[yonton228]

I think there was also something about a big green statue in New York somewhere.... I could be wrong....

actually,the reason why the statue of liberty looks green is because the way copper interacts with the enviroment. the sun, greenhouse gasses, and other things gave lady liberty her green color. yes, it once looked like a nice shiny pennie, and not the green color it is now.

 

[MMike]

actually,the reason why the statue of liberty looks green is because the way copper interacts with the enviroment. the sun, greenhouse gasses, and other things gave lady liberty her green color. yes, it once looked like a nice shiny pennie, and not the green color it is now.

Umm... yes I think pretty much everyone knows that....

 

[robdamanii]

Serious Question...
Who out there actually believes that Lance has accomplished everything he's accomplished without the aide of performance enhancers?? (and can answer without the obligitory Frog bashing)
I'd love to believe his story, but deep down somewhere I just can't. When something seems too good to be true I've come to find it usually is.

If you read all the info in Journal of Applied Physiology, the studies document the bodily changes he's gone through since his bout with cancer, and they are astounding. His power/weight ratio, endurance, etc showed a very linear change, much unlike that of a doped athlete.

Has he ever used performance enhancers at any point in his life? Undoubtedly. Has he used them while in competition? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Barbaton]

he may be a talented rider (if he truly didn't dope) but i still think he's a douche for leaving his 1st wife (who i think is hotter than that singer chick).

i mean, she stuck by his sick punk ass when he was down with cancer. seems like as soon as he got famous, he ditched.

As for the Barry Bonds comment, I think one of the reasons he's been pilloried despite the fact that he hasn't tested was the documents found in the Balco investigation. Especially the calendar that had his name next to steroid names (EPO, D-T, etc) on certain dates. It also said MJ, but they couldn't prove that was Marion Jones. And he admitted he'd taken substances during the trial, but claimed he didn't know what they were. When Lance testifies in a trial that he used anything, whether or not he knew what they were, you can compare him to bonds.

 

[Reactor]

I find it interesting to say the least that we're willing to hang athletes like Barry Bonds (who btw has never tested positive for anything....although MLB's testing policy is an admitted joke) but I've never understood why everyone gives Lance the benefit of the doubt without question......I personally think Lance is amazing, but I am beginning to question his "unquestionable integrity". He is human after all.

Testing is part of the problem. Lance is the most tested athelete in history. The french harrass and test him and the postal/discovery team endlessly. This year he was even "randomly" drug tested the day after the start of competition tests. Lance has always been at the top of the field in pro cycling, and didn't decline as testing got even more intense, in fact he got better.

Barry on the other hand was never tested during the period in questions, was using BALCO labs, which has admitted to providing steriods to major league atheletes, and is playing dumb. A guy who was a average hitter, suddenly gains about 50 lbs of muscle and is crushing the ball out of the park regularly. That's suspicious. Now that testing is going to happen he's retiring.


Who do you think is telling the truth, and who is a fraud?

 

[Echo]

When was Barry Bonds ever an average hitter? Or average at any facet of the game?

And we don't know dick about why Lance split with his first wife. So it's ridiculous to speculate that he dumped her.

 

[robdamanii]

When was Barry Bonds ever an average hitter? Or average at any facet of the game?

And we don't know dick about why Lance split with his first wife. So it's ridiculous to speculate that he dumped her.

And besides, who wouldn't want to nail Sheryl Crow anyway?

 

[Senôr Lopez]

Reactor and Rob both make valid points. Yes Lance is the most tested athlete in the world, and yes he appears to have superhuman physiology. And we all know Bonds has used performance enhancers whether he knew what they were or not. But just because it is the French that are questioning Lance does not discount them. Personally I have thought for years that Lance has stayed one step ahead of the testers, anybody with the influence and bankroll he has has the capability to do so. His comeback story is the stuff of legend, but usually where there is smoke there is fire.

 

[Senôr Lopez]

And now the director of the Tour, not just journalists are calling out Lance. (Yes he is also French). I know that single samples are not acceptable without a backup, but I hope his excuse is better than Bonds' "I thought it was flax seed oil" load of crap.
As EPO does not just end up in your system by accident, I wonder how (or if) he'll respond to these allegations.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2141710

 

[Hawkeye]

1) Lance met his wife AFTER cancer. Not before.

2) Bonds was a HOF player with a huge ego before roids. He took roids to feed his ego. He has often said that the reason he keeps playing is to pass the "white devil racist Ruth" on the HR list. Bonds hat size went up 3 sizes AFTER his 40th birthday, sorry that just doesn't happen. Nor does 60+ HR's a year as you get older.

3) Testing 6 year old urine samples can't be valid especially since the testing lab or method didn't exist in 1999. The samples have been moved and been through several hands since the 99 tour and tampering could have easily have occurred.

4) and DUH!!!! Lance is a twin didn't you know? Spear died in the womb.

 

[MMike]

Lance and Spear?

 

[yonton228]

I understand that when a person is at such a level many, and i mean many questions are gonna be raised about his training and (possible doping) than any other person. It comes witht the territory, its to be expected. However, one must not forget the way this guy trains, the many millions of dollars his sponsers invested in him to be at the level he is now. His team has a special machince for christ sakes that helps his body recover at a extreme rate. I very much doubt that he would use steriods , EPO knowingly. But that is my opinion on the matter.

PS: And why not call the French names?? Its fun. THE ONLY WAR THAT THEY HAVE WON WAS AGAINST THEMSELVES.

 

[Hawkeye]

Lance and Spear?

Yup.

Very little known fact about the Lance.

 

[Hawkeye]

I
PS: And why not call the French names?? Its fun. THE ONLY WAR THAT THEY HAVE WON WAS AGAINST THEMSELVES.

Why does the French flag have velcro?





So the red and blue stripes can be pulled off in case of invasion.

 

[Wumpus]

3) Testing 6 year old urine samples can't be valid especially since the testing lab or method didn't exist in 1999. The samples have been moved and been through several hands since the 99 tour and tampering could have easily have occurred.

I can't find out what ever came of this, but here is some precedent:

Retrotesting for THG

It's "going backwards" that is a murky issue. THG is a designer drug, made to escape detection in drug testing. And because it was unknown, it was not specifically listed on many league's banned substances list. So does that mean those who were taking THG should be punished… or have they beaten the system?

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA)says those who cheated should be punished.

On Oct. 24, the WADA recommended all international sports federations and all national anti-doping federations analyse any stored samples for THG.

"A proactive approach in this matter is crucial," WADA's director general David Howman said at the time. "It not only sends a message to athletes that cheating will not be tolerated, but also reassures the general public that definite steps are being taken to stamp out the scourge of doping in sport."

Such extensive retrotesting is a first for the sporting world. The International Olympic Committee is even considering retesting 19-month-old stored samples from the Salt Lake City Olympics. Between 200 and 300 samples exist of Olympics medal winners and runners-up. The IOC is considering the scientific and legal implications before making its decision, expected in early December.

Other organizations, such as FIFA, MLB and NBA, opted against THG re-examinations. MLB has, however, added THG to its list of banned substances.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/steroids/

 

[Hawkeye]

I can't find out what ever came of this, but here is some precedent:



http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/steroids/

19 months is not 72 months.

I read some article the other day that the tester even said "we didn't even exist is 1999"

I just don't see how they can do anything. But I would not be surprised to see France pass legislation to railroad Lance........and spear.

 

[Wumpus]

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8746.0.html

 

[Westy]

And now the director of the Tour, not just journalists are calling out Lance. (Yes he is also French). I know that single samples are not acceptable without a backup, but I hope his excuse is better than Bonds' "I thought it was flax seed oil" load of crap.
As EPO does not just end up in your system by accident, I wonder how (or if) he'll respond to these allegations.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2141710

I doubt they could strip him of any titles or wins, but if it turns out to be a scientifically valid test it certainly gives all the finger pointers some really strong ammunition. Personally I would not be suprised if it was a valid test and he did have EPO in his system, but to be fair they should test every sample they have from '99 and soil the names of all the other dopers from that years Le tour.

 

[Hawkeye]

It said in another article they had 12 positive samples. Where are the other 6 positives and what are the names?

 

[F.O.G]

Lance should just come back from retirement and kick the S*IT out of all of them again.

 

[Reactor]

Barry Bonds before 2000, hit from a poor .223 to an execellent .336,

From 1996 to 1999 his batting average was consistently dropping from .308 in '96 to .262 in 99. His home run production went from 42,40,37,34 a downward spiral, expected from an athelete entering his mid 30's (34 in '99).

Suddenly in 2000 he's a monster his batting average goes .306, .328, .370, .341, .362. His HR production is 49, 73,46,45,45. all above his lifetime MLB average, and this in years when he's 35,36,37,38,39 He's suddenly getting stronger as most players his age are retiring.

 

[Reactor]

And now the director of the Tour, not just journalists are calling out Lance. (Yes he is also French). I know that single samples are not acceptable without a backup, but I hope his excuse is better than Bonds' "I thought it was flax seed oil" load of crap.
As EPO does not just end up in your system by accident, I wonder how (or if) he'll respond to these allegations.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2141710

again:

1. The test is probably not scientifically valid or proven on 6 year old samples.
2. After six years the sample probably doesn't have a valid chain of custody and could have been tampered with. More importantly you can't prove it isn't tampered with, or purposely swapped for another sample.
3. The samples were given to an outside lab, for research purposes, further compromising the validity of the samples.
4. There is no 'A' sample to prove it wans't simply cross contaminated or tampered with.

 

[Reactor]

I'm reading a translated version of le equipe here. The director of the Canadian anti-doping lab doubts the results. She says that the life of EPO metabolytes isn't measured in years, it's measured in months, and she has doubts about the samples really Lance Armstrongs, and doesn't believe the chain of custody was maintained on the samples for five years, and is sure it wasn't maintained at the research lab. She's also shocked and appalled that anonymous samples used for reasearch were revealed to the public.

 

[Transcend]

Either way, he's a doper and hopefully gets shown for the fraud he is any time now.

 

[ridetoofast]

don't know your humor...was that a joke or are you serious?

 

[stiksandstones]

All this BS reporting, it will never end...but,

As Eddy Merckx said once when asked about drugs in road racing "You can not win the Tour on cheese sandwiches alone"

 

[MMike]

Maybe Lance had to retire because his dope supplier was retiring?

 

[Senôr Lopez]

Reactor. I am with you on the Barry Bonds issue. Everyone with even half a brain knows he has used steroids. But the fact is he has never ever tested positive (just like Lance). And if you're so willing to hinge your argument against bonds on a leaked grand jury testimony than why not give some credibility to Le Equipe??? But the fact remains that although there are serious accusations against Lance out there everyone is willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I for one have had suspicions for years, but now some sort of credible evidence is coming to light.
Again you make valid points about chain of custody issues, but the fact is that Lance more likely than not probably used performance enhancing drugs at some point in his run. It's sad, but he's not the first athlete that has told a bold faced lied to the public. Re: Rafy Palmerio?

 

[Senôr Lopez]

Maybe Lance had to retire because his dope supplier was retiring?

Damn isn't it a total bummer when you can't get a hold of that really good stuff? If his main supplier left (or was arrested) Lance would have to go from HGH to GHB or from EPO to CBO (Clenbuterol)

 

[stiksandstones]

Lance on an exclusive Larry King tomm. night, will talk about this latest scenario.

 

[beestiboy]

I for one will probably not watch the TDF next year simply because of this crap. I could be wrong but I think LeQuipe is owned by the same company that organizes the Tour. They should be blowing lance for what he did for their race in the last 7 years.

Hell hes got everyone riding a bike because of the inspiration he generates.

They only way the TDF can ever be the same is if Lance came back and Snatched # 8 from them next year......and maybe that was there plan by planting this story in the paper.

See if they could piss him off enough to come back one more time, and maybe then just maybe someone could lay the wood to good old Lance. I for one think hes clean and dont really care about the French and their thoughts.

So how about it Lance, you up for number 8?

 

[BSEVEER]

Yeah right, he cheated on the first tour and the next 6 were a fluke. If we assume for a minute that Lance doped for his entire career then shouldn't we also assume that everyone he raced doped too? So if everyone is doping and he still kicked their ass, who cares?

 

[Changleen]

Yeah, this is a non story really. The likelyhood is, if Lance could use dope and get away with it, so could everyone else. If he could not, neither could anyone else. Either way it's a level playing field.

 

[Wumpus]

And if you're so willing to hinge your argument against bonds on a leaked grand jury testimony than why not give some credibility to Le Equipe??? But the fact remains that although there are serious accusations against Lance out there everyone is willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I guess you didn't read reactor's post or the velonews article.

Doctor Christiane Ayotte, director of the Doping Control Laboratory at Montreal's Institut National de la Recherché Scientifique, said that the L'Equipe story, outlining charges that seven-time Tour de France winner had used EPO at the 1999 edition of the race, raised several important scientific and ethical questions, beginning with the assertion that France's anti-doping lab had tested frozen urine samples five years after the fact.

"We are extremely surprised that urine samples could have been tested in 2004 and have revealed the presence of EPO," Ayotte said in an interview with VeloNews on Tuesday. "EPO - in its natural state or the synthesized version - is not stable in urine, even if stored at minus 20 degrees."

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8746.0.html

 

[Reactor]

Reactor. I am with you on the Barry Bonds issue. Everyone with even half a brain knows he has used steroids. But the fact is he has never ever tested positive (just like Lance). And if you're so willing to hinge your argument against bonds on a leaked grand jury testimony than why not give some credibility to Le Equipe??? But the fact remains that although there are serious accusations against Lance out there everyone is willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I for one have had suspicions for years, but now some sort of credible evidence is coming to light.
Again you make valid points about chain of custody issues, but the fact is that Lance more likely than not probably used performance enhancing drugs at some point in his run. It's sad, but he's not the first athlete that has told a bold faced lied to the public. Re: Rafy Palmerio?

Even ignoring the grand jury testimony, under oath, I also posted Barry's stats. from '96-99 he was a declining major leaguer headed for retirement. He was a good player, I'm not disputing that. But in 2000 he suddenly starts improving his batting average goes up 100 points in a couple of years at the time everyone else his age is are going down. His home run production goes through the roof, at a time when everyone else his age is loosing muscle due to age and declining hormones. He was never tested.

Lance, on the other hand, was tested constantly for years, on and off season. Now acusations based on a six year old sample, that might or might not be his, with no chain of custody, using a test the head of the Canadian anti-doping lab says can't possibly detect six year old EPO surfaces in a french tabloid. Lance has always been at the top of his field, his performance didn't suddenly double after four years of decline, unlike Barry. Lance got better after more rigorous testing was started, which implies he wasn't using, unlike Barry who retires.

Lance is retiring before the age that Barry suddenly got better, because he knows it's over.

 

[robdamanii]

Lance got better after more rigorous testing was started, which implies he wasn't using, unlike Barry who retires.

Most importantly....JAP documented his improvements in a very linear progression, NOT a huge, inexplicable jump such as that Bonds has shown.

Let's face it...your VO2 max will actually jump - as in a near perfect 1/0 slope - to a new plateau with the use of EPO. His VO2 max did NOT do that, but increased in a curvilinear (sp) fashion.

Damnit, someone's going to make me go and actually try to find all those JAP issues. I remember reading them in Adv. Ex. Phys, but don't remember which ones they were.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Ok, you french fawkers, Lance is pissed.......

Lance Armstrong Goes on the Counterattack
Aug 25 7:59 AM US/Eastern
By JIM LITKE
AP Sports Writer

Lance Armstrong climbed down off his bike a month ago. His counterattacking skills, though, remain as sharp as ever. A day after the director of the Tour de France said the seven-time champion "fooled" race officials and the sporting world by doping, Armstrong responded to the growing controversy with harsh words for everyone connected to a report in L'Equipe, the French sports daily that made the original accusation.

"Where to start?" Armstrong mused during a conference call Wednesday from Washington, D.C. "This has been a long, love-hate relationship between myself and the French."

He went on to lambaste L'Equipe and question the science and ethics of the suburban Paris laboratory that stored frozen samples from the 1999 tour, tested them only last year and leaked the results used in the newspaper's report. He even suggested that officials of the Tour and sports ministries who were involved in putting the story together could wind up facing him in court.

"Right now," Armstrong said, "we're considering all our options."

But a moment later, he added, "In the meantime, it would cost a million and a half dollars and a year of my life. I have a lot better things to do with the million and a half ... a lot better things I can do with my time. Ultimately, I have to ask myself that question."

What convinced Armstrong to go on the offensive were remarks earlier Wednesday by tour director Jean-Marie Leblanc. He said L'Equipe's report that six urine samples Armstrong provided during his first tour win in 1999 tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO had convinced him the cyclist had cheated.

"The ball is now in his court," Leblanc told the newspaper. "Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the Tour. Today, what L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."

But in one sense, Armstrong felt the same way, saying he talked to Leblanc on the telephone after the tour director spoke to L'Equipe, but before those remarks were published.

"I actually spoke to him for about 30 minutes and he didn't say any of that stuff to me personally," Armstrong said. "But to say that I've 'fooled' the fans is preposterous. I've been doing this a long time. We have not just one year of only 'B' samples; we have seven years of 'A' and 'B' samples. They've all been negative."

Armstrong questioned the validity of testing samples frozen six years ago, how those samples were handled since, and how he could be expected to defend himself when the only confirming evidence _ the 'A' sample used for the 1999 tests _ no longer existed. He also charged officials at the suburban Paris lab with violating World Anti-Doping Agency code for failing to safeguard the anonymity of any remaining 'B' samples it had.

"It doesn't surprise me at all that they have samples. Clearly they've tested all of my samples since then to the highest degree. But when I gave those samples," he said, referring to 1999, "there was not EPO in those samples. I guarantee that."

EPO, formally known as erythropoietin, was on the list of banned substances when Armstrong won his first Tour, but there was no effective test to detect the drug. But Armstrong's assurances he never took performance-enhancing drugs has been good enough for his sponsors. A previously scheduled meeting with several brought him to Washington, and he said afterward, "We haven't seen any damage."

But Armstrong acknowledged the same was likely true at L'Equipe.

"Obviously, this is great business for them," he said. "Unfortunately, I'm caught in the cross-hairs.

"And at the end of day," he added, "I think that's what it's all about ... selling newspapers. And it sells."

 

[Echo]

Even ignoring the grand jury testimony, under oath, I also posted Barry's stats. from '96-99 he was a declining major leaguer headed for retirement. He was a good player, I'm not disputing that.

I like how you keep saying he as a "good" player

He was winning MVP awards, golden gloves, athlete of the year, etc his whole career. Batting average does not tell you everything about the kind of year a player had or what impact they had on the field.

Not to say Bonds is clean. But by your arguement, a 34 year old baseball player winning batting titles and HR titles is somewhat equivalent to a cancer survivor winning 7 straight Tour de France titles, no?

 

[urbaindk]

Notice any similarities?

"The ball is now in his court. Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the tour. Today, what L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."

"Well, hear me out, if you're innocent, you will fall to an honorable Christian death. If you are, however, the bride of Satan, you will surely fly your broom to safety. At that point you will report back here for torture and beheading."

 

[Reactor]

I like how you keep saying he as a "good" player

He was winning MVP awards, golden gloves, athlete of the year, etc his whole career. Batting average does not tell you everything about the kind of year a player had or what impact they had on the field.

Not to say Bonds is clean. But by your arguement, a 34 year old baseball player winning batting titles and HR titles is somewhat equivalent to a cancer survivor winning 7 straight Tour de France titles, no?

No. it's not. Bonds had four years of declining batting average and home run production. Regardless of his other skills, which are impressive, his batting performance, which is largely based on strength, was declining. He was a good to average hitter depending on where in his record you look. Suddenly boom, someone waves a magic wand and his preformance jumps, 100 points in batting average and nearly doubling his home run production. We know Balco was supplying atheletes with steroids. We know Bonds used Balco. We know Bonds had a major jump in performance. Bonds wasn't tested.

Armstrong had a long string of being a pack leader, improving each year, before cancer, after cancer he worked hard, and continued his improvements as Roddamanii say in a linear fashion. No big jump. No 100% improvement.

Did Armstong use performance enhancing drugs, it's possible but I think highly unlikely. Given the level of testing, lack of any evidence of a major jump in performance, there isn't really any basis to think he did. A six year old sample, which might or might no be his, might or might not be tampered with, with a test that's probably not scientifically valid detecting a byproduct which the head of a doping lab says couldn't possibly detect after six years, isn't reason to doubt him.

Armstong can be an jerk. He works and races hard. He pushes the edge of the evelope looking for any way to gain an advantage, legally. But I don't think he cheats. Remember this is the guy who was in the yellow jersey a few years ago and when Ullrich ran off the road he held up the peleton for Ullrich, just to make sure he didn't unfairly get an advantage over him. Ullrich wasn't about to return the favor a couple of years later, the peleton had to stop Ullrich and remind him that he owed lance when a spectator took lance out on a mountain climb.