[sanjuro]

There is a difference between everyone having healthcare, and everyone having healthcare but not paying for it. Something like 30% of the US population actually pays income tax. As part of that 30% paying for everyone else, I am of the belief that they can f* and die. If you want something, you pay for it. If you can't afford it, find a way to pay for it. Your problems aren't mine, and I don't bust my ass so that you can not have a job, or milk off me because you can't get a job that pays enough.

Can we go back to direct payment for doctors please? Write you check for services, costs are disclosed up front, and if you can't pay, best of luck.

Medicine is an industry, not a charity.

First of all, I think we are all in this together. You might make 6 figures, but if you came down with cancer, your bills would overwhelm your finances rather quickly if you didn't have insurance.

The Germans have a good system: 8% flat tax matched by your employer, and you can opt out if you make more than $72,000.

There is going to be a need for health care, which means there is going to be a need for paying for health care.

I'm not against private solutions, but it seems arbitrary how they dole out the care.

 

[stoney]

First of all, I think we are all in this together. You might make 6 figures, but if you came down with cancer, your bills would overwhelm your finances rather quickly if you didn't have insurance.

The Germans have a good system: 8% flat tax matched by your employer, and you can opt out if you make more than $72,000.

There is going to be a need for health care, which means there is going to be a need for paying for health care.

I'm not against private solutions, but it seems arbitrary how they dole out the care.

You're right, they would. That however, is why I pay through the nose for top level healthcare (actually my employer does, but I make about 15% less than peers at other firms because of it). My back surgery cost $50k, but only cost me $15 for my copay, because every month my company pays the equivalent of $1500/m so that my wife and I have access to that level of medical care. It is also a major reason for why I stay where I am, because the medical care is so damn good.

If the govt wants to fix our healthcare system they need to do 3-4 things:
1) Published pricing - Have the ability to shop your healthcare needs. This also creates competition.
2) Tort Reform - If a doctor makes a mistake, you are not entitled to 10x you lifetime potential earnings as payment. Your options when seeing the doctor are, a) Elective - You chose to be there, or b) Necessity - The consequences of not going are worse than the risk of going.
3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.
4) Education - Teach kids from a young age, and adults if needed, to eat healthier and to have more healthy and active lives.

Giving away healthcare to a society that doesn't know how to stay healthy, or even be healthy is just stupid.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

...
3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down...

Unfortunately, we don't really know what constitutes healthy food - the "experts" change their mind on a regular basis.

I suppose that a general shift to unprocessed foods would not be a bad thing...

 

[jonKranked]

3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.

I'm calling BS on this. Complete and utter tinfoil BS. There's plenty of healthy food out there. PLENTY. Fresh fruits and veggies are relatively easy to come by last I checked, same with things like grains, beans, tofu, raw nuts, and even anti-biotic free meat is readily available.

Last time I was at the grocery store, no one put a gun to my head and made me buy doritos or twinkies. Don't think I've ever actually seen that happen.

Does America have a problem eating poorly? Absolutely. Is it the fault of the food companies? No. Our species has an innate desire to eat what tastes sweet and sugary - when we were still living in caves and foraging for food, that was one of the ways people figured out what was edible. Food companies are just producing what sells. You have free market capitalism to thank for that.

Your argument is the equivalent of holding the makers of beer and liquor accountable for people who are alcoholics and get DUI's.


edit: its not just poor eating habits that are making people unhealthy, its increasingly sedentary lifestyles, and partially lack of portion control (overeating; yes, even eating too much healthy food is bad for you). I know people who have extremely healthy diets, yet are overweight because of lack of exercise.

 

[4xBoy]

this is about kid rock guys. where's his midget buddy that died? i bet social healthcare would have saved all 3 feet of him

I will pour out a forty in memory of little what's his name tonight.



No I won't, we don't have socialized beer in this country,....yet.

 

[X3pilot]

I will pour out a forty in memory of little what's his name tonight.

Joe C.

 

[X3pilot]

Your argument is the equivalent of holding the makers of beer and liquor accountable for people who are alcoholics and get DUI's.

Or holding gun makers accountable for the homicide rate. Oh wait...

 

[jonKranked]

Or holding gun makers accountable for the homicide rate. Oh wait...

The solution is more guns + training for everyone. The swiss lead by example.

 

[dante]

You're right, they would. That however, is why I pay through the nose for top level healthcare (actually my employer does, but I make about 15% less than peers at other firms because of it). My back surgery cost $50k, but only cost me $15 for my copay, because every month my company pays the equivalent of $1500/m so that my wife and I have access to that level of medical care. It is also a major reason for why I stay where I am, because the medical care is so damn good.

If the govt wants to fix our healthcare system they need to do 3-4 things:
1) Published pricing - Have the ability to shop your healthcare needs. This also creates competition.
2) Tort Reform - If a doctor makes a mistake, you are not entitled to 10x you lifetime potential earnings as payment. Your options when seeing the doctor are, a) Elective - You chose to be there, or b) Necessity - The consequences of not going are worse than the risk of going.
3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.
4) Education - Teach kids from a young age, and adults if needed, to eat healthier and to have more healthy and active lives.

Giving away healthcare to a society that doesn't know how to stay healthy, or even be healthy is just stupid.

Trickle Down Health Care... Cut the costs for the insurers and magically they'll offer free or reduced cost health care for all.

 

[jonKranked]

Trickle Down Health Care... Cut the costs for the insurers and magically they'll offer free or reduced cost health care for all.

 

[BurlyShirley]

If the govt wants to fix our healthcare system they need to do 3-4 things:
1) Published pricing - Have the ability to shop your healthcare needs. This also creates competition.

This is the only part of your post I agree with.

2) Tort Reform - If a doctor makes a mistake, you are not entitled to 10x you lifetime potential earnings as payment. Your options when seeing the doctor are, a) Elective - You chose to be there, or b) Necessity - The consequences of not going are worse than the risk of going.

Again, this is basically a non-issue. The CBO did a study and found that tort reform would save an average person <1% on their healthcare costs. It's just a talking point, and the fact that it's as high as #2 on your "things that must be done" list pretty much shows you don't know WTF needs to happen.

3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.

Wow, I remember a quote from you a couple months ago calling Obama a "full fledged socialist" and you come up with this? The government controls what foods companies can manufacture... what people are allowed to eat? Take it easy there Vlad.

4) Education - Teach kids from a young age, and adults if needed, to eat healthier and to have more healthy and active lives.

Who the hell didnt get this education as a child? The food pyramid? Exercise and a healthy diet will keep you healthy. The advice has been the same for as long as Ive been alive. Eat fruit, not twinkies....a real difficult concept there.

Giving away healthcare to a society that doesn't know how to stay healthy, or even be healthy is just stupid.

You may or may not realize this, but part of what makes this nation rank among the "unhealthy" is our POS medical system. We have lowered life expectancy, high infant mortality, etc. because people don't have access to decent care.

Also, someone still has to explain to me, which costs more medically:

A guy who is obese, a smoker and a non exerciser. Let's say he also has diabetes. He lives to 55 or 60 years old, dies of a heart attack.

Or a guy who is in shape, a runner, eats well, sees the doctor for check ups religiously. He gets cancer or breaks a hip at 65 lives another 20 years fighting cancers, doing rehab, generally just breaking down and getting old. Gets a knee replacement at some point, probably needs a couple knee scopes. He's eventually on a handfull of medications, uses medicare etc. His eyes go, needs glasses. Hearing goes, needs a hearing aid.


To me, it sounds like living longer is what costs more. And the one way to live longer is to live healthier... which is ulitmately more expensive because it takes you longer to die.

 

[dante]

This is the only part of your post I agree with.

My only question is what exactly that would've done to help lower his $50,000 back surgery? If TheJoker's only paying $15, is he really going to choose the hospital in the not-so-good-part-of-town with the 25 year old surgeon just out of med school because it's going to save the insurance company 20 or 30 thousand dollars? If the insurance company was paying for it, I'd choose the MOST expensive place, thinking that that would equal better care.

What's more, the insurance company might stop their "$15 copay for any/all surgeries", and either make you pay a percentage of the cost (ensuring that you choose the hospital that'll only charge you $20,000), *or* they'll just state that that surgery should only cost $20,000 and you're responsible for anything above and beyond that. I know that the difference between me going to an emergency room and me going to an urgent care clinic is several hundred dollars (out of my pocket), so when I needed X-rays, guess what, I headed to an urgent care clinic. If the cost had been the same to me, I would've just gone to the hospital and let insurance pick up the tab...

 

[jonKranked]

You may or may not realize this, but part of what makes this nation rank among the "unhealthy" is our POS medical system. We have lowered life expectancy, high infant mortality, etc. because people don't have access to decent care.

Burly, I just wanna clarify something here. There are 2 parts to the US medical system. There are the providers, and the insurers. The providers (doctors, surgeons, etc) here in America are among the best in the world. People (rich people) come here from other countries to have cutting edge procedures performed.

The insurance system is the portion that is broken. They are the ones from preventing patients (you, me, the joker, even RR) from getting the high quality care we need (and is available in this country) by control of access and manipulation of pricing. Insurance companies are also exempt from anti-trust laws, which means that its pretty easy for them to get away with just about anything they want.

Its not just patients that are getting screwed. I know a number of doctors who have left practicing medicine or are considering practicing medicine because of the insurance companies. My aunt used to run her own practice as a pediatrician. She sold it because of how FUBAR'd the situation became; she was working 60+ hours a week, and was barely making enough to cover her expenses. It wasn't worth the time and stress - all because of insurance, malpractice, etc.

 

[sanjuro]

If the govt wants to fix our healthcare system they need to do 3-4 things:
1) Published pricing - Have the ability to shop your healthcare needs. This also creates competition.
2) Tort Reform - If a doctor makes a mistake, you are not entitled to 10x you lifetime potential earnings as payment. Your options when seeing the doctor are, a) Elective - You chose to be there, or b) Necessity - The consequences of not going are worse than the risk of going.
3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.
4) Education - Teach kids from a young age, and adults if needed, to eat healthier and to have more healthy and active lives.

Giving away healthcare to a society that doesn't know how to stay healthy, or even be healthy is just stupid.

I don't understand why we can't have a public option and change the regulations, like interstate health care.

 

[jonKranked]

is he really going to choose the hospital in the not-so-good-part-of-town with the 25 year old surgeon just out of med school

this is an unrealistic scenario. The average age of a fresh graduate from a surgery program is 30. By the time they have completed internships and residencies - and can actually perform surgeries - the average age is 33. So no, unless its Doogie Howser, someone that's 25 years old isn't going to be operating on you. If someone that young IS performing operations, they sure as hell aren't gonna be at some random hospital in a bad part of town.

edit: just to provide some further clarification, a student needs to graduate med school before entering a surgery study program.

 

[dante]

this is an unrealistic scenario. The average age of a fresh graduate from a surgery program is 30. By the time they have completed internships and residencies - and can actually perform surgeries - the average age is 33. So no, unless its Doogie Howser, someone that's 25 years old isn't going to be operating on you. If someone that young IS performing operations, they sure as hell aren't gonna be at some random hospital in a bad part of town.

edit: just to provide some further clarification, a student needs to graduate med school before entering a surgery study program.

Ugh, ok, so I'll change that to a cheap Russian doctor instead of an expensive Indian or Jewish one. Happy? My point was that if you're not paying the actual costs of the operation, you're going to choose the most expensive option, not the cheapest.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Again, this is basically a non-issue. The CBO did a study and found that tort reform would save an average person <1% on their healthcare costs. It's just a talking point, and the fact that it's as high as #2 on your "things that must be done" list pretty much shows you don't know WTF needs to happen.

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

 

[dante]

Must spread rep

Actually, the more I think about this, the more ANGRY I get. My sister and her husband are conservatives, complaining about Socialism and Obama and whatever else the evil Lib'rals are doing... Except that they have 3 kids and aren't wealthy by any means (national median income maybe?). Definitely not rich enough to pay the $11k / kid that *my* school district spends. So the *only* reason they're not either a) impoverished or b) sending their kids to work in the coal mines is because of "Socialist" public education. They're basically reaching into my pocket and taking my money to pay for their kids education. I usually don't mind, as I think raising kids is far, far, far to expensive as it is (I'm putting away ~$1000/year into their 529s to help out), but Jesus H. F'ing Christ, you can't complain about Socialism and then utilize the socialist public schooling to educate your kids...

Unfortunately I can only rant about it on here, since I'd rather NOT piss off members of my family just to start an argument.

 

[sanjuro]

Actually, the more I think about this, the more ANGRY I get. My sister and her husband are conservatives, complaining about Socialism and Obama and whatever else the evil Lib'rals are doing... Except that they have 3 kids and aren't wealthy by any means (national median income maybe?). Definitely not rich enough to pay the $11k / kid that *my* school district spends. So the *only* reason they're not either a) impoverished or b) sending their kids to work in the coal mines is because of "Socialist" public education. They're basically reaching into my pocket and taking my money to pay for their kids education. I usually don't mind, as I think raising kids is far, far, far to expensive as it is (I'm putting away ~$1000/year into their 529s to help out), but Jesus H. F'ing Christ, you can't complain about Socialism and then utilize the socialist public schooling to educate your kids...

Unfortunately I can only rant about it on here, since I'd rather NOT piss off members of my family just to start an argument.

That's one of the reasons why I don't care for the conservative viewpoint, the deception they have to use with the average American.

 

[jonKranked]

That's one of the reasons why I don't care for the conservative viewpoint, the deception they have to use with the average American.

well they have to resort to deception, facts don't promote their agenda

 

[sanjuro]

I mean telling everyone we have the best health care in the world (we don't by any measurable standard), then wrapping up the public option as a "socialist" agenda, when most Americans don't understand that that the almost every Western country has a public HC system.

The worse is the Iraq invasion, which I will always believe was done to ensure a re-election for Bush. While there is no proof this is true, there is also the same amount of proof that Hussein was hoarding WMD's and support Al Queda.

 

[jonKranked]

I mean telling everyone we have the best health care in the world (we don't by any measurable standard), then wrapping up the public option as a "socialist" agenda, when most Americans don't understand that that the almost every Western country has a public HC system.

The worse is the Iraq invasion, which I will always believe was done to ensure a re-election for Bush. While there is no proof this is true, there is also the same amount of proof that Hussein was hoarding WMD's and support Al Queda.

actually, we have some of the best hospitals and surgeons in the world. its just that crappy monopoly insurances won't let us get to it.

 

[Pesqueeb]

well they have to resort to deception, facts don't promote their agenda

 

[X3pilot]

Actually, the more I think about this, the more ANGRY I get. My sister and her husband are conservatives, complaining about Socialism and Obama and whatever else the evil Lib'rals are doing... Except that they have 3 kids and aren't wealthy by any means (national median income maybe?). Definitely not rich enough to pay the $11k / kid that *my* school district spends. So the *only* reason they're not either a) impoverished or b) sending their kids to work in the coal mines is because of "Socialist" public education. They're basically reaching into my pocket and taking my money to pay for their kids education. I usually don't mind, as I think raising kids is far, far, far to expensive as it is (I'm putting away ~$1000/year into their 529s to help out), but Jesus H. F'ing Christ, you can't complain about Socialism and then utilize the socialist public schooling to educate your kids...

Unfortunately I can only rant about it on here, since I'd rather NOT piss off members of my family just to start an argument.

Why are you mad at me? I was going to rep you for your fine display of sarcasm. Not that I thought you were serious and was reping you for that.

 

[dante]

Why are you mad at me? I was going to rep you for your fine display of sarcasm. Not that I thought you were serious and was reping you for that.

Wha? No, I'm just getting more and more pissed off at people who claim to hate socialism and all it stands for, and yet are perfectly happy stealing MY MONEY to ensure their kids get a good education. Nothing to do with you, other than the fact that you happened to respond to one of my posts (ie, I was referring to my original post).

 

[laura]

Wha? No, I'm just getting more and more pissed off at people who claim to hate socialism and all it stands for, and yet are perfectly happy stealing MY MONEY to ensure their kids get a good education. Nothing to do with you, other than the fact that you happened to respond to one of my posts (ie, I was referring to my original post).

This needs another thread all of it's own.

 

[blue]

3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.

You spout laissez-faire at every turn, and then come out with this?

Whatever you say, Mr. Lebowski, once again reaffirming your positions as nothing more than wholly self-serving crocks of sh!t.

 

[laura]

3) Food production controls - Force food providers to make foods healthier. Reduce the #1 cause of helathcare bills in this country, and the bills will come down.

I think you are on to something here. I vote for total government control of food. No one to have food in their homes. Just feeding stations set up all over the country. You get three squares a day, pick them up at your leisure but don't expect to make any decisions yourself.

AND since the government is soooooooo suited to make helathy food choices for us, let's just have everyone eat what is provided in the public school meal programs. Then we don't have to re-invent the wheel. That ****'s healthy, right?

 

[X3pilot]

AND since the government is soooooooo suited to make helathy food choices for us, let's just have everyone eat what is provided in the public school meal programs. Then we don't have to re-invent the wheel. That ****'s healthy, right?

I know you're not into smart ass humor, but you just made me want fish sticks!

 

[jonKranked]

I know you're not into smart ass humor, but you just made me want fish sticks!

oh yea?

 

[dante]

This needs another thread all of it's own.

Blatant hypocrisy on the right? That could use an entire FORUM...

 

[Toshi]

Actually, the more I think about this, the more ANGRY I get. My sister and her husband are conservatives, complaining about Socialism and Obama and whatever else the evil Lib'rals are doing... Except that they have 3 kids and aren't wealthy by any means (national median income maybe?). Definitely not rich enough to pay the $11k / kid that *my* school district spends. So the *only* reason they're not either a) impoverished or b) sending their kids to work in the coal mines is because of "Socialist" public education. They're basically reaching into my pocket and taking my money to pay for their kids education. I usually don't mind, as I think raising kids is far, far, far to expensive as it is (I'm putting away ~$1000/year into their 529s to help out), but Jesus H. F'ing Christ, you can't complain about Socialism and then utilize the socialist public schooling to educate your kids...

Unfortunately I can only rant about it on here, since I'd rather NOT piss off members of my family just to start an argument.

It's only socialist if frothers think that it might benefit an undeserving black crack baby somewhere

 

[dante]

It's only socialist if frothers think that it might benefit an undeserving black crack baby somewhere

I'm definitely starting to think that socialism is good when it's something you can't afford on your own, and it's bad when it's going to provide something you already have. I can't afford to hire my own police and fire depts, so those are *good* examples of socialism. I also can't afford the $20,000/student that schools spend each year, so that's also *good*. However, I can afford (or have through work) my own health care, so Socialized Medicine is a *bad* thing. Basically it's a "what do I personally get out of it" type of greedy, self-centered way of thinking...

 

[kidwoo]

Basically it's a "what do I personally get out of it" type of greedy, self-centered way of thinking...

Dante, meet america

America, meet dante