty easily and then be obsessed with how fast you are going at any given point on the run....

Oh, and for the F1 question, most certainly MyLaps transponders and decoders are used on at least a few tracks (with photocells and photofinish) at F1:
http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/B2B/car/system/pro_solutions

 

[Mr Lahey]

It depends on which post you're referring too...more than a few posts referred to timing races with these ideas...

How much do you guys spend on these bikes again??

If you're just looking to compare times with friends, buy a decent GPS. You can:
1. Know withing about 1 second what time you left the start (within a few fee) and what time you arrived at the finish, within a few feet.
2. You can upload your runs later, compare SECTIONS. even. I use one for other sports to track my progress, like running, and I can look where I went fast, where I went slow, right on a google earth map...

Just buy something you can set to do saves more often. It will use batteries up faster, but still do a darn good job. You can probably get a motorcycle / handlebar ram mount pretty easily and then be obsessed with how fast you are going at any given point on the run....

Oh, and for the F1 question, most certainly MyLaps transponders and decoders are used on at least a few tracks (with photocells and photofinish) at F1:
http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/B2B/car/system/pro_solutions

Edited out some beers from last night.

 

[kidwoo]

Hell yeah. Thanks for all the info man!

The GPS route isn't happening though. There is FAR FAR FAR too much shlt talking combined with close matched talent in the circles where this will be used to rely on accuracy in the seconds.

You got me doing some homework now. Much appreciated.

 

[wood booger]

RFID was used at the Downieville All Mtn World Rainbow Stripes Pride Championships this weekend with times down to 1/10 second.

More importantly, how does one make the invite list for these 7 mile DH "rides" ?

 

[samdemo]

I wonder if this could be made to work?
http://slipangleracing.com/index.html
It's designed for lap type racing but has the ability to do splits. With a price of $55 for a timer and transmitter and additional transmitters only $10, it could be worth trying out.

 

[Pslide]

I wonder if this could be made to work?
http://slipangleracing.com/index.html
It's designed for lap type racing but has the ability to do splits. With a price of $55 for a timer and transmitter and additional transmitters only $10, it could be worth trying out.

Great googlymoogly, some one has finally done it!

 

[shirk007]

I wonder if this could be made to work?
http://slipangleracing.com/index.html
It's designed for lap type racing but has the ability to do splits. With a price of $55 for a timer and transmitter and additional transmitters only $10, it could be worth trying out.

That would work if you always had the same group of guys and they all purchase a beacon ahead of time.

Building an inexpensive light beam system would be better.

 

[bizutch]

jennag just busted a bigger bubble than the carbon demo ever made.

Dear jennag, please time our races. They are started by a guy with a stop watch "synced" to the photocell at the bottom. Anybody within 3 seconds of each other could have won at any point with this system and yet all the local guys around here are fine with it. It drives me nuts.

I'm the kind of guy that definitively wants to know for certain who stomped who at all times.

 

[kidwoo]

More importantly, how does one make the invite list for these 7 mile DH "rides" ?

Bring whiskey.

 

[ride]

Hey Jennag, check your PM's please...

 

[profro]

If you think you are going to use a COMPUTER to be the actually time base and record times at start or finish and actually time a race, as opposed to just manage data, you've obviously never used a computer and had it CRASH in the middle of anything; which basically means you've never used a computer. The time bases in computers also SUCK. Precision is lucky to be 1/10 of a second per hour but it depends on how busy they are doing other things. You should be using a TCQ (temperature compensated quartz) in an INDEPENDENT device, ideally with a printer. As an example, we use timers accurate to 1/125000 of a second per hour. Syncronization is another problem with computers. How do you know they are accurately synchronized? NTP? Yeah right. Cell phones? Forget it. Even if they are within 1 second, how do you know your cell provider doesn't resent the time in the middle of the run or race? Even if by .5 seconds, or a second, how do you know it didn't add or subtract time? YOU DON'T.

As said before, I don't think Kidwoo was trying to provide scoring at the next world cup. Furthermore we were not talking about using the cell phone for timing, I suggested that you could use the cell phone as a means to tie both computer via the internet. Sending text data (which could include rider start times) is pretty easy. Of course the programmer would need to build in redundancy to be effective. One final note, instead of computers you can use embedded controller which work either on FPGA or use a real-time OS can greatly reduce the Windows factor, but then again we were not talking about NIST traceable time, but an effective and simple means to record bro races.

2 embedded controllers can sync clock tics as start time via a common trigger when both controllers are local. Then they can be split up, one to the start and one to the finish. At the end of the race they can be rejoined and share data to calculate race times. While accuracy could be increased this way as does cost. The embedded controllers I use at $2000-7000 each depending on I/O mudules.

 

[shirk007]

With the amount of open source stuff being built using arduino's this should be do-able on a budget.

Look into the DIY drone world for communications over a long range wirelessly via arduino.

Something like this should be able to sync up your top and bottom triggers to your timing source.

http://store.rfdesign.com.au/rfd-900-radio-modem/

Would love to see a group project come together on an inexpensive accurate timing system.

 

[Shoope1]

good info. Anything accomplished with this the last few months?

 

[Brian_Agee]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I bet I could write a program to read RFID tags with a USBreader in a few minutes. Not sure what a simple reader and tags cost?????

Furthermore using some garage door safety beam lights to start and stop the timing would be simple. A PC at the top to record the start time and a PC at the bottom to record stop time the subtract. You could even ditch the start setup and go on synchronized clock start.

Pretty easy. They make USB daq devices for cheap. I beat I could find one around here and send it to you.

I may have written the program you're talking about.
I use the Motorola FX9500 or FX7400 as the main reader but you can also just use the USB powered Thinkify TR200 if you want.

Check it out: www.AgeeRaceTiming.com
YouTube: