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When is a track "too rough"? Should we pave tracks and ride them on road bikes?

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
In the Leogang Live thread, Pslide said this in response to my semi-joking statements about rider complaints on track roughness:

I think the issue is when a course makes you take stupid risks in order to win.

WC DH racing is already very high risk. They are taking chances to get the win. But there is a line when things get too stupid. Blind hucking into holes that could result in a neck or back injury is not the kind of risk they want to take - for their careers and for their families.
Now, I don't mean to be rude, but to me, that's the silliest nanny-state reasoning I've read on RideMonkey.

DH racing assumes several factors: Steepness, roughness, technical challenge, rider fitness.

Altering a course to make it "safer" would be like World Cup skiing DH courses being flattened to reduce risk of deadly falls. There are World Cup DH ski race courses with compressions that are known to cause serious injury, or serious imbalance leading to injury. The skiers must learn how to deal with it, or get out of racing at that level. Period.

On an 8" travel DH bike, at the highest levels of skill on the planet, they should know how to deal with the holes. End of story, IMO.

Are the riders getting too used to well-groomed courses? Are they blaming courses for injuries? Ultimately a rider chooses what risks to take. Making a course less risky seems like making a course less World Cup level, and more like an intermediate (Sport class) level course.

In the Leogang thread I made a joke about Willingen, and I made it because I remember very well how much complaining the riders did about that being a "giant BMX track". What's next, asphalt paved DH race courses? On road bikes? Oh wait, RedBull already did that, Myles Rockwell won it!

Is that the future? Paved courses with side cushioning all the way down?
 

Zaphoid

Chimp
Aug 8, 2007
50
0
I think that most of the riders were complaining about the blind hucks off the roads into holed up flat landings.

I can understand their argument if you cant really see where your landing and hauling ass off the road, its pretty much blind luck that you dont land in a hole and die.

It doesnt really come down to skill, so much as blind luck that you are gonna be ok on the landings. I mean i would not be to pleased about landing in a hole at 30 and really not being able to do anything about it.
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
I'm not suggesting they make courses less challenging or less technical - far from it. Just eliminate stupid risks that don't add any element of challenge, but do add danger.

You wouldn't stick some massive holes on the other side of a blind crest on a WC ski course either...cause that's dangerous.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
blah, blah, blah . . .

1. On an 8" travel DH bike, at the highest levels of skill on the planet, they should know how to deal with the holes. End of story, IMO.

2. Are the riders getting too used to well-groomed courses? Are they blaming courses for injuries? Ultimately a rider chooses what risks to take. Making a course less risky seems like making a course less World Cup level, and more like an intermediate (Sport class) level course.
on point 1: The fact that these are some of the guys with concerns should tell you something shouldn't it? leave it to the forum junkies to determine what the best bike riders in the world should and should not be able to do . . . brilliant

2: well groomed courses? do tell me what WC series you've been watching the past few years, and have you missed all the soundbites of riders saying how much they like the courses getting rough and wild?

it is entirely possible to incorporate safety into a course without dumbing it down, and visually it will look exactly the same. Why is it that guys who take risks for a living are somehow expected to be indifferent to their own well being while doing their jobs? why is the concept of course safety so anathema to some DH fans?
 

Akula_7

Monkey
Nov 15, 2004
917
0
Minnaar or Peat or any other rider for that matter never said the track was too rough or gnarly for them. They where however complaining that before a World Cup race the track seemingly had no maintenance carried out and holes that have been growing and growing for 3 years plus where now going to be ridden on/through/over by nearly 300 riders in what has turned out to be very wet conditions.

So these holes that could have been smoothed or lessened in severity before 300 odd riders of very varying abilities smashed them again, where not!

The simple point is a "World Cup" track should be prepared in a world class fashion prior to the event, the 2 and half days of traffic before finals will sufficently "roughen" and toughen up the track for all you hardcore keyboard jockeys!

Minnaar's other point was that these blind crest entrys into steep wooded sections are a safety concern in practice as there is a HUGE variant in the abilities of the riders racing World Cups and the possibility of a top 5 rider cresting one of these rises to then hit a few bodies lying on course is high. Minnarr and Peat where simple calling for more intelligent taping to slow down the entry to certain sections and reduce the chance of practice crashes. They aren't worried about their own abilities at all.

So basically, don't worry what the arse bandit keyboard heros in the Leogang thread are saying and use your own skull to understand the situation.

I'm thinking it's almost time for me to wave good bye to RM, it's become a pretty sad, negative sihthole.
 

S.G.D

Monkey
Jun 14, 2002
505
0
Vancouver
i think they should include spikes and bear pits and hang meat off the backs of each riders bike for the sweet gaps over the hungry bears.

once they cross the line just shoot every rider in the knee since making it down in one piece is for pussies.
 

Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,698
1,053
behind you with a snap pop
When is a forum "too ghey?" Should we have random metal spikes on our keyboards?
RM's DH forum knobs have the highest level of keyboard skills on the planet. They should be able to handle a few random metal spikes, end of story, IMO.
 

W4S

Turbo Monkey
Mar 2, 2004
1,282
23
Back in Hell A, b1thces
Altering a course to make it "safer" would be like World Cup skiing DH courses being flattened to reduce risk of deadly falls. There are World Cup DH ski race courses with compressions that are known to cause serious injury, or serious imbalance leading to injury. The skiers must learn how to deal with it, or get out of racing at that level. Period.
LOL, you've never helped build a WC Dh ski course, have you? I used to work on the Mammoth Mtn Race Dept, we built several FIS WC DH courses and safety of the racers was the first and most important consideration and we spent most of our time making the courses as safe as possible so the racers could go fast as comfortably as possible. Even a 'safe' course is very dangerous, notable tracks like Wengen and Hahnenkampf are always being altered to try to make them safer, your analogy is flawed.
 
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slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
Since nobody addressed my points, but instead attacked me personally, I'll wonder what sorts of e-victories they all imagine to have "won."

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Sandy Vahjyenah, but don't they get to walk the track and then ride it as a practice?

So what's a "blind hole"? How is it "blind" when you get to walk the track, then also practice the track?

As to the comment about building FIS race courses -- irrelevant. I didn't ever suggest that safety is NOT a concern. I'm talking about technical challenge. So you're saying that building an FIS course involves dumbing down the challenge? Or are you not saying that, and instead building an argument that makes you feel victorious somehow?

I am NOT suggesting that my keyboard skills make me an e-qualified critic, nor am I pretending that I can compete with anyone riding at the World Cup DH level. So poking at me on that basis -- childish, illogical, and pointless. But, I guess, somehow satisfying to the ironically armchair-bound e-warrior, eh?

From the looks of Sam Dale's course run, the Deadly Holes don't seem so deadly. He's still alive, I take it.

++++++++++++++

rigidhack's photo is funny. It also raises an issue that I think about a lot, especially today. Anyone own a copy of the movie "Steep"? Anyone know about it? Isn't it a bit odd that two of its stars are now dead in ski-related accidents?

15 minutes ago I learned that one of my friends died 2 days ago on a backcountry skiing day. They just found his body earlier this morning. He went out Tuesday, didn't show for work Wed, yesterday the mtn was too socked-in and snow-beaten to search effectively.

Yeah, I'm familiar with risk. I ski backcountry too. I've also spent 20 years of my adult life in the world of risk management from a lot of different perspectives.

But hey, I suppose RideMonkey UberHipsters can feel victorious for throwing schittballs at me when I raise legitimate questions about risk, technical challenge, and what are reasonable limits.

Easier to call me an armchair expert while one is himself ironically being an armchair toughguy, eh?

Brilliant. Like a diamond. :rolleyes:
 
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davetrump

Turbo Monkey
Jul 29, 2003
1,270
0
Since nobody addressed my points, but instead attacked me personally, I'll wonder what sorts of e-victories they all imagine to have "won."

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Sandy Vahjyenah, but don't they get to walk the track and then ride it as a practice?

So what's a "blind hole"? How is it "blind" when you get to walk the track, then also practice the track?

As to the comment about building FIS race courses -- irrelevant. I didn't ever suggest that safety is NOT a concern. I'm talking about technical challenge. So you're saying that building an FIS course involves dumbing down the challenge? Or are you not saying that, and instead building an argument that makes you feel victorious somehow?

I am NOT suggesting that my keyboard skills make me an e-qualified critic, nor am I pretending that I can compete with anyone riding at the World Cup DH level. So poking at me on that basis -- childish, illogical, and pointless. But, I guess, somehow satisfying to the ironically armchair-bound e-warrior, eh?

From the looks of Sam Dale's course run, the Deadly Holes don't seem so deadly. He's still alive, I take it.
pretty sure a few people posted clear and concise responses to the points you were trying to make.

not sure how you missed those, but I suggest you remove foot from mouth and go back and read what is on the page above.

I I have to agree with Lee and Akula on this one... I think you have somehow made concusions that are a bit of the mark. Those guys attempted to shed some light on that for you but now you have gone of on a childish tirade.

in case you are too lazy to look up, I will copy on of the very logical posts in this thread that you obviously missed:thumb:

"Minnaar or Peat or any other rider for that matter never said the track was too rough or gnarly for them. They where however complaining that before a World Cup race the track seemingly had no maintenance carried out and holes that have been growing and growing for 3 years plus where now going to be ridden on/through/over by nearly 300 riders in what has turned out to be very wet conditions.

So these holes that could have been smoothed or lessened in severity before 300 odd riders of very varying abilities smashed them again, where not!

The simple point is a "World Cup" track should be prepared in a world class fashion prior to the event, the 2 and half days of traffic before finals will sufficently "roughen" and toughen up the track for all you hardcore keyboard jockeys!

Minnaar's other point was that these blind crest entrys into steep wooded sections are a safety concern in practice as there is a HUGE variant in the abilities of the riders racing World Cups and the possibility of a top 5 rider cresting one of these rises to then hit a few bodies lying on course is high. Minnarr and Peat where simple calling for more intelligent taping to slow down the entry to certain sections and reduce the chance of practice crashes. They aren't worried about their own abilities at all."
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
Dave, that's a very long-winded non-response to my points.

But thanks for claiming victory-- AGAIN. Bully for you!
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,379
24,026
media blackout
re: "blind", that term applies to obstacles/features that you cannot physically see until you are upon them. Whether or not you know it's there in advance is irrelevant. IE something with EXTREMELY limited line of site viewing distance.
 

S.G.D

Monkey
Jun 14, 2002
505
0
Vancouver
Have you ever raced at an elite, or near world cup level? if not then I would suspect you're not actually qualified to make statements on something like track safety versus difficulty. I'm not saying that as a personal attack, but as a fact so don't label this as a "childish" dig on your skill level.

there is a difference between a difficult, scary track that separates the men from the boys, and a track that is dangerous or has dangerous aspects.

edit: also, stop trying to defend your points with ignorance. you're claiming people are being childish for calling you out, but you're now childishly plugging your ears and stomping your feet whenever someone erodes your point with a logically written post coming actual real racing experience.
 
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Mr Ridiculous

Margarita my slippers
Apr 21, 2006
435
0
Morgantown, WV
Dave, that's a very long-winded non-response to my points.

But thanks for claiming victory-- AGAIN. Bully for you!
What in the hell are you talking about? The good General nailed it in this thread and in the Leogang one. A shoddily maintained track does not equal technical. Nor does a gnarly tech track have to be shoddily maintained.
 

slowmtb

Monkey
Aug 17, 2008
216
0
ChurChur, NZ
What in the hell are you talking about? The good General nailed it in this thread and in the Leogang one. A shoddily maintained track does not equal technical. Nor does a gnarly tech track have to be shoddily maintained.
Exactly, this is DH not FR. Perhaps DH has evolved into a sport you no longer understand and you should change your name to superfastbada$$hucker . If you do not understand something as simple as the term "blind" then it might be time to go back to school.

This thread is pointless and won't go anywhere - slowitdown , you are just trolling, get back under your bridge, it's safer there ( for all of us ).
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,344
1,585
Warsaw :/
You guyz are silly and teh pussiezzzz. Trakz are never too rough. I go plow them down with maah apocalypse with hanebrick forks. It roxxorz da boxxorz. No matter how big the wholes are I just smash threw them, even if they are bigger than my bike. Screw safety, I want to see blood, crashes and tits! Oh and kittens, they are nice too. Only the fluffy ones though.


btw. Go and ride a WC Dh track. Please do and thank think about what makes them really difficult - its not the fact that is beaten down and full of holes(Maribor and Schladming during the wc are much less beaten down than a regular bike park track).
 

monkeyfcuker

Monkey
May 26, 2008
912
8
UK, Carlisle
You guyz are silly and teh pussiezzzz. Trakz are never too rough. I go plow them down with maah apocalypse with hanebrick forks. It roxxorz da boxxorz. No matter how big the wholes are I just smash threw them, even if they are bigger than my bike. Screw safety, I want to see blood, crashes and tits! Oh and kittens, they are nice too. Only the fluffy ones though.
:rofl:

Norbar, is your first language English? You pull off that piss take amazingly well if it aint.
 

10rubkaz

Chimp
Feb 16, 2010
15
0
I really wonder why you lot even give this guy a response. He&#8217;s either winding you up, I hope, or just a total numpty that hasn&#8217;t got a clue about dh.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
So what's a "blind hole"? How is it "blind" when you get to walk the track, then also practice the track?

As to the comment about building FIS race courses -- irrelevant. I didn't ever suggest that safety is NOT a concern. I'm talking about technical challenge. So you're saying that building an FIS course involves dumbing down the challenge? Or are you not saying that, and instead building an argument that makes you feel victorious somehow?
There was one small example mentioned. I remember in one of the Eartheds, in Brazil there was a sizable drop to a flat spot.

I didn't it was that dangerous because it was slow speed but that is exactly what I was thinking when I read "drop into a blind hole".

As a spectator, I want to see some spectacularly difficult sections, like Yard Sale. But I don't want to see a racer try to do a drop into Yard Sale.

And I would think the pros know what to complain about.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,344
1,585
Warsaw :/
:rofl:

Norbar, is your first language English? You pull off that piss take amazingly well if it aint.
I was stupid enough to take the IB diploma program in high school so its not far away. Especialy when you have lessons with people who try to teach you in english but really speak like that ;) (or you can make them to do so ;) )


Err I mean I was serious with that post man ;)
 
Aug 4, 2008
328
4
Just to add some more fuel to the thread...

I have ridden there in 2008 and the track was very very beaten up then. It had some of its dangerous moments. And I know they didn't do anything to it from then... Thus making it all the more dangerous (the parts Peat and Minaar were talking about).

And I can't really imagine hitting the **** at race speeds...

What Minaar and Peat said was about lesser riders getting hurt in large numbers. And it is unnecessary.

Whoever thinks them being pussys for pointing it out should just go and hit it full-speed and then just change his mind.

I've noticed a lot of this kind of mentality lately - where almost every grom wants to build something gnarlier than Champery.

And its stupid. Its not fun. Especially on local race scenes. Does anybody even know why Claudio Caulori even built Champery the way he did? Because he had no other choice... there are no easier lines there. Building tracks like that on purpose is just stupid.

It kinda reminds me of hot-dogging - does anybody remember what happened to the sport? Yeah nobody knows about it - my point exactly.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,344
1,585
Warsaw :/
Just to add some more fuel to the thread...

I have ridden there in 2008 and the track was very very beaten up then. It had some of its dangerous moments. And I know they didn't do anything to it from then... Thus making it all the more dangerous (the parts Peat and Minaar were talking about).

And I can't really imagine hitting the **** at race speeds...

What Minaar and Peat said was about lesser riders getting hurt in large numbers. And it is unnecessary.

Whoever thinks them being pussys for pointing it out should just go and hit it full-speed and then just change his mind.

I've noticed a lot of this kind of mentality lately - where almost every grom wants to build something gnarlier than Champery.

And its stupid. Its not fun. Especially on local race scenes. Does anybody even know why Claudio Caulori even built Champery the way he did? Because he had no other choice... there are no easier lines there. Building tracks like that on purpose is just stupid.

It kinda reminds me of hot-dogging - does anybody remember what happened to the sport? Yeah nobody knows about it - my point exactly.
Actualy tracks can still be as steep as Champery and still relatively safe. Im quite sure Schladming is gnarlier than any track Ive seen live and it is also one of the safer tracks Ive seen. Its really a good example of how tracks should look.
 
Aug 4, 2008
328
4
@norbar: youre right - but the trailbuilders I'm talking about dont know that... I've seen plenty of tracks with dangerous parts, not challenging dangerous - where trail builders rationalized that it's to separate men from boys.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,344
1,585
Warsaw :/
@norbar: youre right - but the trailbuilders I'm talking about dont know that... I've seen plenty of tracks with dangerous parts, not challenging dangerous - where trail builders rationalized that it's to separate men from boys.
Are you by any chance from Poland? ;)
 

P.T.W

Monkey
May 6, 2007
599
0
christchurch nz
I only seem to have a use for this pic on Slowitdown's threads ....whos name is quite ironic considering what he chosen to bitch about now:think:
 

Banga

Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
362
11
Wellington, New Zealand
Actualy tracks can still be as steep as Champery and still relatively safe. Im quite sure Schladming is gnarlier than any track Ive seen live and it is also one of the safer tracks Ive seen. Its really a good example of how tracks should look.
Having ridden both (back in 07 mind you) IMO Champery is a step or two above Schladming. Schladming is somewhere you could still have fun, even when it was getting chopped up over a WC weekend. Champery on the otherhand felt like you were rolling the dice each run, any mistake anywhere on that track was punished, and that was in the dry a month or so after the WC.