[Reactor]

One other thing. Bonds was past the point at which atheletes get stronger and better. He was 34 years old, an age where declining hormones limit your strength and ability to recover from workouts. It doesn't make sense that he could gain the type of strength he did, as fast as he did, at his age without the juice.

Lance was in his early twenties, the area where atheletes make their greatest gains in performance. His improvement makes sense, and isn't sudden or fighting the effects of age.

 

[Echo]

What I'm saying is, when you assume Bonds to be guilty when he has never failed a test, you are giving him the same treatment L'equipe gives Lance.

An athlete at the top of his game is accused in the media of using performance enhancers. He has never failed a test. Fellow athletes and other people say they saw him use performance enhancers. Past coaches and trainers are implicated with drug use. Everyone forms an opinion about his guilt or innocence, without really knowing.

Who was I referring to in that last paragraph, Lance or Barry?

 

[Echo]

Oh, and I am WAY faster and stronger today (at 38) than I was at 30.

 

[Hawkeye]

What I'm saying is, when you assume Bonds to be guilty when he has never failed a test, you are giving him the same treatment L'equipe gives Lance.

An athlete at the top of his game is accused in the media of using performance enhancers. He has never failed a test. Fellow athletes and other people say they saw him use performance enhancers. Past coaches and trainers are implicated with drug use. Everyone forms an opinion about his guilt or innocence, without really knowing.

Who was I referring to in that last paragraph, Lance or Barry?

Bonds is in a sport that joked about steroid testing and accepted it to recover from its own idiotic decisions. Now that baseball is forced to take a stand against steroids Bonds has sat out the entire season with an injury some say was not that serious.

Lance has always been in the spotlight of performance enhancers and has always tested negative.

We all know that Lance's relationships end poorly. And when that happens people say things to hurt others. It happens everyday and it will always happen.

Not to mention that all of His contracts state that if he tests positive it's all gone. All of it his life depends on negative tests. So you think he would risk that?

 

[Echo]

Bonds is in a sport that joked about steroid testing and accepted it to recover from its own idiotic decisions. Now that baseball is forced to take a stand against steroids Bonds has sat out the entire season with an injury some say was not that serious.

Lance has always been in the spotlight of performance enhancers and has always tested negative.

We all know that Lance's relationships end poorly. And when that happens people say things to hurt others. It happens everyday and it will always happen.

Not to mention that all of His contracts state that if he tests positive it's all gone. All of it his life depends on negative tests. So you think he would risk that?

You are completely missing the point.

 

[Senôr Lopez]

What I'm saying is, when you assume Bonds to be guilty when he has never failed a test, you are giving him the same treatment L'equipe gives Lance.

An athlete at the top of his game is accused in the media of using performance enhancers. He has never failed a test. Fellow athletes and other people say they saw him use performance enhancers. Past coaches and trainers are implicated with drug use. Everyone forms an opinion about his guilt or innocence, without really knowing.

Who was I referring to in that last paragraph, Lance or Barry?

Bravo Echo.......at least one other person out there is willing to view the issue in an objective fashion. You are correct, none of us really knows what happened in either case but at the very least you at least have to take accusations seriously, regardless of who the athlete is and not reject them out of hand.

 

[robdamanii]

Bravo Echo.......at least one other person out there is willing to view the issue in an objective fashion. You are correct, none of us really knows what happened in either case but at the very least you at least have to take accusations seriously, regardless of who the athlete is and not reject them out of hand.

In the case of what Echo is saying...

Bonds has never been tested, but there is a massive glut of circumstantial evidence surrounding him that he has used performance enhancers before. It's very easy to believe that he HAS used them, even without a test.

Lance has been CONTINUALLY tested, and has CONTINUALLY tested negative for performance enhancers. Even amid all the accusations, he has NEVER failed a test other than this B sample from years ago with a suspicious chain of control, unethical breaking of confidentiality and reports from the lab director's counterparts in several instances that have stated that EPO, which they tested for, has a much shorter life than 6 years.

Bonds is heavily suspected with no test administered.
Lance is suspected with dozens of negatives on his side.

I believe Lance before I believe Barry.

 

[Reactor]

I don't "Know" Barry Bonds is steroids. But there is plenty of evidence that points in that direction, other than one tabloid article. On the other hand there is no evidence that Lance Armstrong has used any performance enhancing drugs, other than one tabloid article.

The French have already condemded Lance on the basis of one tabloid article and are talking about taking action against him, which could presumably include stripping of titles. No one has talked about stripping Barry Bonds of any of his titles or records even though there is quite a bit of evidence he took steroids.

Barry Bonds is still, technically, a professional baseball player and might return to the game to break several important records. Lance Armstrong is retired. Bonds was not tested for steroids, lance is the most tested athelete in history.

I'm not absolutely condemming Barry Bonds, he hasn't had a trial and chance to defend himself. I am pointing out that there is a lot of evidence, including sworn grand jury testimony that Bonds used steroids to address a comment about Lance somehow getting preferred treatment in the press. There isn't a shred of evidence to support the argument that Lance Armstrong used drugs, other than this one highly suspect test on urine that might not even be his.

Bonds and Armstrong are treated differently, but not without reason.

 

[clancy98]

" said it matched anonymous urine samples from that Tour with medical statements signed by doctors, claiming that there were "characteristic, undeniable and consequent" signs of EPO in Armstrong's urine tests."

Did I read that wrong, or did it say that they tested an anonymous sample that some doctors "swore" was his?

So are they going on doctors testimony that says "Yep, I am a doctor and I am pretty sure this is Lances pee"

 

[Echo]

I'm not absolutely condemming Barry Bonds, he hasn't had a trial and chance to defend himself. I am pointing out that there is a lot of evidence, including sworn grand jury testimony that Bonds used steroids to address a comment about Lance somehow getting preferred treatment in the press. There isn't a shred of evidence to support the argument that Lance Armstrong used drugs, other than this one highly suspect test on urine that might not even be his.

Bonds and Armstrong are treated differently, but not without reason.

Are you saying you personally saw the grand jury testimony, have reviewed all of the statements and proceedings in the Balco case, and have actual evidence (other than looking at his stats) that his performance increased at the same time as he started using Balco? Or are you just going on what you read in the media.

 

[clancy98]

come on echo, with all the BS political threads on RM, you can't expect us to research em all. Thats what FOX news is for.

damn you're oppressive.

 

[Echo]

blah blah one tabloid article. blah blah one tabloid article

Dude, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but pretty much monthly there is some person or organization claiming they have proof Lance shot up.

I would like to believe he didn't. But it's not like out of the blue this is the first time it's ever been suggested. I would even venture to say that there is more circumstancial evidence against Lance than there is against Bonds.

And there is no concrete evidence against either of them.

 

[robdamanii]

Dude, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but pretty much monthly there is some person or organization claiming they have proof Lance shot up.

I would like to believe he didn't. But it's not like out of the blue this is the first time it's ever been suggested. I would even venture to say that there is more circumstancial evidence against Lance than there is against Bonds.

And there is no concrete evidence against either of them.

There IS a concrete set of negative tests from Lance's racing days. That is pretty concrete in itself. Now if they're all claiming that EVERY ONE of those tests were somehow screwed up, that's a different story.

At this point, the burden of proof is not on Lance. He has dozens of (-) tests on his side. It's the burden to prove that the sample is his, withing scientific limits and reasonable bounds.

 

[Hawkeye]

There IS a concrete set of negative tests from Lance's racing days. That is pretty concrete in itself. Now if they're all claiming that EVERY ONE of those tests were somehow screwed up, that's a different story.

At this point, the burden of proof is not on Lance. He has dozens of (-) tests on his side. It's the burden to prove that the sample is his, withing scientific limits and reasonable bounds.

Not to mention that is Wombtwin named Spear could be at fault here.

 

[Reactor]

Blah, blah, yadda yadd....claiming they have proof Lance shot up.

Funny, And they never produce the proof.


Bonds on the other hand admits to using Balco, and "supplements". He just claim he didn't know the supplements were steroids, even while his strength was doubling, and he was gaining huge amounts of muscle, at an age when everyone else is fighting just to keep their muscle. Bonds is either the Stupidest human being on earth, or he had to know the supplements were steroids, at the even an idiot would have to suspect. Come on I'm four years older than Bonds, if someone gave me a supplement that made me stronger than when I was 25, I'd wonder WTF it was. The leaked grand jury testimony (which is hersay) indicated he knew. He was never tested. Public opinion isn't a courtroom. We don't know what happened for sure, and MLB and the player's association is doing everything possible to make sure it stays that way. Public consensus is that Bonds was probably on the Juice, it could be wrong. Sports writers have gone as far as suggesting putting an asterix next to his name in the record books. For the record I don't think Bonds is alone. A lot of other MLB people "probably" used roids, including people like Mark Maguire, there's no proof.

Lance on the other hand was tested constantly, randomly, on and off season, he has hundreds of negative test results. The French made it point to harrass him to no end. He's never has a suspect drug test. He even donated money to the antidoping efforts, to keep the playing field level. Other than people looking to extort Lance for money making various claims, most of which are quickly proved false, there is no evidence Lance has ever used performance enhancing drugs.


I'm not saying Bonds is guilty, but I am saying there is a good objective reason why his alleged steroid use is treated differently than Lance by the media. Bonds has also gone out of the way to be an absolute jerk to the media. He even blamed them for marital problems, No it wasn't keeping a mistress in Scottsdale, it was the media.

 

[Echo]

Bonds has also gone out of the way to be an absolute jerk to the media.

Which just might have something to do with how stories regarding his steroid use are handled

I agree that Lance is probably more likely clean than Barry. But to judge one and not the other based on media reports is hypocrisy.

And my other point of contention was that you kept saying he was an "ok" player or a "pretty good" player.

Long before he was a dick to the media, and long before he bulked up and started hitting everything out of the park, he had hall of fame credentials.

 

[Inclag]

Just to add on, people have invested alot more emotionaly into Lance because of what he has done in the fight against cancer which in my opinion has caused most Americans to brush aside any idea that he may have used any performance enhancing drugs.

What would everyone think if Lance never went through cancer? Yes I know that he is probably the most tested athlete in the world, but remember testing is a game of catch-up. There have been many and most likely continue to be many athletes that will get away with cheating because there is no testing for certain substances or masking agents, or because we just don't know what these drugs are yet.

I would like to think that Lance was clean, but there have been more than a couple reports by people other than the French that accuse Lance of cheating. His ex-teamate has been caught cheating of which Lance has stayed oddly away from the subject. At some point you have to start asking questions and as unfair as it may seem include it as part of his legacy.

Does anyone ever think they are going to hear someday from a multi-million dollar athlete caught for using performance enhancing drugs admit that they were wrong? Addicted to the winning, money, and rush of being a premier athlete. I find that highly unlikely and even more unlikely that someone admit they used performance enhancers without ever getting caught.

 

[Silver]

Millar never tested positive for EPO...

 

[Reactor]

Which just might have something to do with how stories regarding his steroid use are handled

I agree that Lance is probably more likely clean than Barry. But to judge one and not the other based on media reports is hypocrisy.

And my other point of contention was that you kept saying he was an "ok" player or a "pretty good" player.

Long before he was a dick to the media, and long before he bulked up and started hitting everything out of the park, he had hall of fame credentials.

No offense intended, I think Randy Johnson is a "pretty good" pitcher, and he's won multiple Cy Young awards. I reserve "great" for someone how is destined to become a legend, like a guy who wins 20 games a season and leads the league in home runs. I think Barry will be a Hall of Famer, but I doubt he'll ever have the recognition of Babe Ruth, Cy Young, Nolan Ryan, Reggie Jackson, Willie Mays, or Hank Aaron.

Actually I think I originally said "A guy who was a average hitter", which was fairly accurate description of his .262 average in 1999. Maybe I could have been a little more generous.

 

[Reactor]

Millar never tested positive for EPO...

Lausanne, 17 February 2005 – The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) has confirmed the two-year suspension imposed on David Millar by the British Cycling Federation (BCF). However, the CAS changed the starting date of the suspension period, which means that Millar's ban will now end on 23 June 2006.

Further to a police investigation in 2004 against certain members of the team Cofidis, David Millar was arrested in June 2004 and held in custody by the French police. During his examination by the French authorities, Millar declared that he had taken erythropoietin (EPO) on three occasions : in August 2001 before the Tour of Spain, in May 2003 before the Dauphiné Libéré and in September 2003 before the World Elite Time Trial Championship. On the basis of such admission, the BCF decided to suspend Millar for a period of two years starting from 5 August 2004. The BCF did not impose the maximum sanction of four years in order to take into account the admission by Millar of his doping offences.

On 26 August 2004, Millar filed an appeal with the CAS against the decision made by the BCF in order to request that the suspension be reduced to one year and that the starting date of such suspension be fixed on 24 June 2004.

The case has been submitted to a Panel composed of Mr Quentin Byrne-Sutton, Geneva, Switzerland (President), Mr Jean-Jacques Bertrand, Paris, France and the Hon. Michael Beloff, London, England (arbitrators). A hearing was held on 24 January 2005 in Lausanne in the presence of David Millar, his legal representatives and with those of the British Cycling Federation.

The CAS Panel considered that the two-year suspension imposed by the BCF was proportionate to the circumstances of the case and was in accordance with the CAS jurisprudence. The Panel has however decided to slightly amend the BCF decision in order to change the starting date of the suspension. The Panel noted that, from the date of his arrest, David Millar was unable to compete any more and that, in addition, he promptly and voluntarily announced that he was withdrawing from the British Team for the Olympic Games in Athens. As a consequence, the CAS arbitrators decided that the two-year suspension should be calculated to run from 24 June 2004, as requested by Millar, and to end on 23 June 2006"

 

[Gusitar]

Dude, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but pretty much monthly there is some person or organization claiming they have proof Lance shot up.

I would like to believe he didn't. But it's not like out of the blue this is the first time it's ever been suggested. I would even venture to say that there is more circumstancial evidence against Lance than there is against Bonds.

And there is no concrete evidence against either of them.

I remember a trial wherein a poison was suspected and the prosecution had a test created, sensitive enough, to detect it. They got a conviction and, in light of this test, bodies were exhumed to search for the evidence of the poison's byproduct to explain other suspected poisonings. They got more convictions - on test results - for murder. Long story short: A "Do-Gooder" objective scientist dug up some other bodies who were not murdered and tested them. Turns out, the chemical appeared as a natural byproduct of either decomposition or embalming. Anyway, point is, how pathetic, to dig through old and incomplete evidence and, then as an official, pretend it is irrefutable. Politicians spun by their own 'journalist' and latent disappointment in their own culture's lack of achievement in a national sport have created their own stench to reside in. I like their bread, wine, cheese, some of the reticence with their political motivations and, none of their smoke! :eviltongu

 

[Hawkeye]

The more I think about it. If the French lab wanted results to be positive don't you think they could make it so?

 

[Senôr Lopez]

I am now officially tired of talking about Lance. Yes there are allegations, and no there is no concrete proof (or at least proof that can result in any consequences). So I will say this. When some of us hear accusations against Lance we question his integerity. Some of us hear accusations and believe him without question. This is an argument that will never end.....

 

[ridetoofast]

ever wonder how Lance feels?

 

[Reactor]

Bada bunk {rimshot}