[Lelandjt]

Has Shimano ever kept a group unchanged for so long? And it's their premier gravity group, supposedly on par with XTR and Dura-ace. Isn't it a little weird that Saint is still 10 speed while 11speed has been around so long it's trickled way down the trail bike groups? I really thought Shimano would pull the cover off an entirely new Saint at the World Cup or Sea Otter but no. Sram introduced XO DH like 3 years ago and still no answer.
Has Shimano forgotten about Saint and Zee?

 

[Flo33]

They forgot about their brakes a long time ago too, so...

 

[DaveW]

It's a DH race groupset, why do you need a stupidly massive bottom cog?

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Last time I checked DH was all about 7 speed so that Shimano is still in the lead by a clear margin and doesn't need to worry!

 

[Electric_City]

I for one am thrilled to see something didn't change 3 times in one year. Is there really a problem with Saint stuff or did you just want new graphics?

 

[Olly]

If it aint broke, etc.

(Although an argument could be made that their entire range of disc brakes is at least a little bit broken)

 

[William42]

Aren't the cranks/BB's about the only thing awesome about saint right now?

I liked my saint brakes right up until they started pulling to the lever on the descents. The shifting is fine, but less good than then alternatives from SRAM. The cockpit stuff seems fine, but it has no weight advantage over plenty of other reliable products out there. There are cheaper options that are just as reliable for all their non moving parts, and their moving parts leave something to be desired in almost every area (save their cranks, which I still think are fucking great).

 

[jonKranked]

what's their refresh cycle? 5 years? when was the current gen released?

 

[kidwoo]

Has Shimano ever kept a group unchanged for so long?

Have there ever been so many people that think trail bike racing is the pinnacle of performance?

dh is dead bro

Why drink out of the cooler at the bottom when I've got a fanny pack?

Why have a dh bike when my 160mm deflecto-twitch trail bike is more_than_capable™?

 

[Happymtb.fr]

We had new pedals for not so long ago... but I have no idea if they are good or not

 

[jonKranked]

Why have a dh bike when my 160mm deflecto-twitch trail bike is more_than_capable™?

pedal to the top, descend like you're on rails.

 

[slimshady]

Let's be honest, Shimano has been on a consolidation spree for the last 4-5 years. People are raving about 4-pot XT brakes and they're unable to see those share the lever body, caliper and whatnot with Zees. Which also share most of their stuff aside from Tah Blingz™ with Saints. But also with SLX/Deores, at least at the lever stuff.

They can't throw away the XTR because Tah Blingz™, but anything below it will go through the economy/redundancy cut cycle in order to maximize profit. It also allowed Shimano to drastically reduce prices of most of their lines.

 

[Lelandjt]

It's a DH race groupset, why do you need a stupidly massive bottom cog?

I'd expect a 7 speed close ratio cassette based on 11 speed spacing, like XO DH. I use a cut down XTR 10 speed cassette with 8 cogs remaining on my Saint drivetrain.

 

[Dogboy]

Let's be honest, Shimano has been on a consolidation spree for the last 4-5 years. People are raving about 4-pot XT brakes and they're unable to see those share the lever body, caliper and whatnot with Zees. Which also share most of their stuff aside from Tah Blingz™ with Saints. But also with SLX/Deores, at least at the lever stuff.

Not sure of the accuracy, but read an article on Singletrackworld stating that the caliper uses smaller pistons (15/17mm) than the Saint/Zee (16/18mm) calipers. If that's correct then not quite so much consolidation and probably a caliper tuned better for Heavy-All-Mountain™ riding.

 

[slimshady]

Not sure of the accuracy, but read an article on Singletrackworld stating that the caliper uses smaller pistons (15/17mm) than the Saint/Zee (16/18mm) calipers. If that's correct then not quite so much consolidation and probably a caliper tuned better for Heavy-All-Mountain™ riding.

If that's the case with the calipers, I stand corrected. But then again at the lever end most of the stuff is shared among several product lines. I mean, it's not like all the other manufacturers aren't doing the same (hi SRAM!), but in Shimano's case the consolidation was more dramatic, since the product lines used to differ a lot.

 

[Udi]

In Shimano's defence, their trailbike stuff is miles behind SRAM too (and has been for many years).
XX1 11spd was a long time ago now, and Shimano never even came close to competing at that level.

Even in DH, X01DH already destroyed anything that Shimano had to offer, and all that happened a long time ago. I think they may have seen some corporate restructuring or change in philosophy / direction.

@William42 nailed it - the only thing they still make that is actually superior to the competition is their cranks - and that's just because everyone else is retarded, the fundamental design dates back to 2004 on Shimano's part so it's not like anyone did any work in the last decade.

Not that their gear is "bad", it's just fallen behind in performance, particularly performance:weight ratio.

Before anyone jumps on me - I still run Shimano cranks, cassettes, and chains on most of my bikes.
They made some nice stuff. But it certainly wasn't just yesterday that they fell off the train either.

 

[Manifesto]

All the hate on shimano is crazy.. Maybe it's personal preference but I'd rather run shimano then sram any day of the week. SRAMs brakes are trash, derailleurs are made of glass and the cranks are as flexy as a wet noodle. Not to mention every rockshox product I've used has leaked like a sive

 

[kidwoo]

derailleurs are made of glass

no

 

[slimshady]

All the hate on shimano is crazy.. Maybe it's personal preference but I'd rather run shimano then sram any day of the week. SRAMs brakes are trash, derailleurs are made of glass and the cranks are as flexy as a wet noodle. Not to mention every rockshox product I've used has leaked like a sive

It's not hate. I reckon their stuff is simple and works, but down here in Argentina where "Shimano" and "warranty" can't be found together in the same sentence (the same applies to almost every single bike/bike component though), picking their brakes equals playing Russian roulette. While you guys up there can get your brake levers exchanged pretty easily, I've seen a set of brand new Deores with MC wear in less than two months, and another set of XTs with leaky piston seals after six months of riding. Those are just two examples from close friends/fellow riders, and I have a ton more to share. But then again, I'm derailing the thread.

Going back to the Saint renewal, I was thinking about it the other day, since the 2019 12sp XTR got leaked. 2020 might be the year of a new Saint, but since it's mostly working as advertised in the right applications (park/DH bikes), I don't see the need to modify it. 7sp clusters make sense in DH/park as noted above, they have addressed the early issues with the B-tension screw chewing through the RD body, the cranks are almost indestructible, and the brakes are powerful and easily modulated while they work.

 

[jonKranked]

no

maybe once upon a time. back when everything sucked.

 

[jonKranked]

Going back to the Saint renewal, I was thinking about it the other day, since the 2019 12sp XTR got leaked. 2020 might be the year of a new Saint,

usually the way shimano works is that the top end (xtr) gets a rework, then those features trickle down to lower tiers (XT, slx, deore) in subsequent years, then they start back at the top.

i remember years ago back when 9spd was the only game in town, what sram would do was redesign XO every year, and then just rebadge and bump the lower tiers (ie x0 became x9, x9 became x7). at least my memory seems to recall it being this way for a while. then 10spd showed up and everything went to hell.

but yea, saint is due. maybe di2 saint?

 

[WestCoastHucker]

no

i've seen sram derailleurs bust off chunks of rocks without flinching. while i understand this may not be normal, i've never seen a shimano one come even close...

 

[kidwoo]

maybe once upon a time. back when everything sucked.

I still have first gen X0 8spd derailleurs that work fine, and have been on nothing but dh bikes. The ones with the goofy fake carbon pattern on the plastic knuckle....those things were indestructible. That was like 1832 (2003 but still)

 

[jonKranked]

I still have first gen X0 8spd derailleurs that work fine, and have been on nothing but dh bikes. The ones with the goofy fake carbon pattern on the plastic knuckle....those things were indestructible. That was like 1832 (2003 but still)

my bikes are still x7/9 9 speed.

 

[canadmos]

i've seen sram derailleurs bust off chunks of rocks without flinching. while i understand this may not be normal, i've never seen a shimano one come even close...

I can confirm this. I had one X9 derailleur, whose cage literally split apart like a floppy sandwich. Just bent it back and rode it for a few more seasons.

My Sram derailleurs and shifter have always felt much crisper than Shimano. Though Shimano is half the cost, so meh.

I wish every crank had the same Shimano spline and pinch bolt interface.

 

[jstuhlman]

I still have first gen X0 8spd derailleurs that work fine, and have been on nothing but dh bikes. The ones with the goofy fake carbon pattern on the plastic knuckle....those things were indestructible. That was like 1832 (2003 but still)

my bikes are still x7/9 9 speed.

 

[jonKranked]

that's only 7 toilets.

 

[toodles]

Pretty sure i ran the same X.0 9spd mech on 4 DH bikes from 2010 till 2014. It eventually, just wore out and developed so much play that it needed new pins and stuff. Rather than waste a whole day trying to rebuild it, I chucked on another one. The good thing about those things was being able to buy individual parts - I slid off the rock spine thing at the top of No Joke/Freight Train (i think) and bent the knuckle on the mech which stopped it shifting into the hardest 3 gears. $20 for a new knuckle and good as new.

I've run Shimano cranks on everything for the last 8 years because everytime I dabble with the alternatives they remind me why I shouldn't try going away from Shimano. Their chains are the business also - I got some insane amount of kms out of an XTR 11spd on my Scout before it finally demanded replacement after about 2 years of non-stop abuse in all weather conditions.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

Funny this thread has become a shimano vs. SRAM thread...My opinion on it is that both are great at certain things. I am personally a shimano guy through and through, I love their brakes and cranks. Not to say I don't love their shifting, but they lag in terms of speed to market, SRAM is really good at that. I'll buy shimano all day over SRAM though, I'd like a shimano equivalent to to eagle and it will come soon. I feel like shimano's stuff is absolutely rock solid, been using it for 20 years, XTR has almost never let me down (except for dual control). SRAM pushing the boundaries with product development and shimano perfects it with excellent engineering IMO.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

Quick disclaimer to my previous post, I'm not anti either both have their merits. If I didn't have shimano everything, I would be running an eagle drivetrain right now, but I like to keep things consistent across my couple bikes.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

I've run Shimano cranks on everything for the last 8 years because everytime I dabble with the alternatives they remind me why I shouldn't try going away from Shimano. Their chains are the business also - I got some insane amount of kms out of an XTR 11spd on my Scout before it finally demanded replacement after about 2 years of non-stop abuse in all weather conditions.

I'm the same way, XTR & SAINT cranks are unreal. I agree on chains, but don't love the snap off pin system, would love to have a quick link on shimano chains. That SRAM rainbow link it pretty sweet haha.

 

[Jm_]

I'm the same way, XTR & SAINT cranks are unreal. I agree on chains, but don't love the snap off pin system, would love to have a quick link on shimano chains. That SRAM rainbow link it pretty sweet haha.

There is a quick link on shimano chains. They also didn’t make you pay extra for the crosstep feature that SRAM would charge a nice ~$20 premium for. The snap off was never an issue for me though, put it on right and it’s solid. You could always find xt or ultegra chains for $20 somewhere too.

I think shimano is lagging behind with drivetrain and cranks as compared to SRAM.

 

[toodles]

I would be running an eagle drivetrain right now, but I like to keep things consistent across my couple bikes.

Hahah don't, unless you're getting top shelf. GX Eagle is utter self-destructing junk. Hopefully they fix the jockey wheel issue soon.