Quantcast

Whining about high health care costs...

1000-Oaks

Monkey
May 8, 2003
778
0
Simi Valley, CA
Apple products are a luxury. Healthcare is a neccesity. Thats about one of the stupidest comparisons I have seen yet.

Care to link to something (besides a right wing hack) to back up that "few" % claim?
Insurance companies are big, no, huge business. They make lots of profit and are under no obligation to share any profit with there "customers", especially in the form of price reductions. If they aren't ALL beholden to stockholders than at least most are. And stockholders don't care whether you or I live or die. They are in it for the profit.

If I think Apple charges too much money I don't have to buy there products. In fact, I more or less do, and don't own anything Apple.
I make that choice.
If my spleen ruptures I can't very well decide to do nothing about it and am at the mercy of my insurance. And although I can opt out of my company insurance there is no way I can buy my own insurance for cheaper and certainly not equal coverage for my money.

You are all about throwing the "socialism" label around. Although I think you have proven you really don't quite understand what that really means.
If this is socialism then so be it:
Healthcare should be a basic provision. Like education. If you have the money you can get the very best of the best, but even if you have nothing you can get the basics.

Back to personal attacks already, eh?

The reality is insurance companies have a profit margin of about five percent, and as private companies are under no obligation to provide "welfare" service to this country. They are a business, same as any other. If you don't like it, or you think they're making a fortune, why don't you start your own insurance company and "get rich", as you say they are? If it was such a great business, why aren't people lining up to form new insurance companies?

Speaking of not understanding, healthcare is NOT a basic provision, nor is eduction. As a society we CHOOSE to provide education to our children; it is not a "right" or a law of the universe. And our society may decide to provide health care too. But that does NOT make it a "right", no matter how entitled you personally feel.

If your spleen ruptures you are NOT at the "mercy" of your insurance company. Stop being a victim. YOU entered a contract with the company for a certain amount of care for a certain monthly fee. No more, no less. If you are unhappy with the contract, you should have bought a plan that you would be satisfied with.

Is it Toyota's fault if you buy a car that gets lower fuel economy than you like? Is it the Dish TV's fault if you don't order the movie channels, then are pissed because you can't watch HBO? Is it your car insurance company's fault if you only buy liability insurance, then complain when you crash your car and they don't pay to have it repaired?

Give it some thought.
 

1000-Oaks

Monkey
May 8, 2003
778
0
Simi Valley, CA
And doctors, hospitals often do this because they get sick of insurance companies denying payment.
When do insurance companies deny payment?

When the member commits lies on his or her application about pre-existing conditions, which later cost a fortune? When the member has sevices performed that aren't covered by the policy? (Shouldn't the member read his or her policy before it's purchased, so they know what's covered and what isn't?)

Auto insurance companies are allowed to charge more if you have DUI's or speeding tickets, how are pre-existing conditions any different? Why are health insurance companies held to a different standard?
 

1000-Oaks

Monkey
May 8, 2003
778
0
Simi Valley, CA
It might come as a surprise, but insurance companies actually subsidize premiums in some areas. San Diego for example; insurance companies spend more each year on those members than they collect in fees. They do this so that rates are more consistent accross the state.

But is it right that someone in Redding pays more than they should just so someone in San Diego can pay less? What's fair?
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,528
15,753
Portland, OR
Auto insurance companies are allowed to charge more if you have DUI's or speeding tickets, how are pre-existing conditions any different? Why are health insurance companies held to a different standard?
Because a DUI is avoidable where a genetic defect is not. Also, if I am treated for something under company A, then I change jobs (or in my case, my company is purchased) and the insurance is different, then the new insurance can deny my treatment for pre-ex.

I can't continue coverage under the old insurance and the new insurance denies me for pre-ex.

I can change polices with the same POS truck all day.

Awesome.
 

Defenestrated

Turbo Monkey
Mar 28, 2007
1,657
0
Earth
1000 Oaks how do you explain the fact that Australia has a higher obesity rate, cheaper health care, and a longer life expectancy than the U.S?

ps you're an idiot
 
Last edited:

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,203
1,391
NC
I feel pretty strongly about this issue and started a long-winded post replying to all of the arguments 1000-Oaks has been making but it's hard and time consuming to reply to a post where literally every sentence is a massively flawed argument.

I'd just like to state one thing to address a whole bunch of the points: any stupid comparison to auto insurance is a complete failure. If you cannot see the thousand differences between having a history of accidents because of your own problematic driving and a preexisting condition like psoriasis or cancer or a million other life-altering illnesses then you should probably sit out having a discussion with grown-ups.
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
So, let's examine this experiment:

Over a period of, say, 20 or 40 years, to allow society to adjust, dial down insurance. All insurance. Go back to cash up front, save or borrow from Grandma. The hidden tax extracted by the insurance "industry" will be gone. Frivolous health offerings will have proved unprofitable (not sure I can defend that, people are foolish). People will stop rebuilding on flood plains.
Health Insurance companies negoatiate with hospitals, doctors, and pharma. The use thier membership as leverage to get discounts and save you money (ALOT of money). The "tax" is just an additional percentage (3-4%) they throw on for the very sick. It's a cost spread to every member who pays a premium, but it is true insurance. If you have a small company and someone is very ill or has qunituplets or something, the employer will not be charged for this......however if his employees are generally unhealthy you may see a huge premium increase the next year. Conversely if all the employees are healthy....their are a few options to take to have a reduced premium.

What i am saying is that there are true savings that Health Insurers offer. They negoatiate with a mob of members. They garuntee the very ill proper medical service. But they can only do so much......it is a multi-headed monster. Pharma is huge, hospitals carry alot of power, Heath Insurers have leverage but doctors are just a bunch of individuals, they can get squeezed hard.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
I'd just like to state one thing to address a whole bunch of the points: any stupid comparison to auto insurance is a complete failure. If you cannot see the thousand differences between having a history of accidents because of your own problematic driving and a preexisting condition like psoriasis or cancer or a million other life-altering illnesses then you should probably sit out having a discussion with grown-ups.
I don't know... what if you're born Asian or a woman or something and are genetically predisposed to being a dangerous driver?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
When do insurance companies deny payment?

When the member commits lies on his or her application about pre-existing conditions, which later cost a fortune? When the member has sevices performed that aren't covered by the policy? (Shouldn't the member read his or her policy before it's purchased, so they know what's covered and what isn't?)

Auto insurance companies are allowed to charge more if you have DUI's or speeding tickets, how are pre-existing conditions any different? Why are health insurance companies held to a different standard?
Now you're just talking out of your ass if you think this is some sort of proper justification.

I've never had a DUI, I've never had any sort of chronic ailment that could ever be a pre-existing condition and I sure as hell have never lied on an application. Assuming everyone else with BLUE CROSS AND SHIELD falls in your categorization is absurd.
So with the memory of going to my orthopedic whom I've known for years when I separated my shoulder this past spring and being told my insurance is no longer accepted there because the office lost money for years in unpaid claims from said insurance company.........all I gotta say is.....


Fvck you you deliberate moron :)

You really are going to have to find yourself with some life threatening disease or injury to have this made clear to you how messed up our current system is.

And also fvck you for being too lazy to do a 2 second google search to help your case

http://www.allbusiness.com/services/business-services/4552511-1.html

http://www.joepaduda.com/archives/000025.html
 
Last edited:

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,241
9,123
So, let's examine this experiment:

Over a period of, say, 20 or 40 years, to allow society to adjust, dial down insurance. All insurance. Go back to cash up front, save or borrow from Grandma. The hidden tax extracted by the insurance "industry" will be gone. Frivolous health offerings will have proved unprofitable (not sure I can defend that, people are foolish). People will stop rebuilding on flood plains.
although this would work for health care for common ailments this model totally fails for rare (and some not so rare ailments). consider breast cancer: chemo, radiation, a mastectomy with node dissection, and reconstructive surgery afterwards can easily run over $200k when all is said and done. no sane person will save up for that magnitude of expense, even though this is one of the more common malignancies.
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
Back to personal attacks already, eh?
If the shoe fits?
The reality is insurance companies have a profit margin of about five percent, and as private companies are under no obligation to provide "welfare" service to this country. They are a business, same as any other.
And there would be the problem; health care should NOT be a for profit business. Like education, a basic form should be available for every citizen and if you have the means you can opt up for a better service.
Speaking of not understanding, healthcare is NOT a basic provision...
it is not a "right"...
But that does NOT make it a "right", no matter how entitled you personally feel.

Give it some thought.
Yes, speaking of undestanding, if you read what I wrote, I said it "SHOULD" be a basic provision. Never said it should be a right, what ever that means.
Here, I made it stand out for you:
Healthcare should be a basic provision. Like education. If you have the money you can get the very best of the best, but even if you have nothing you can get the basics.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,528
15,753
Portland, OR
And there would be the problem; health care should NOT be a for profit business. Like education, a basic form should be available for every citizen and if you have the means you can opt up for a better service.

Yes, speaking of undestanding, if you read what I wrote, I said it "SHOULD" be a basic provision. Never said it should be a right, what ever that means.
Here, I made it stand out for you:
As I understand it, that's how it is in Australia. Everyone has a base coverage, your employer can offer improved coverage, and if you want and have the means, you can purchase premium coverage.

For a routine doc visit, it might take you 30-45 days to get an appointment and you see a community doctor. If you have premium coverage, you have a personal doctor you can see at any time.

But an emergency is basically the same for everyone.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Back to personal attacks already, eh?

The reality is insurance companies have a profit margin of about five percent, and as private companies are under no obligation to provide "welfare" service to this country. They are a business, same as any other. If you don't like it, or you think they're making a fortune, why don't you start your own insurance company and "get rich", as you say they are? If it was such a great business, why aren't people lining up to form new insurance companies?

Speaking of not understanding, healthcare is NOT a basic provision, nor is eduction. As a society we CHOOSE to provide education to our children; it is not a "right" or a law of the universe. And our society may decide to provide health care too. But that does NOT make it a "right", no matter how entitled you personally feel.

If your spleen ruptures you are NOT at the "mercy" of your insurance company. Stop being a victim. YOU entered a contract with the company for a certain amount of care for a certain monthly fee. No more, no less. If you are unhappy with the contract, you should have bought a plan that you would be satisfied with.

Is it Toyota's fault if you buy a car that gets lower fuel economy than you like? Is it the Dish TV's fault if you don't order the movie channels, then are pissed because you can't watch HBO? Is it your car insurance company's fault if you only buy liability insurance, then complain when you crash your car and they don't pay to have it repaired?

Give it some thought.
So, I assume you're going to ignore the post where I pointed out that healthcare is provided inefficiently by markets due to a couple (I cited two, there are more) of very fundamental requirements for an efficient market being missing.

You're trying to put together one of those 15 piece puzzles they have for 2 year olds, but you're missing 4 pieces and you can't figure out why your picture doesn't look like the one on the box...