[1000-Oaks]

This whining is getting out of hand; politicians are lying to us about what they'll do to "fight the high cost of health care in this country." Then they point out how much less health care costs in other countries.

News flash: In general, Americans don't exercise. They eat crap. They don't follow their doctors' advice. They avoid taking their medications. We are simply becoming a country of the obese.

Not so in other countries, where they listen to their doctors and take much better care of themselves. Yes, there are statistics on this and it's easily substantiated.

And guess what? After years of trashing their bodies Americans develop all kinds of grave illnesses, and it costs a fortune just to try to keep them alive. Just like your car, if you don't take care of it it's gonna fall apart on you and will cost a fortune to be repaired, if it even can be.

But politicians can't say "you folks are doing it to yourselves, your personal choices are why health care costs so darn much", because Americans don't accept responsibility for their actions.

And certain politicians are promoting that "not my fault" mindset just to get elected, at the expense of the citizens. And it's only going to get worse, as our society becomes less and less responsible, and more dependent on Uncle Sam.

Sad.

 

[jimmydean]

What about me? I work out, I don't eat crap and over the last 10 years, I went from paying NOTHING for 100% coverage to paying $480 a month for 70% coverage.

Did my health change? Nope, but the system sure has.

 

[kidwoo]

Yeah because god knows the only health issues that ever arise are lifestyle related.

For all your self enlightenment you really do see the world through a pin hole.

 

[Silver]

Not so in other countries, where they listen to their doctors and take much better care of themselves. Yes, there are statistics on this and it's easily substantiated.

You'd think that I would be shocked that there is a strong assertion of fact with no sources in your post.

I'm not, of course, given your track record.

 

[Westy]

I'm facing the potential of needing $20K a year in medicine that if I don't have will likely cripple me to the point where I will not be able to work. I can never really work for myself because I wouldn't be able to afford the insurance or medicine. If I ever go a minute without coverage even corporate plans do not have to cover me. I'm pretty ****ing fit otherwise.

 

[ohio]

I'm facing the potential of needing $20K a year in medicine that if I don't have will likely cripple me to the point where I will not be able to work. I can never really work for myself because I wouldn't be able to afford the insurance or medicine. If I ever go a minute without coverage even corporate plans do not have to cover me. I'm pretty ****ing fit otherwise.

Stop sucking my teat, you boat anchor.

 

[kidwoo]

I'm facing the potential of needing $20K a year in medicine that if I don't have will likely cripple me to the point where I will not be able to work. I can never really work for myself because I wouldn't be able to afford the insurance or medicine. If I ever go a minute without coverage even corporate plans do not have to cover me. I'm pretty ****ing fit otherwise.

Damn dude. And of course you can't change plans via a new employer now because of preexisting conditions stipulations right?

I'm not going to ask you to spew on the internet but I wish you luck.

 

[jimmydean]

Damn dude. And of course you can't change plans via a new employer now because of preexisting conditions stipulations right?

I'm not going to ask you to spew on the internet but I wish you luck.

Don't even get me started on the whole Pre-Existing sh!t. I spent about 6 months fighting with my insurance about my knee. Because I had surgery on it before (a previous injury) they tried to classify it as pre-ex.

Even though the surgery this time was for a new injury, same knee.

 

[Cant Climb]

Yeah because god knows the only health issues that ever arise are lifestyle related.

For all your self enlightenment you really do see the world through a pin hole.

If people exercise 30 minutes a day 4times per week Health care costs could be dramatically reduced (30-40%)...i think that's what he saying......

Diabetes, Heart Disease, High blood pressure, strokes etc.....lifestyle stuff.

You probably know this....

 

[jimmydean]

If people exercise 30 minutes a day 4times per week Health care costs could be dramatically reduced (30-40%)...i think that's what he saying......

Diabetes, Heart Disease, High blood pressure, strokes etc.....lifestyle stuff.

You probably know this....

Had I not been playing soccer twice a week, I would not have torn my knee. I have never injured myself on the couch.

My high blood pressure is due to work/school and not diet/exercise.

 

[ohio]

Had I not been playing soccer twice a week, I would not have torn my knee. I have never injured myself on the couch.

My high blood pressure is due to work/school and not diet/exercise.

Ditto. I ruptured my achilles this year playing soccer.

Side note is that the surgery instantly maxed out my $2500 deductible on my HSA (health savings account, if you're not familiar), which means I have now pursued every possible treatment for every ailment I can find, because everything is now free to me until the end of the year. The HSA was supposed to save my insurer money and encourage more responsible consumer behavior.

Instead, it has turned a very healthy young fella into a money pit.

 

[jimmydean]

If Obama's health care plain lifts the pre-existing clause and nothing else, I will celebrate.

 

[kidwoo]

If people exercise 30 minutes a day 4times per week Health care costs could be dramatically reduced (30-40%)...i think that's what he saying......

Diabetes, Heart Disease, High blood pressure, strokes etc.....lifestyle stuff.

You probably know this....

Of course. But that's only part of the story.


Talk to my 32 year old buddy who rides 100+ miles a week, eats very healthily and drinks very little who found out last year he had lymphoma around his heart.

Fully insured, 3 hours from one of the best cancer centers in the country and his insurance wouldn't pay for a treatment plan that's been used for over a decade because it was deemed 'experimental'. So in order to best insure that he actually lives (whining bastard), he opted for the treatment any way. He's now in full remission and in a lifetime of debt because his insurance which he's paid for years, decided they need to come up with this shlt to save money.

So I get really pissed when people try to diffuse very real situations with cute half solutions to a much bigger problem. Sure it's a part of the health system complaints but it's far from the whole story.

edit:
And something that I'm actually amused by considering the source of this thread: Obama said exactly this regarding preventive health education in the last debate. Oaks for obama 08.

 

[1000-Oaks]

Better in debt than dead, my GF's best friend is a registered nurse in Scotland and said if she ever gets sick or injured to immediately put her on a plane to the US, cost be damned.

In Scotland (free national health care) they just let you die if your care is going to be expensive. She's seen it happen countless times. There's only so much money to go around (and the national plan is still bankrupting the country), so doctors choose which patients will benefit most from care.

Which do you prefer? Free but limited care, or pay for private insurance and live? (possibly with debt)

 

[1000-Oaks]

And let's not forget that the big insurance companies operate on a profit of just a few percent, yet are constantly called "greedy" or evil.

What percent profit does Apple make? 20%? How come people aren't picketing their headquarters?

 

[blue]

Better in debt than dead, my GF's best friend is a registered nurse in Scotland and said if she ever gets sick or injured to immediately put her on a plane to the US, cost be damned.

In Scotland (free national health care) they just let you die if your care is going to be expensive. She's seen it happen countless times. There's only so much money to go around (and the national plan is still bankrupting the country), so doctors choose which patients will benefit most from care.

Which do you prefer? Free but limited care, or pay for private insurance and live? (possibly with debt)

Bullsh!t anecdotal stories<factual evidence

United Kingdom
total population: 78.85 years
male: 76.37 years
female: 81.46 years (2008 est.)

United States
total population: 78.14 years
male: 75.29 years
female: 81.13 years (2008 est.)

And they WILL let you die here if you can't pay for chronic illness etc.

 

[kidwoo]

Better in debt than dead, )

Those two don't have to be the only choices you know. THAT's the complaint with the current system. You get that right?

Which do you prefer? Free but limited care, or pay for private insurance and live? (possibly with debt

Those aren't the only two scenarios.

How much does scotland spend on defense? Foreign aid? Bailouts to wallstreet?


Again you're not making much of a case by implying that what goes on in scotland is the inevitible conclusion of an alternative health care system in the US. You do know that MANY other countries have both publicly funded or assisted healthcare and some of the healthiest longest living populations on the planet right?

 

[jimmydean]

And let's not forget that the big insurance companies operate on a profit of just a few percent, yet are constantly called "greedy" or evil.

What percent profit does Apple make? 20%? How come people aren't picketing their headquarters?

When has Apple made a judgment call on who lives or dies based on bottom line?

Not sure where you get the "just a few percent" because they turn one hell of a large profit. A lot of insurance companies invested (and lost) in tech stocks. The money THEY lost gets passed on to the consumers.

 

[Cant Climb]

I hear what all you guys are saying......it just comes down to cost of care.

Preventive health would reduce overall costs. Alot of stuff is preventable and preventing that stuff would reduce premiums for everyone.

Kidwoo - you buddy must have not-so-good insurance because the insurance part of health insurance has not changed that much. Premiuns have gone up and employers structure their benefit packages to save money. But TRUE insurance still exsists with decent coverage. Think of a small company with 120 employess, if someone gets extremely sick and builds a million dollar bill then TRUE insurance should pay for that........it should come from a bucket of money the Insurance company has set aside. This Insurance cost is a fraction of everyones monthly premium.....its money paid into a Pot that truely gives Insurance. For routine care the patient and company could possible bare the burden of the cost in dollars or next years premium. But at a certain level really sick people are covered by everyone.....an amount is usually set like 100K or something, it varies. Sorry to hear about his unfortunate health, that's awful....

 

[Westy]

Friend of mine just started a company doing Medical tourism. Basically connecting people who need major healthcare but can't afford it in this country. He has contacts in India with American trained doctors with the same level of facilities we can get here. We aren't talking about fake titties here, heart surgury/cancer treatment type stuff. Talk about outsourcing.

 

[kidwoo]

Kidwoo - you buddy must have not-so-good insurance because the insurance part of health insurance has not changed that much. Premiuns have gone up and employers structure their benefit packages to save money. But TRUE insurance still exsists with decent coverage. Think of a small company with 120 employess, if someone gets extremely sick and builds a million dollar bill then TRUE insurance should pay for that........it should come from a bucket of money the Insurance company has set aside. This Insurance cost is a fraction of everyones monthly premium.....its money paid into a Pot that truely gives Insurance. For routine care the patient and company could possible bare the burden of the cost in dollars or next years premium. But at a certain level really sick people are covered by everyone.....an amount is usually set like 100K or something, it varies. Sorry to hear about his unfortunate health, that's awful....

Try 20K

Blue Cross Blue shield is 'real insurance'. Like I said, his problems stem from the company's allocation of the best treatment option as 'experimental', even though stanford has been using this treatment regime for years with great success.

It's not a case of having or not having coverage. It's his insurance company (and mine actually) deeming a valid treatment as ineligible because it saves them money.

This is my story, I'd be surprised if it's the only one like this you've heard.

 

[Toshi]

Friend of mine just started a company doing Medical tourism. Basically connecting people who need major healthcare but can't afford it in this country. He has contacts in India with American trained doctors with the same level of facilities we can get here. We aren't talking about fake titties here, heart surgury/cancer treatment type stuff. Talk about outsourcing.

this practice raises major medicolegal and ethical issues with followup care and liability...

 

[jimmydean]

this practice raises major medicolegal and ethical issues with followup care and liability...

So you're saying I should get my Viagra local? But the email said I would say a ton of money.

 

[Westy]

this practice raises major medicolegal and ethical issues with followup care and liability...

Not my business plan.

 

[Cant Climb]

Try 20K

Blue Cross Blue shield is 'real insurance'. Like I said, his problems stem from the company's allocation of the best treatment option as 'experimental', even though stanford has been using this treatment regime for years with great success.

It's not a case of having or not having coverage. It's his insurance company (and mine actually) deeming a valid treatment as ineligible because it saves them money.

This is my story, I'd be surprised if it's the only one like this you've heard.

I think i follow you....not sure they didn't pay to save money but i can see how it would piss him off.

Insurance companys have to have some boundry's and cant just pay for any expiremental treatment but you'd think they might take into consideration "appeals" in certain instances.....but due to filings etc., they might even be limited in the exceptions they can grant.

 

[Silver]

this practice raises major medicolegal and ethical issues with followup care and liability...

Major insurance companies are starting to do it too. I'm sure you know how much cheaper a multi-organ transplant is in Thailand...

 

[narlus]

when i was in Mexico this past spring there was a guy from Maine who flew down to have a ton of work done for a lot cheaper...it was his 2nd time down there.

 

[kidwoo]

Insurance companys have to have some boundry's and cant just pay for any expiremental treatment but you'd think they might take into consideration "appeals" in certain instances.....but due to filings etc., they might even be limited in the exceptions they can grant.

I agree but this wasn't some guys with bones in their noses dancing around a burning frog.

Stanford cancer center. Decade of successful treatment history with the regime in question. Recommended by doctors in Reno, Davis and Sacramento.

What's been interesting is the willingness of those who have been treating him to cut him some slack. They're cutting themselves short because they know he's getting dicked.

 

[jimmydean]

Major insurance companies are starting to do it too. I'm sure you know how much cheaper a multi-organ transplant is in Thailand...

Boobs and a slit?

 

[ohio]

Insurance companys have to have some boundry's and cant just pay for any expiremental treatment but you'd think they might take into consideration "appeals" in certain instances.....but due to filings etc., they might even be limited in the exceptions they can grant.

You've been posting a lot about how is *should* be or how you'd *think* it would work, but you don't seem to get the specifics of what it is. We all understand the definition of "insurance."

Quick lesson. Consumers are insensitive to the price of treatment (not insurance, treatment) because lives are at stake. The free market response to price insensitivity is to raise prices exhorbitantly (as pharma cos do). Insurance companies, who then must compete in a price-sensitive market, have to find a way to reconcile sky-rocketing treatment costs. They do this by ****ing the consumer with any loophole they can find or create, whether or not that means life or death. Without government advocacy for the consumer, we will continue to get ****ed until healthcare is so expensive we choose to die instead, thus causing falling revenues in the healthcare industry.

 

[Cant Climb]

They do this by ****ing the consumer with any loophole they can find or create, whether or not that means life or death.

It can be the employer buying cheaper benefits that screw people over....

You could have a PPO this year and next year reup for the 'same' PPO, so you think. But what happens is your company bought a cheaper benefit. You see it as the same PPO but it very well may be stripped down without your knowledge. The plan description you see is not the whole picture........just a high level view.

Your employer can line-by-line eliminate benefits.......to save money on sky rocketing costs. You'd be amazed how intricate plan designs can get.....

I just don't like the attack on ALL insurance companys, not all of them are trying to hoard as much money as possible. Many are just pricing and trending to what cost of care dictates.....

 

[Silver]

You've been posting a lot about how is *should* be or how you'd *think* it would work, but you don't seem to get the specifics of what it is. We all understand the definition of "insurance."

Quick lesson. Consumers are insensitive to the price of treatment (not insurance, treatment) because lives are at stake. The free market response to price insensitivity is to raise prices exhorbitantly (as pharma cos do). Insurance companies, who then must compete in a price-sensitive market, have to find a way to reconcile sky-rocketing treatment costs. They do this by ****ing the consumer with any loophole they can find or create, whether or not that means life or death. Without government advocacy for the consumer, we will continue to get ****ed until healthcare is so expensive we choose to die instead, thus causing falling revenues in the healthcare industry.

Economists have a word for that. Inelas...something or other.

There's also a huge problem with asymmetrical information. Just a couple of good economic reasons that markets are inefficient for healthcare.

 

[ohio]

I just don't like the attack on ALL insurance companys, not all of them are trying to hoard as much money as possible. Many are just pricing and trending to what cost of care dictates.....

But ALL insurance companies are faced with the same challenges, and without exception they have all ****ed the consumer, whether intentionally or not.

I've just finished some consulting work for a health insurance provider. My clients were really good people. They desperately wanted to get people better treatment, sooner. They wanted to get them more information up front, and help people better understand the repercussions of their decisions and behaviors. Why wouldn't they. It's a win for both sides. And we may have been able to find some incremental improvement in care and savings for the client. However, the system they function within ensures that this will never be a magnitude change, nor drastic enough to stay ahead of the growing costs of treatment.

The system is broken. Do you disagree with this?

 

[1000-Oaks]

But ALL insurance companies are faced with the same challenges, and without exception they have all ****ed the consumer, whether intentionally or not.

People rarely question our doctors, but they bill an extraordinary amount of fraudulent "services" to the insurance companies. One friend of mine quit her job working in a doctor's office when she discovered massive fraud going on behind the scenes, and it had been going on for years. Another friend turned in a dentist she caught submitting false claims in her name. This stuff happens all the time. How can insurance companies follow up on each claim to make sure it's legit? They just pay the bill and the doctors keep filing bogus claims. In the end it's the consumer who pays in the form of higher premiums.

Just one more reason health care costs so much.

 

[Straya]

How can insurance companies follow up on each claim to make sure it's legit? They just pay the bill and the doctors keep filing bogus claims. In the end it's the consumer who pays in the form of higher premiums.Just one more reason health care costs so much.

Yeah just accept it and don't do anything about it, its not like its important or anything.

 

[kidwoo]

People rarely question our doctors, but they bill an extraordinary amount of fraudulent "services" to the insurance companies. One friend of mine quit her job working in a doctor's office when she discovered massive fraud going on behind the scenes, and it had been going on for years. Another friend turned in a dentist she caught submitting false claims in her name. This stuff happens all the time. How can insurance companies follow up on each claim to make sure it's legit? They just pay the bill and the doctors keep filing bogus claims. In the end it's the consumer who pays in the form of higher premiums.

Just one more reason health care costs so much.

And doctors, hospitals often do this because they get sick of insurance companies denying payment. My orthopedic explained this to me when I started paying out of pocket and I asked why the charges were less.

Pretty fvcked up system as you see.


One that could use some change™

 

[trailhacker]

And let's not forget that the big insurance companies operate on a profit of just a few percent, yet are constantly called "greedy" or evil.

What percent profit does Apple make? 20%? How come people aren't picketing their headquarters?

Apple products are a luxury. Healthcare is a neccesity. Thats about one of the stupidest comparisons I have seen yet.

Care to link to something (besides a right wing hack) to back up that "few" % claim?
Insurance companies are big, no, huge business. They make lots of profit and are under no obligation to share any profit with there "customers", especially in the form of price reductions. If they aren't ALL beholden to stockholders than at least most are. And stockholders don't care whether you or I live or die. They are in it for the profit.

If I think Apple charges too much money I don't have to buy there products. In fact, I more or less do, and don't own anything Apple.
I make that choice.
If my spleen ruptures I can't very well decide to do nothing about it and am at the mercy of my insurance. And although I can opt out of my company insurance there is no way I can buy my own insurance for cheaper and certainly not equal coverage for my money.

You are all about throwing the "socialism" label around. Although I think you have proven you really don't quite understand what that really means.
If this is socialism then so be it:
Healthcare should be a basic provision. Like education. If you have the money you can get the very best of the best, but even if you have nothing you can get the basics.

 

[Cant Climb]

The system is broken. Do you disagree with this?

Of course it's broken to a degree.

But people being held accountable for their lifesyle has to be a bigger part of the equation. That alone will not fix the system.......Pharma costs have sky rocketed, FDA is partly to blame, Medical devices are excessively priced.......certain segments of the healthcare industry make too much money from helathcare.

Insurance companies work to squeeze costs from doctors and hospitals using their membership as leverage.....should they being doing this......?......to a degree, but targeting doctors may be missing the mark.

Pharmacy companies are just running wild.......capitalism at its best.

 

[Cant Climb]

Insurance companies are big, no, huge business. They make lots of profit and are under no obligation to share any profit with there "customers", especially in the form of price reductions.

This statement is not true.

Blue's plans are not-for-profit insurance companies. However they negotiate with profit driven healthcare segments to set prices. Doctors are often squeezed in the middle.

It also varys from state to state, based on the degree of auditing and regulation.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Of course it's broken to a degree.

But people being held accountable for their lifesyle has to be a bigger part of the equation. That alone will not fix the system.......Pharma costs have sky rocketed, FDA is partly to blame, Medical devices are excessively priced.......certain segments of the healthcare industry make too much money from helathcare.

Insurance companies work to squeeze costs from doctors and hospitals using their membership as leverage.....should they being doing this......?......to a degree, but targeting doctors may be missing the mark.

Pharmacy companies are just running wild.......capitalism at its best.

So, let's examine this experiment:

Over a period of, say, 20 or 40 years, to allow society to adjust, dial down insurance. All insurance. Go back to cash up front, save or borrow from Grandma. The hidden tax extracted by the insurance "industry" will be gone. Frivolous health offerings will have proved unprofitable (not sure I can defend that, people are foolish). People will stop rebuilding on flood plains.