It's not all about riding at all. At the World Cup level, it's about budgets and putting on a worthwhile event. 6 women and 30 men, a pitiful amount of spectators and no passing, in the dark...all for $200 000 USD, is NOT a worthwhile event.
What's up with 4x getting canned?!?!??!
- Thread starter ZoRo
- Start date
Very true, but the problem, as being said further down, is that building proper infrastructure for 4x racing is a costly venture. Granted most of the 4x guys train on DH runs and BMX tracks, proper permanent 4x venues do not get much traffic. Just look at the Bromont 4x track, it's a good example. On a good weekend day, you will maybe see 10 peeps riding on it, max. Most people are affraid of the big gaps, speedy rythm sections, etc... And when you are used to rip on full on DH bike, riding a hardtail full blast can be quite intimidating.
On another note, I wonder if the UCI can really cancel 4x completely without any proper warnings the year before. Most 4x riders (top 10 guys at least), are full on sponsored riders and cannot drop their sponsors like that no warning in January. They would crush a couple of careers right there. I know most of the top guys can race BMX and Supercross BMX, but let's face it, are any of those guys, except Graves, strong enough to challenge the Strombergs, Willoughby, Young, Willers, etc...????
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It's true, but more so for events held here in North-America. In Europe they get huge turnouts for qualifying at least in the men's category. But then again, you can't justify coming here in North-America and loose a bunch of $$ over an unsuccesful event.
Not at the world cup level they don't. I've been to every single gravity world cup for the last 5+ years, and a whole bunch before then. Turn out for 4x is worse every single year, even at MSA where duel (not dual) used to be a legendary event back in 97/98.
A few world cup rounds get good turn outs for 4x, but the ones who do require no work at all for spectators to get to... Schladming for example.
Made for TV/competition slalom venue. Under the lights, huge finish area and it is literally smack dab in the middle of town. A farmer's market would get a bigger turnout still. Maribor, also pretty much right downtown in a huge metropolitan city. (Think Mt Royal in Montreal). It had a pathetic amount of spectators the last 2 years. 3 years ago it was massive crowds, but horrendous follow the leader "racing" for the most part.
In any case, at the World Cup level it isn't about having fun. It's 1 - the premiere events in our sport, and 2 - a business. Wasting huge amounts of money on small amounts of riders is not economically viable. 6 figures for under 100 riders in europe, vs nowhere near that much on the XC and DH courses, which each see upwards of 300 riders competing.
Would be an interesting situation about 10 guys would find themselves in if 4X is done. I think Graves and Prokop, Rinderknecht, Slavik and maybe a few others have easily proved they are capable of being right their with the worlds best BMXers. Easily. We had this debate before on a thread in here, that basically the level of the top riders in 4x is below that of BMX. Well that is certainly not true. From what I saw at the Frejus SX at the weekend, a huge amount of the top 64 BMXers need some serious fvukin' lessons on cornering on dirt, there where countless washouts in turn 2. Tarmac corners have ruined a generation of riders, softies!
So yeah 4-6 guys and a few of the regular 4x girls (with the exception of Anneke) could make a full-time switch to BMX, but would their current sponsors be so keen? Wonder how Yeti will feel if it does get dropped. Anyway from what I hear it ain't gonna happen but who knows. Graves' is probably reading this **** wanting to squeez some skulls haha. Well at least some of give half a **** I suppose.
Jared could easily go back to DH and do well if he concentrated on it, or head to BMX and also do well. He is a friggin' machine.
One of the worlds best cyclist ever? He could go to track and probably be bored outta his mind and get some medals!
I'm not so sure about the 4x guys necessarily being that good in BMX straight up. Top level Supercross BMX is CRAZY competitive. It would be interesting none of the less.
Would be good to see Graves shime in here like he did for the other 4x thread. Or Joost, or the other top 4x guys. Maybe they know things we ought to know!!
But to save money you could hold a DH race down 1/2 the XC course. Or send the XC racers down the DH course for 1/2 of their track
2 different sets of bike skills, one course. You can also hold SuperD on the same tracks. So race SuperD with your 4X bike? I'm not really sure where these comparisons ever really go honestly. But I had no idea the courses were that expensive. Wholly crap. I can see why they'd get rid of it based on economic grounds alone.
I've said it before G, and I'll say it again... bring KIS back! To this day better than anything I've seen in the 11 years since.
Em, well Prokop made it to the semis pretty easy in Frejus on Saturday, then got cleaned out in the last turn by a tarmac berm lover! Graves has won an SX and more then one ABA AA pro race and Rinderknecht has been in more then one SX final too, not sure about Slavik, Winchman or others, Dan Atherton would like to be right there in SX, but it hasn't happened for whatever reason, not enough something or other maybe hahha!
Looks like there will be no more use for the 4x bike.
Was just told about this thread earlier today and thought I would come on here and clear all this up.
Confirmed, 4X next year IS happening. This has been confirmed by UCI and IMTTO this afternoon.
Scanning through this thread quickly now, there are alot of points of view that are inaccurate and do need clearing up. I will look over it all in detail later and answer some of the questions and points of view that have been raised.
Just to confirm once more. 4X WILL BE IN THE WORLD CUP AND WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AGAIN NEXT YEAR.
Scott Beaumont.
Confirmed, 4X next year IS happening. This has been confirmed by UCI and IMTTO this afternoon.
Scanning through this thread quickly now, there are alot of points of view that are inaccurate and do need clearing up. I will look over it all in detail later and answer some of the questions and points of view that have been raised.
Just to confirm once more. 4X WILL BE IN THE WORLD CUP AND WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AGAIN NEXT YEAR.
Scott Beaumont.
For certain, Leogang, Val Di Sole and Mont St Anne will use their permanent tracks with small (cheap tweaks). This will cost very little.
Fort William organisers told me at the London Cycle show at the weekend that Fort William track improvements will happen this winter and I will hopefully be involved with those.
I have no information on Pietermaritzburg or Windham.
Windhams track this year was great. I assume they kept it for next year??? If they did not, it is not the fault of '4X'. The organisers choose weather to keep the track or destroy it.
Most venues now have permanent tracks.Therefore the costs are one off and not repeated each year.
With regards to the tracks, Very few riders opinions are asked by the media on their thoughts regarding the tracks. The vast majority of riders love the tracks the way they are.
Fort William organisers told me at the London Cycle show at the weekend that Fort William track improvements will happen this winter and I will hopefully be involved with those.
I have no information on Pietermaritzburg or Windham.
Windhams track this year was great. I assume they kept it for next year??? If they did not, it is not the fault of '4X'. The organisers choose weather to keep the track or destroy it.
Most venues now have permanent tracks.Therefore the costs are one off and not repeated each year.
With regards to the tracks, Very few riders opinions are asked by the media on their thoughts regarding the tracks. The vast majority of riders love the tracks the way they are.
Does Jared actually want to 'can' 4X and go back to DH? Does he want to 'can' 4X and go to BMX.
Or is he happy racing 4X ???
Did anyone ask him or any other riders if they want to get rid of 4X and race DH!!??
Only 2-3 riders now try to race DH and 4X. Everyone else has made the choice to race 4X. Not DH.
Of the 300 or so male riders who entered each European World Cup last year, between 166 - 216 entered DH, and between 64 and 120 entered 4X. (These numbers go up and down at each round.)
That simply equates to around a third of all male riders at every European World Cup have chosen 4X over DH. This number has steadily increased from around 20% 2 years ago. DH has levelled off and does not attract many more than 200 riders at World Cups now in Europe, whereas 4X has steadily risen in the past 2 years.
At Windham 29% of the total gravity male riders were there just for 4X, just below a third.
These are facts not guesses taken from qualifying results in 2010.
Hooray for facts!
Final fact of the night.
1,580 male riders took part in gravity events in the 2010 World Cup.
Of those 1,580 males, 496 entered 4X World Cups.
That equates to 31.3% of all gravity riders at World Cups last year chose 4X. Just 2.0% short of a third of all riders.
The sport is growing year on year. It will increase again next year.
1,580 male riders took part in gravity events in the 2010 World Cup.
Of those 1,580 males, 496 entered 4X World Cups.
That equates to 31.3% of all gravity riders at World Cups last year chose 4X. Just 2.0% short of a third of all riders.
The sport is growing year on year. It will increase again next year.
On a roll now.
In the women's:
There were 273 female entries in gravity events in 2010.
Of those a total of 95 entered 4X.
That means that 4X women made up 34.7% of the total female entries in gravity in 2010.
In the women's:
There were 273 female entries in gravity events in 2010.
Of those a total of 95 entered 4X.
That means that 4X women made up 34.7% of the total female entries in gravity in 2010.
Scott/Boom Boom, thanks for chiming in with some proper information. I started the thread based on some rumors (though Stikman, Sven M., have more insights about what's going on than most of us...), I know, but I just couldn't let it pass by, as I find 4x is the most compelling interesting of the mtb disciplines out there. I also race it at the national level so I have an interest in the courses/design too.
Again, nothing better than to have the truth from a reliable source. The numbers you put forward also showed what I thought about the euro rounds, and even Windham.
Transcend has a point though when he says they aren't necessarily making heaps of money over the 4x gig. Nevertheless, it can just, IMO, be better year after year, as the kooks and bugs get worked out so that the finished product gets better and better. Furthermore, I'd be interested to see if DH really racks up better number profit wise for the UCI??
Again, nothing better than to have the truth from a reliable source. The numbers you put forward also showed what I thought about the euro rounds, and even Windham.
Transcend has a point though when he says they aren't necessarily making heaps of money over the 4x gig. Nevertheless, it can just, IMO, be better year after year, as the kooks and bugs get worked out so that the finished product gets better and better. Furthermore, I'd be interested to see if DH really racks up better number profit wise for the UCI??
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boomboom…
As long as we are talking 'facts'
I wish I could post the 4X TV and freecaster ratings as compared to DH…but I am not allowed to…its appalling how few watch the 4X stuff, especially compared to cost to build a track…not to mention anyone who watches is solely watching for the crashes it seems?
Define 'growing'? just more participants means its a success?
We sent a sh1t ton more troops to afghanistan too…just because you throw more sh1t on a wall, doesn't mean it should stick
As long as we are talking 'facts'
I wish I could post the 4X TV and freecaster ratings as compared to DH…but I am not allowed to…its appalling how few watch the 4X stuff, especially compared to cost to build a track…not to mention anyone who watches is solely watching for the crashes it seems?
Define 'growing'? just more participants means its a success?
We sent a sh1t ton more troops to afghanistan too…just because you throw more sh1t on a wall, doesn't mean it should stick
In my area i have seen interest in 4x go from 0 to people being interested, watching and talking about racing. I think starting out 4x was misunderstood as the bastard child of supercross and slalom to most of the mountain bike community. Without going to a race and watching it it was hard to get a feel for it. Since Freecaster has started broadcasting the races interest has picked up, and im sure viewers have picked up as well. I think 4x is on the verge of winning the public over, but we shall see
I was wondering if some of the people in the know could clear something up for me.
As lots of people have pointed out, the tracks in 4X appear to/have changed over the last few seasons.
So maybe i missed it but has anyone said WHY they have changed? I mean, was it rider imput or was it the course designers that decided this was the way it should go?
I mean, I am only young(19) and have only been into DH and 4X for a couple of years, but i remember watching earthed 5 and being amazed at the Vigo 4X track in particular. it looked gnarly as hell and made for some awesome racing. or maybe that was down to some awesome camera work, i dont know. Either way, it looked savage.
Alex
As lots of people have pointed out, the tracks in 4X appear to/have changed over the last few seasons.
So maybe i missed it but has anyone said WHY they have changed? I mean, was it rider imput or was it the course designers that decided this was the way it should go?
I mean, I am only young(19) and have only been into DH and 4X for a couple of years, but i remember watching earthed 5 and being amazed at the Vigo 4X track in particular. it looked gnarly as hell and made for some awesome racing. or maybe that was down to some awesome camera work, i dont know. Either way, it looked savage.
Alex
i think the replay views will still give us a good idea.. Windham 4x replay= 12,700, Windham DH replay=40,120
When discussing numbers for WC 4x and DH, I think it is important to note that 4x requires nothing more than a Elite License. While DH requires 20 UCI points to enter. I know a lot of the guys that raced 4x at Windham would have rather been racing DH but just didn't have the points.
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I think the worst thing that happened to 4x this year was the uci banning any filming of wc 4x finals so the likes of Dirt have been unable to mix up some top notch videos to capture the hype and feel of the races and build enthusiasm around the discipline which was very much there last year. Not everyone wants to sit through the live stuff (I do though hehe) but there's no highlight reel allowed to be shown anywhere so people just wont bother sadly
Hmm with 4x gone WC's should have 2 day format. Saturday and Sunday races, best combined time wins. A lot more action and a bit more drama. With some improved camera coverage, and a little more work on the tracks I wouldn't be surprised if I was watching DH on ESPN in ten yrs........Woot!
try reading the thread first...
Maybe if I tweet that the UCI is canceling DHI for 2011, we can get Peaty and Sam H to post.
You mean about 4x being cancelled? Certainly sad
Excuse me but I couldn't help but be excited about the possible oppurtunities that this loss could provide to the WC venue now that there is some money and time freed up. Sorry for trying to bring this to light, please continue with your bantering about what would of could of should of blah blah blah.
no, this one:You mean about 4x being cancelled? Certainly sad
Excuse me but I couldn't help but be excited about the possible oppurtunities that this loss could provide to the WC venue now that there is some money and time freed up. Sorry for trying to bring this to light, please continue with your bantering about what would of could of should of blah blah blah.
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3532797&postcount=55
Hell yeah man! Glad to hear it. I love watching those races.
Well that's not fair, we had to keep refreshing to get it to play
Windham was actually the first DH I really bothered to watch. I watch all the 4X, but watching DH just doesn't do it for me yet.
x2
its a fairly reasonable budget.
earth moving is EXPENSIVE. we had a bmx track built a few years ago, and the budget was about 150k (not including land) for a 700ft long course with 8ft tall gate, 2 big doubles, a triple. 7ft tall berms and a rythm section of 3 small doubles...
when i saw some of the 4x tracks, i was like HOLY **** that a hell lot of bulldozer`s scoops