[drkenan]

No doubt you guys have read about the Whole Foods boycott because CEO John Mackey put out an opinion piece in the Wall St Journal suggesting an alternative to Obama's proposed health care reform. If not, read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8216685.stm

I'm always up for a corporate protest, so I was on board UNTIL I actually read the piece. It makes total sense. Granted, I don't work in the industry but something has to be done and I feel like his ideas are definitely a step in the right direction.

What's even worse is that most of the people picketing outside Whole Foods have probably never even read it. This is no better than all the crazy rednecks that believed Palin when she was touting "death panels" a few weeks ago or the town hall protesters that believe all the opinions they hear on Fox & Friends.

His ideas:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

 

[RUFUS]

Thanks for posting both. How the hell do you get upset with what he said. First it is his opinion only and secondly he makes some great statements and some great ideas.

Some people, check that, most people are just fuc^ing idiots and will get pissed off and up in arms for almost no reason.

 

[stevew]

while vacationing in colorado.....no one is upset in boulder at the moment....

 

[4xBoy]

It is sad the flaws in the medical system in the country, but I guess we have lobbyists to thank for it all.

 

[Silver]

Thanks for posting both. How the hell do you get upset with what he said. First it is his opinion only and secondly he makes some great statements and some great ideas.

Some people, check that, most people are just fuc^ing idiots and will get pissed off and up in arms for almost no reason.

Whole Foods has made themselves marketing to left wing yuppie types.

It wouldn't be a good idea for Brian France to write an op-ed about how gay marriage, sobriety and veganism were directions that America needs to desperately move in, y'know?

 

[drkenan]

Funny part is that Whole Foods obviously has an amazing benefits package for their employees who work more than 30 hours per week. From what I understand, John Mackey is vegan and has done a lot for environmental and animal compassion concerns.

You would think that would override an opinion piece in the WSJ - especially one that actually makes real sense.

 

[Silver]

You would think that would override an opinion piece in the WSJ - especially one that actually makes real sense.

How did it make real sense?

Specifics, please.

 

[sanjuro]

"While all of us empathize with those who are sick, how can we say that all people have more of an intrinsic right to health care than they have to food or shelter?

Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges."

This is the part that bugs me, not saying that eat healthy food bought at Whole Foods is an alternative to medical care.

I am for insurance reform, but at some point there has to be an option offered to people does not involve profits.

From poor people visiting the emergency room because they can't afford regular checkups to "pre-existing conditions", there is some serious downsides to corporate health care. And we all pay for it.

Of course, private health care can be vastly superior to a public choice, but having no choice is not the solution.

 

[syadasti]

Regardless of the CEO/WSJ/etc...if I had a Wegmans closer than a Whole Foods, I'd go there instead because it has better produce and prepared foods and a much wider selection of everything that appeals to broader customer base, so you can get anything you need, not just premium/health/green goods. Wegmans consistently ranks at the top for worker treatment too, so Whole Foods isn't anything special in that regard either. Both are big businesses, so PR here or there isn't going hide the fact that the bottom line is the bottom line.

The far left crowd never liked Whole Foods to begin with, so I see it as them seizing an opportunity. I knew a DHer/LBS rat from Princeton who hated Whole Foods cause it it was hurting the long established local health food store there. Its like a healthfood Walmart to him crushing the local markets/flavor.

Our local Whole Foods has the worst prepared foods of any I've been to, that's the only reason I could see for protesting it

 

[ohio]

Jesus ****, do you people even know what you're reading? Of course it sounds nice, because it's the first 10% of what is already being proposed but avoids all the tough stuff that actually costs money but will produce significant change in the way we provide healthcare.

He's undermining the real effort by offering up the low-hanging fruit that everyone agrees on and declaring that it will somehow solve the whole problem.

"yeah, that sputtering oil-burning jalopy with a blown ring and no compression? Don't listen to the folks that say you need a new engine. That would cost money. Let's change the oil and plugs, and you'll be just fiiiiiiiine. See, it worked great on my late model Lexus!"

And HSAs are a complete failure. I've posted on this before. It works for wholefoods because they have a generally young healthy workforce. It does not work for the general population. HSAs are costing insurers MORE than traditional co-pay models.

I'd boycott them except I wasn't paying $4 for an apple to begin with. Whole Foods is having it's ass handed to it in the current recession, and I for one am glad to see this former darling of Wall Street go down the toilet.

 

[syadasti]

I think he was writing for the WSJ readership as he also shoots down other healthcare systems as if they have no merit whatsoever and as you pointed out glosses over HSAs without addressing the large aging and soon to be very costly baby boomers demographic. The worldwide demographic change is going to overload healthcare systems in all countries so something has to be done - the current US system is one of the most unsustainable and less people/businesses will be able to afford coverage if nothing is done even without any demographic changes.

 

[drkenan]

How did it make real sense?

Specifics, please.

Again, I don't work in the industry. As Ohio so eloquently pointed out, there are some serious flaws with the article but it sounded to me like a nice starting point.

I don't necessarily agree with all of his points, but here's what sounds good to my uneducated mind:

1. The removal of frivolous lawsuits would do a lot to lower insurance premiums for doctors/hospitals. I'm not saying to not hold them accountable but the ambulance chasing lawyers are partly to blame for the ridiculous cost of health care. Doctors are scared sh!tless of these lawsuits and here in NC there's a huge push to get legislation to help. Whether the cost savings would be passed down to the consumer is another topic.

2. Why do business and individual health insurance policies have different tax benefits? I couldn't agree with him more that this should be fixed.

3. Make health care costs transparent. Who wouldn't agree with this?

4. Reform Medicare. Everyone knows it needs to be done. Granted, John doesn't offer any ideas on how to accomplish this but at least its mentioned.

5. Allow tax deductible donations to the uninsured. I'm not sure if this will work but why not give it a try? There are a lot of people and companies that need the tax breaks.

His other points are debatable at best but I feel that these few would provide some real change to the way things are currently run.

 

[Silver]

Snip...

1. Malpractice insurance premiums make up a negligible amount of health care costs. Doctors kill thousands of people every year and are protected by a corrupt union that ensures that only the most incompetent get sanctioned. California and Texas both have caps on malpractice settlements, and have seen huge increases in health costs to consumers.

2. Sure. Medicare for all would do this as well. Voila!

3. How? After you figure that out, I'd like world peace and a pony. Remember that since we have a lot of different insurance companies, you have to do this exercise many different times. Also, please point out how I'm supposed to shop around for health care costs in cases where I need emergency care. Heath care isn't a normal good, as I've pointed out before.

4. I have an idea...how about means testing? If you don't want to means test (oh look, old people suddenly get egalitarian when you mention doing that) you could increase the size of the pool by including healthier (on average) young people. See 2.

5. Or you could do the hard work and reform the system so that it's a little like every other first world country that provides care to more people at much reduced cost. We have lots of real world examples of this, you know.

Ideas is hard. No wonder Mackey didn't bother to flesh them out. As far as Mackey being a vegan who likes animals, in the spirit of the general healthcare debate climate in America, I'd like to point out that Hitler was a vegetarian who liked dogs, which sounds a lot like Mackey to me. Why are you a fan of Hitler?

 

[drkenan]

Why are you a fan of Hitler?

Alright Glenn Beck.

Ok...so it's flawed. But with Obama backing down to the right wing assholes who are screaming and yelling (literally), what other choices are we going to have? Health care reform shouldn't be a political issue and obviously both sides are making it out to be.

Damned pussy assed liberals need to sack up and make something happen while they have the votes.

 

[sanjuro]

1. Malpractice insurance premiums make up a negligible amount of health care costs. Doctors kill thousands of people every year and are protected by a corrupt union that ensures that only the most incompetent get sanctioned. California and Texas both have caps on malpractice settlements, and have seen huge increases in health costs to consumers.

Ask an obstetrician that question?

http://www.allbusiness.com/medicine-health/health-health-care-by-target/5504951-1.html

 

[Silver]

What % of total health care expenditures is malpractice insurance?

Cut that out totally. Pretend it doesn't exist and also pretend that all the savings are passed onto consumers. What does that do to the overall cost picture?

 

[ohio]

Total cost of malpractice (insurance PLUS settlements) amounts to 0.46% of the total cost of healthcare in the US. That does not account for the cost of "defensive medicine," (doctors throwing the book of tests at patients to cover their asses). However, it is almost impossible to separate defensive medicine from the problematic pay-for-service model, which is a much larger priority for reform.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=07&year=2005&base_name=malpractice_in_practice

 

[sanjuro]

Total cost of malpractice (insurance PLUS settlements) amounts to 0.46% of the total cost of healthcare in the US. That does not account for the cost of "defensive medicine," (doctors throwing the book of tests at patients to cover their asses). However, it is almost impossible to separate defensive medicine from the problematic pay-for-service model, which is a much larger priority for reform.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=07&year=2005&base_name=malpractice_in_practice

You forgot the other number: 6.5 billion dollars = .46%

 

[Silver]

You forgot the other number: 6.5 billion dollars = .46%

So if we assume 300 million US citizens how much would that save per capita if it disappeared totally?

 

[drkenan]

So if we assume 300 million US citizens how much would that save per capita if it disappeared totally?

So you think we should keep the malpractice lawsuits flowing?

 

[Silver]

So you think we should keep the malpractice lawsuits flowing?

No, but worrying about it is like worrying about the fact you have a long fingernail that you need to cut when you're bleeding out from a massive gunshot wound.

 

[sanjuro]

No, but worrying about it is like worrying about the fact you have a long fingernail that you need to cut when you're bleeding out from a massive gunshot wound.

6.5 billion is not a lot of money anyway.

 

[Silver]

6.5 billion is not a lot of money anyway.

Did you do the math, or does ohio have to hand in your assignment for you again?

 

[ohio]

So you think we should keep the malpractice lawsuits flowing?

Can't tell if you're trolling or not. Yes, of course, fix tort law. It will be nice for OB/GYNs and make private practice a little easier. Just don't expect it to make any substantive difference in the cost, quality, or coverage of healthcare in the US.

 

[sanjuro]

Did you do the math, or does ohio have to hand in your assignment for you again?

Yes Silver, as an Asian, I really need the help of white people to do math.

Just say that 6.5b is not a large number that doesn't need to be addressed. That high insurance premiums limiting fields like Obstetrics is not a problem.

Then I will say .45% of 1,413,043,478,260 is insignificant.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Yes Silver, as an Asian, I really need the help of white people to do math.

Just say that 6.5b is not a large number that doesn't need to be addressed. That high insurance premiums limiting fields like Obstetrics is not a problem.

Then I will say .45% is insignificant.

Let's learn a word today....

Relative.

Today's word is "Relative".

Not to be confused with, "I f*cked my relative. She's only a second cousin, so it's ok."

 

[sanjuro]

We can't have a bill that has malpractice reform and a public option?

 

[Silver]

Yes Silver, as an Asian, I really need the help of white people to do math.

Just say that 6.5b is not a large number that doesn't need to be addressed. That high insurance premiums limiting fields like Obstetrics is not a problem.

Then I will say .45% is insignificant.

If you're really making this argument I'd have to say that your American nurture is screwing over your Asian nature.

Or maybe round eyes are the only ones that can understand analogies...

 

[ohio]

We can't have a bill that has malpractice reform and a public option?

No. Keep them separate. Neither is a necessary condition for the other, and either could easily derail the other.

 

[manimal]

I have to agree with kenan here.

it's not that i actually agree or care, it's just that he smoked my time at a DH race this weekend and i think i owe it to him to agree with him in a public forum as congratulations for murdering me on the track.

 

[drkenan]

I have to agree with kenan here.

it's not that i actually agree or care, it's just that he smoked my time at a DH race this weekend and i think i owe it to him to agree with him in a public forum as congratulations for murdering me on the track.

Ha ha - I still did terrible though. I hope your ride home wasn't too wet from leaving your windows down during that torrential downpour.

I would have thought you would have called me out for actually saying this earlier in the thread:

Damned pussy assed liberals need to sack up and make something happen while they have the votes.

 

[jimmydean]

Have you seen the price of Arugula at Whole Foods? I can't afford that crap!

 

[dante]

Trader Joe's and the local farmer's market FTMFW!

 

[jimmydean]

Trader Joe's and the local farmer's market FTMFW!

I had an organic CSA membership last year that was awesome.

 

[syadasti]

Trader Joe's and the local farmer's market FTMFW!

Trader Joe's is well deserving of protest considering they profit off their pseudo green image. FTMFL

http://www.traitorjoe.com/

Better just to go with Wegmans, Stop and Shop, or Wholefoods:

http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/ariel-schwartz/sustainability/greenpeace-ranks-sustainable-seafood-grocery-stores

 

[dante]

Trader Joe's is well deserving of protest considering they profit off their pseudo green image. FTMFL

http://www.traitorjoe.com/

Better just to go with Wegmans, Stop and Shop, or Wholefoods:

http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/ariel-schwartz/sustainability/greenpeace-ranks-sustainable-seafood-grocery-stores

wait, so that website is pissed that TJ sells Chilean Sea Bass? is it on the endangered species list? embargoed? give me a freaken' break! fish farming isn't exactly a "green" activity either...

 

[sanjuro]

I thought the website was poorly designed...

 

[stoney]

If I could justify the px, I would buy food at WF to support this.

 

[syadasti]

I thought the website was poorly designed...

Here is another - http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/seafoodwatch.aspx

I'd take the fisheries science experts every time over people who help design shoes for living

Avoid Chilean seabass as it is overfished. Most are caught using bottom longlines, which lead to bycatch of seabirds, most notably endangered albatross.

Consumer Note
In March 2004, Chilean seabass from the South Georgia Patagonian Toothfish Longline Fishery was certified as sustainable to the standard of the Marine Stewardship Council (MSC). However, the amount of certified product available is only a small portion of the total Chilean seabass catch. Legitimate sources are required to have the MSC "Chain of Custody" certification and purveyors should be able to produce this when asked. Without proof of this certification, consumers should not purchase Chilean seabass.

Health Alert
Environmental Defense Fund has issued a health advisory for Chilean seabass due to high levels of mercury.

Summary
Slow-growing fish that breed late in life, Chilean seabass are naturally vulnerable to overfishing. Illegal fishing is rampant, especially in remote Antarctic waters where law enforcement is difficult.

Fishing methods cause more problems: bottom trawling can damage seafloor habitat, and longlining hooks can fatally catch and drown endangered albatrosses and other seabirds.

Recipe Alternatives
Striped Bass, Pacific Halibut and Sablefish (Black Cod) are your best choices. Mahi Mahi is also a good alternative.

 

[sanjuro]

If I could justify the px, I would buy food at WF to support this.

No other gourmet food stores out in Marin?