[SkaredShtles]

someone gets it.

I neglected to mention that for a *lot* of people it actually is a more pragmatic choice to become a hypocritical NIMBY - I mean, who *really* wants their little slice of heaven to change?

I hear people from other places complaining about the "sprawl" here in the Denver area. And yet they have theirs already, so to Hell with those who might like to migrate here.

I don't like sprawl beyond what was here the moment I moved in...... Everyone *else* should live in high-density housing.

-S.S.-

 

[narlus]

your electricity might be coming from high-sulphur coal burning plants in the midwest, but mine comes from a clean wind farm in northern idaho.

 

[dh girlie]

Every time you guys say 'NIMBY' I imagine you swirlin your head in circles with your hands fisted on your hips...

 

[Ridemonkey]

I think you all are the clueless ones. Lets look at Boulder again. No growth boundary, no exceptions. That's unique in America. 99% of cities can become sprawling nightmares, so why not have one that isn't? Yes, property values skyrocket. So people thinking of moving there give it some thought - is it more important for me to have a cheap house or live in a certain kind of unique community.

Regulating growth is not about excluding newcomers. It is about maintaining community standards. 99% of America doesn't care about that, or doesn't get it. Boulder gets it. Bend doesn't. We would simply like Bend to act to maintain community standards. If people still want to come, then so be it.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip> is it more important for me to have a cheap house or live in a certain kind of unique community.

I guess if you consider a community full of overeducated rich white people "unique"...........

-S.S.-

joking... I'm *joking*.....

 

[Ridemonkey]

If that's all you see there, perhaps you should spend more time.

I guess if you consider a community full of overeducated rich white people "unique"...........

-S.S.-

joking... I'm *joking*.....

 

[narlus]

I think you all are the clueless ones. Lets look at Boulder again. No growth boundary, no exceptions. That's unique in America. 99% of cities can become sprawling nightmares, so why not have one that isn't? Yes, property values skyrocket. So people thinking of moving there give it some thought - is it more important for me to have a cheap house or live in a certain kind of unique community.

Regulating growth is not about excluding newcomers. It is about maintaining community standards. 99% of America doesn't care about that, or doesn't get it. Boulder gets it. Bend doesn't. We would simply like Bend to act to maintain community standards. If people still want to come, then so be it.

i must admit ignorance to Boulder (ate pizza there one night when i was staying in Denver, but that's been about my exposure to the area), but you must admit that the simple laws of supply and demand dictate prices. if the supply (growth expansion) is curtailed, prices increase. sounds like what happened to Boulder. i'm curious as to the extent and allotment of subsized housing? how long can one live in subsized housing, if one is lucky enough to qualify? and what are the qualifications?

again, if you want Bend to adopt the cty planning stragety of Boulder, what steps are you taking to get that done? or will someone else take the ball and run with it? because most of the city planners will try to balance industry and residences. boulder's got the University as a big draw, but what other businesses are based there?

i personally agree that sprawl is NOT the answer, but i don't see away around its inexorable spread.

 

[N8 v2.0]

your electricity might be coming from high-sulphur coal burning plants in the midwest, but mine comes from a clean wind farm in northern idaho.

I'll bet the power at your house is produced by coal/gas or nuke... unless you are disconnected from the grid and produce your own.

 

[Ridemonkey]

how long can one live in subsized housing, if one is lucky enough to qualify? and what are the qualifications?

again, if you want Bend to adopt the cty planning stragety of Boulder, what steps are you taking to get that done? or will someone else take the ball and run with it? because most of the city planners will try to balance industry and residences. boulder's got the University as a big draw, but what other businesses are based there?

i personally agree that sprawl is NOT the answer, but i don't see away around its inexorable spread.

I don't know about subsidized rentals in Boulder, but I think a certain percentage of all new housing must be available for purchase in a low income program. I think you must have your name on a list for years to get in on one of these deals - but if you love the community and plan on making it your home then that shouldn't be a problem. It's a unique place to live, and a lot of people dig that.

I'm doing nothing about the situation in Bend and I don't plan to. There is no large university here to balance the population with the upper middle class wave of people that are moving here. The people that are moving here certainly don't give a crap about the kind of community standards I am talking about. I am only pointing out that the observations in this thread about the newcomer wanting to exclude more newcomers is not such a simple argument. If it's a matter of community values then you can't call people hypocritical for wanting to see change.

What is wrong for the recent California transplant to want to see:

-Growth boundaries
-Public transportation
-Public policy created for all citizens

Just because a noob wants these things doesn't mean that they want to close the doors behind them.

Bend is just becoming a community that I am at odds with. I don't care about it enough to become an activist in the situation when I could just move away at some point and be perfectly content.

 

[narlus]

N8, it was a joke. these things tend to get lost in translation, though.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I don't know about subsidized rentals in Boulder, but I think a certain percentage of all new housing must be available for purchase in a low income program. I think you must have your name on a list for years to get in on one of these deals - but if you love the community and plan on making it your home then that shouldn't be a problem. It's a unique place to live, and a lot of people dig that.

I'm doing nothing about the situation in Bend and I don't plan to. There is no large university here to balance the population with the upper middle class wave of people that are moving here. The people that are moving here certainly don't give a crap about the kind of community standards I am talking about. I am only pointing out that the observations in this thread about the newcomer wanting to exclude more newcomers is not such a simple argument. If it's a matter of community values then you can't call people hypocritical for wanting to see change.

What is wrong for the recent California transplant to want to see:

-Growth boundaries
-Public transportation
-Public policy created for all citizens

Just because a noob wants these things doesn't mean that they want to close the doors behind them.

Bend is just becoming a community that I am at odds with. I don't care about it enough to become an activist in the situation when I could just move away at some point and be perfectly content.

So Bend is becoming just like all the over priced, over populated, over regulated cities that the noobs left Cali for then?

 

[N8 v2.0]

N8, it was a joke. these things tend to get lost in translation, though.

I was gonna post this:

*


*Courtsey of S.S.

 

[Ridemonkey]

So Bend is becoming just like all the over priced, over populated, over regulated cities that the noobs left Cali for then?

I would call it under-regulated. I've lived in Colorado so I've never complained about prices in Bend. I can't really respond to this one liner because it really has nothing to do with my arguments.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Another example.

Wal Mart will be building their second facility here, a Super Center. Boulder has repeatedly denied allowing Wal Mart opening a store in their city. These kinds of things matter to me.

 

[SkaredShtles]

If that's all you see there, perhaps you should spend more time.

Joking...... I was joking.....

I've been to Boulder a few times. It is an expensive city surrounded by sprawl..... <shrug>

-S.S.-

 

[narlus]

I'm doing nothing about the situation in Bend and I don't plan to. There is no large university here to balance the population with the upper middle class wave of people that are moving here. The people that are moving here certainly don't give a crap about the kind of community standards I am talking about. I am only pointing out that the observations in this thread about the newcomer wanting to exclude more newcomers is not such a simple argument. If it's a matter of community values then you can't call people hypocritical for wanting to see change.

What is wrong for the recent California transplant to want to see:

-Growth boundaries
-Public transportation
-Public policy created for all citizens

Just because a noob wants these things doesn't mean that they want to close the doors behind them.

so if the people who are moving to Bend aren't the same people who want to limit growth, provide public transport infrastructure and get involved w/ the public policy planning, then who's gonna do it? that's my point. you can do one of 3 things:

1) bitch about it
2) leave
3) get involved.

so far i've got Heidi down for a #1, and you for a #2.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Another example.

Wal Mart will be building their second facility here, a Super Center. Boulder has repeatedly denied allowing Wal Mart opening a store in their city. These kinds of things matter to me.

So they open one in Louisville, Superior, Broomfield, and Lafayette. Then Boulder residents can leave Boulder and shop at Wal Mart without actually *having* a Wal Mart in the city limits.

I mean, I dislike Wal Mart too, but it's just a store that sells cheap crap. And people want their crap cheap.

-S.S.-

 

[SkaredShtles]

so if the people who are moving to Bend aren't the same people who want to limit growth, provide public transport infrastructure and get involved w/ the public policy planning, then who's gonna do it? that's my point. you can do one of 3 things:

1) bitch about it
2) leave
3) get involved.

so far i've got Heidi down for a #1, and you for a #2.

Another option:

4) Simpy live with it and hope for the best.

-S.S.-

 

[narlus]

Alton Brown said it best:

"We are to blame because our culture has come to value two qualities above all else: “cheap”, and “more”."

if one can find a town of likemindedness which rejects that premise, they can probably do a pretty good job of curtailing sprawl. but only in a limited area, and if the region (ie, beautiful mountains, valleys, rivers, etc) is desirable to people, the surround fringes will clog w/ sprawl around our putative utopian enclave.

 

[Ridemonkey]

I wouldn't call discussing it and bitching about it the same thing. An idea needs to start somewhere.

so if the people who are moving to Bend aren't the same people who want to limit growth, provide public transport infrastructure and get involved w/ the public policy planning, then who's gonna do it? that's my point. you can do one of 3 things:

1) bitch about it
2) leave
3) get involved.

so far i've got Heidi down for a #1, and you for a #2.

 

[Ridemonkey]

You could drive to Gunnison to get a Big Mac but that doesn't mean that they might as well build a McDonalds in Crested Butte. Or a Wal mart? Sometimes you just don't want to be around that crap.

So they open one in Louisville, Superior, Broomfield, and Lafayette. Then Boulder residents can leave Boulder and shop at Wal Mart without actually *having* a Wal Mart in the city limits.

I mean, I dislike Wal Mart too, but it's just a store that sells cheap crap. And people want their crap cheap.

-S.S.-

 

[SkaredShtles]

Alton Brown said it best:

"We are to blame because our culture has come to value two qualities above all else: &#8220;cheap&#8221;, and &#8220;more&#8221;."

if one can find a town of likemindedness which rejects that premise, they can probably do a pretty good job of curtailing sprawl. but only in a limited area, and if the region (ie, beautiful mountains, valleys, rivers, etc) is desirable to people, the surround fringes will clog w/ sprawl around our putative utopian enclave.

That's why they call Boulder "Six Square Miles Surrounded by Reality."

-S.S.-

 

[narlus]

I wouldn't call discussing it and bitching about it the same thing. An idea needs to start somewhere.

fair enough. but activism doesn't usually arise from passive discussion either.

for better or for worse, the american philosophy regarding growth and town/city planning doesn't mirror the european one, and i don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[SkaredShtles]

You could drive to Gunnison to get a Big Mac but that doesn't mean that they might as well build a McDonalds in Crested Butte. Or a Wal mart? Sometimes you just don't want to be around that crap.

I agree. It would be *nice* to not be around that crap. But as long as people demand it, it will come. If there's demand for a McD's in C.B. and C.B. says "piss off" then it will sprout up in S. Crested Butte.

If consumers demand it.......... it will come.

Maybe I'm being a pessimistic realist, here.

-S.S.-

 

[SkaredShtles]

fair enough. but activism doesn't usually arise from passive discussion either.

for better or for worse, the american philosophy regarding growth and town/city planning doesn't mirror the european one, and i don't see that changing anytime soon.

Not until it gets crowded (like Europe). Let's face it - we're blessed/cursed by MASSIVE amounts of unpopulated space in this country.......

-S.S.-

 

[Ridemonkey]

then it will sprout up in S. Crested Butte.

That's still 10 miles away, my point still valid, I win


Actually LOL that would suck. My only chance of ever owning a home in CB is in CBS. I'll be an activist if I ever live in that place.

 

[narlus]

hey RM, i found yr dream community:

Unnamed Utopia today: with its natural beauty, resourceful citizens, and exemplary quality of life, Unnamed Utopia is more than just a great place to live. Unnamed Utopia is home; a sanctuary and a work in progress.

Picture Unnamed Utopia in the year 2020: growing more in stature than size, extending in opportunities, advancing thoughtfully. A safe and inspiring environment for people of all ages and stages. A city that works -- and a community that works even harder. Not an island separate from the world, but an oasis, offering a world of difference. Our choices make Unnamed Utopia what it is and what it will be. Our decisions reach far beyond our own times, guiding Unnamed Utopia towards a promising future.

We'll grow, but on our own terms. A modest growth rate, up to a population of around 20,000, will support and encourage economic viability, while maintaining our primary focus on community and manageability.

We build carefully. Unnamed Utopia's environmentally conscious development guidelines, and surrounding permanent greenbelt, promote compact growth and resist the pressures for unplanned sprawl.

We live as neighbors. Safe, quiet, affordable housing is available for seniors and students, families and singles, people from every economic strata. All share a sense of community in distinctive, interconnected neighborhoods.

Our priorities are natural. From our agricultural lands to the community parks and city forests, from our exemplary marsh system and wildlife sanctuary to protected creek and river corridors, wetlands and tidelands, we pride ourselves on our continuing efforts to preserve the unique, natural beauty within and around the City.

We live resourcefully. Sustainability is a way of life. We reduce, reuse, and recycle, continually relearning and redefining as we better understand our local resource base. We are committed to living well, and within Unnamed Utopia's resource base. Our water, wastewater, energy, and land use needs are monitored and adjusted, as we find new ways to minimize consumption. We conserve these resources so they may be enjoyed by the seventh generation.


We move forward. In Unnamed Utopia, public and private transportation come in a variety of forms, and we seek out and use the least polluting, most efficient methods. People come first; bicycles, cars, trucks and transit vehicles share the road with us. Bikeways and pedestrian paths connect all parts of the City.

Our town is architecturally diverse. Unnamed Utopia's urban and neighborhood character is enhanced by a diverse, architectural heritage. Our historic homes, classic commercial structures, craftsman cottages and contemporary buildings create a distinctive yet diverse character. New development complements the character of the neighborhood in which it is located.

We're drawn to the plaza. Our historic and distinctive downtown square remains the heart of Unnamed Utopia. It is our common ground for community events, daily commerce, retail, restaurants and entertainment.

Our future is secure. Unnamed Utopia's economy reflects the efforts of our many entrepreneurs, artisans and small businesses; the support of citizens who value local investment; and those who offer value-added products from locally available resources.

We share the benefits of XXX University. The University, which offers continuing educational opportunities, cultural events and social activities for the entire region, is a stimulating presence and one of our community's most important assets.

We keep it healthful. Pollution prevention is ingrained in all City functions. Controls are well in place, along with continuing education and advancement regarding all aspects of public health, from clean air, water and soil, to seismic safety and quiet neighborhoods.

We are a community. Unnamed Utopians actively participate, and involve themselves in community events. Civic and government activities, neighborhood and interest groups, all are open to, and perpetuated by, citizens who care enough to take responsibility and work together.

this is taken from a real site. i replaced the town/city's name w/ "Unnamed Utopia". anyone care to take a guess as to its true identity?

 

[SkaredShtles]

That's still 10 miles away, my point still valid, I win


Actually LOL that would suck. My only chance of ever owning a home in CB is in CBS. I'll be an activist if I ever live in that place.

Hehehehe. Everyone is an activist in Crested Butte. That's how it stays...... so funky.

Actually I think it'd be more likely that the McD would sprout up in Mt. C.B. It's going to be interesting to see how things pan out with this new ownership of the ski area........

-S.S.-

 

[dh girlie]

Not until it gets crowded (like Europe). Let's face it - we're blessed/cursed by MASSIVE amounts of unpopulated space in this country.......

-S.S.-

Well...we COULD just stop allowing non-americans in...that would solve a lot of the overcrowding in Cali...specially in the silicon valley...you're more apt to find a curry restaurant than a deli or a McDonalds!

 

[narlus]

Not until it gets crowded (like Europe). Let's face it - we're blessed/cursed by MASSIVE amounts of unpopulated space in this country.......

-S.S.-

even w/ the ratio of people to land space, you must admit that they have done a good job of curtailing sprawl, and keeping open areas undeveloped and villages/cities fairly compact.

 

[SkaredShtles]

hey RM, i found yr dream community:



this is taken from a real site. i replaced the town/city's name w/ "Unnamed Utopia". anyone care to take a guess as to its true identity?

I'm gonna have to call bull$hit on the quote " affordable housing is available for seniors and students, families and singles, people from every economic strata" - unless, of course they're going to *selectively pick* the people to live there.

-S.S.-

 

[SkaredShtles]

even w/ the ratio of people to land space, you must admit that they have done a good job of curtailing sprawl, and keeping open areas undeveloped and villages/cities fairly compact.

They have - of course, they've realized probably for several hundred years that they should do something to control it or it would *ALL* be city.....

In the Bordeaux area it was kind of cool to see a bunch of little villages surrounded by vineyards and fields all about 3-5km apart. Of course, who here wants to live in a little high-density village? I would bet very few......

-S.S.-

 

[SkaredShtles]

Well...we COULD just stop allowing non-americans in...that would solve a lot of the overcrowding in Cali...specially in the silicon valley...you're more apt to find a curry restaurant than a deli or a McDonalds!

I don't really think on the whole that would help. Maybe in a few local instances, but not overall. I mean, how many people immigrate to the U.S. every year?

-S.S.-

 

[narlus]

In the Bordeaux area it was kind of cool to see a bunch of little villages surrounded by vineyards and fields all about 3-5km apart. Of course, who here wants to live in a little high-density village? I would bet very few......

-S.S.-

bing bing bing.

the days of us pretending to be vasco de gama or louis and clark are over.

btw, no guesses as to which community's web page i quoted from? i suppose google could tell if you feel like cheating.

 

[dh girlie]

I don't really think on the whole that would help. Maybe in a few local instances, but not overall. I mean, how many people immigrate to the U.S. every year?

-S.S.-

I dunno how many people immigrate to the US each year...I was simply basing my smartass comment on the fact that I have taken about 15 calls this morning, every person had a thick accent...but thats cool...the bay area is VERY culturally diverse.

 

[Ciaran]

btw, no guesses as to which community's web page i quoted from? i suppose google could tell if you feel like cheating.

Is it that place in arkansas that Ponch is hawking on late night TV?

 

[SkaredShtles]

Is it that place in arkansas that Ponch is hawking on late night TV?

Naw - it's Arcata, California. But I cheated.

-S.S.-

 

[Ciaran]

Naw - it's Arcata, California. But I cheated.

-S.S.-

Hey that's up by where I am looking at land. I believe Humboldt State U is there in Arcata. A couple of friends of mine moved there and love it. Of course they are hippies...

 

[SkaredShtles]

Hey that's up by where I am looking at land. I believe Humboldt State U is there in Arcata. A couple of friends of mine moved there and love it. Of course they are hippies...

Yep. It appears to be Utopia........ except for the lack of snow.

-S.S.-

 

[chicodude]

A month ago I would have said the Couer De Lane (I can't spell that ha) area of Idaho until I learned about a little lead problem in the area. I'll pass on that now.

Tehehe, I have family that lives up there.............