[MikeD]

Having an issue with mine...more with the FSA bearings and headset kit than the cups themselves.

Set up my Gemini last week, and couldn't for the life of me get the headset tight. Now, it'd tighten down until you could barely turn the bars, but there was still a slight click/clunk in there; you could feel the top cap of the headset moving slightly front/back in relation to the reducer cups.

First, I checked to see that the cups and bearings were indeed fully pressed in. They were, but click remained. I tried a new starnut...still nothing...was getting pissed and didn't want to ride the bike just to roach the bearings and possibly the reducer cups...or affect a brand-new headtube in any way (unlikely as it would be...)

Took the fork off again yesterday, and realized it was probably coming from the compression collar thing (inner race for the upper bearing, fits under the top cap and around the steertube.). It looks like the top cap can't push hard enough on it to keep the steertube locked in place. No matter how tight you make the headset, the top cap bottoms out on the reducer cup before it can apply enough pressure to the collar.

I confirmed this by putting a really thin headset spacer underneath the top cap and above the collar. Now there's a gap between the bottom of the top cap and the reducer cup, but the headset will tighten and not clunk...

Anyone heard of anything like this happening before?

-Mike

 

[kidwoo]

I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying but lemmeee see here. I've got the e13 cups with fsa bearings in turner dhr. I've got only one piece (what it sounds like you're calling the compression collar) in the top bearing. So from the frame it's reducer cup, bearing, compression collar. That's it. You you have another piece beyond that?

I've run my go-ride and a white brothers top crown right up against this compression collar as well as a headset spacer right now with no problems.

 

[Kornphlake]

I think I remember that coming up once before. I thought the design of the e 13 cups eliminated the top cap in favor of a thin headset spacer. I may be wrong though. It seems like Acadian had at one point posted a picture of his setup and it was without the top cap.

 

[MikeD]

I think I remember that coming up once before. I thought the design of the e 13 cups eliminated the top cap in favor of a thin headset spacer. I may be wrong though. It seems like Acadian had at one point posted a picture of his setup and it was without the top cap.

Ahhhhh, soooooo...is THAT it?? That would explain a LOT. And I need to run a spacer under my top crown anyhow, just b/c my headtube is so short.

Thanks, I'll try it out...and search for Acadian's pic.

Kidwoo, the thin spacer (2mm headset spacer) I used went ABOVE the compression collar and below the top cap. Looks like I simply don't need the top cap at all...just a spacer then my upper crown.

 

[Dogboy]

the thin spacer (2mm headset spacer) I used went ABOVE the compression collar and below the top cap. Looks like I simply don't need the top cap at all...just a spacer then my upper crown.

Yup, pretty common on integrated headsets. FSA makes micro shims to place between the compression ring and top cap for just that purpose.

 

[MikeD]

Thanks for all the help. I shoulda posted sooner and saved a few days of aggravation. Glad nothing's ****ed here. (as The Dude once said...)

 

[Acadian]

 

[Tarpon]

I'm using the e13/FSA setup and have no problem with using the top cap. I also know several others running the same setup without any trouble. You may be having a bad tolerance stackup. The benefit to keeping the top cap is that it should keep the bearing cleaner so you might want to look into the shims.

 

[Acadian]

The benefit to keeping the top cap is that it should keep the bearing cleaner so you might want to look into the shims.

Top cap doesn't do jack to keep the bearings clean. Why? when you install it you have to make sure there is a few MM between the dust cap and the E13 cup - dust/water/crud can still get under there - it's not a seal system. and the Bearings themself are pretty durable, so you don't really need the dust cap. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Kornphlake]

That's exactly the picture I was thinking of, now I only I could remember usefull facts so well.

 

[bizutch]

I'll be getting my Cane Creek zero stack set tommorrow. Somebody posted a while back saying that Cane Creek's are inferior because they don't "use angular contact bearings" in their headsets. I checked with Cane Creek on that and they said most any of their cartridge hedsets use angular contact bearings, it's just that they've had the feature for so long, that lately they haven't touted it in their literature.

Thread hijack over....

 

[DßR]

Yup, pretty common on integrated headsets. FSA makes micro shims to place between the compression ring and top cap for just that purpose.

Yeah. Mine came with a selection of 'em for that reason. Ditching the upper cap is fine but looks a little funny; I just use one of the thicker shims I got.


Here's something while on topic -- anybody ever take the FSA/CC bearings OUT of the E13 cups yet? I tried to get mine out b/c they were totally roached (I had a POS Cane Creek plastic spacer crack during a run and ended up with who knows how much ride time on a super-loose headset before noticing it). Anyway, trying to tap out the bearings just caused them to disintigrate immediately, leaving nothing but the "inner" race stuck in the E13 cups with absolutely nothing you could catch on to knock it out.

I dremeled the **** out of it, and ended up putting two "ears" in the bottom of the cups so next time I can get a punch behind the race. I'd recommend that to anyone who's considering those cups.

 

[kidwoo]

I dremeled the **** out of it, and ended up putting two "ears" in the bottom of the cups so next time I can get a punch behind the race. I'd recommend that to anyone who's considering those cups.

That's awesome. If we ever run into each other again we can compare scars. I did the exact same thing. Dremel cut and then dental tool removal using the slice in the steel. I had that little kid feeling in your chest of breaking your favorite toy when I looked in the reducer cups and saw the race still sitting there after the rest of the cartridge hit the floor.

 

[MikeD]

Ouch. Design consideration for the future of the product...?

 

[-dustin]

i pulled my hair out trying to figure out what the problem was, too. i think that picture from Acadian gets a :thumbs:

 

[kidwoo]

Ouch. Design consideration for the future of the product...?

DW and his tolerances.............

I'd say the bearings just need a good surface to put the cup removal tool on. I can't really picture how put a gap in the reducer cups so that neither the cups or bearings get damaged. Getting those reducer cups out is not too much fun either. There's quite a bit of surface friction to overcome.

 

[oly]

That's awesome. If we ever run into each other again we can compare scars. I did the exact same thing. Dremel cut and then dental tool removal using the slice in the steel. I had that little kid feeling in your chest of breaking your favorite toy when I looked in the reducer cups and saw the race still sitting there after the rest of the cartridge hit the floor.

I had that happen on my scream's plates. I didnt want to cut it out so i had the metal shop guy hit the steel of the race a few times with the welder. It shrank the race enough to loosen it up, and the extra metal he put there gave me something to grab to get the thing out. When the bearing blew on my k2 lithium i just got a dremmel and went to town. the frame was so badly made that i was getting a warranty front tri so it didnt matter. Im a bearing destroyer.

Im going to use this setup and will take the advise to make the removal ears on it before it all goes into my frame.

thanks for the heads up.

 

[MikeD]

DW and his tolerances.............

I'd say the bearings just need a good surface to put the cup removal tool on. I can't really picture how put a gap in the reducer cups so that neither the cups or bearings get damaged. Getting those reducer cups out is not too much fun either. There's quite a bit of surface friction to overcome.

Hm, a tiny hole or three in the inner surface of the cup (the flat portions facing the interior of the headtube), so you could use a thin punch to knock a stuck race out? They'd be damned hard to reach, though, unless you took the cups themselves out of the headtube...and as you noted, that's not easy or desirable. I try to avoid removing and installing press-fit parts as much as possible.

MD

 

[Acadian]

2 more pics...one with the dust cap, the other without. you can also see the space under the dust cap, which is required.

 

[MikeD]

i pulled my hair out trying to figure out what the problem was, too. i think that picture from Acadian gets a :thumbs:

You mean trying to understand my problem, or trying to figure out what was wrong with your own setup? No need to pull your hair out on my account...simply sit back and laugh at the jackass who can't set up a headset...

I had a feeling I was going to need to take a photo and add arrows and words in photoshop to make it clearer...thanks, Acadian...made it easier on me, too.

MD

 

[MikeD]

2 more pics...one with the dust cap, the other without. you can also see the space under the dust cap, which is required.

Mine's currently looking just like your top pic. Next time I take the top crown off (which is a laborious, rubber-mallet affair with these go-ride crowns), I'll stick a spacer in instead of the cap.

MD

 

[Acadian]

Mine's currently looking just like your top pic. Next time I take the top crown off (which is a laborious, rubber-mallet affair with these go-ride crowns), I'll stick a spacer in instead of the cap.

MD

Go-Ride crown is flat, so you shouldn’t need a tick spacer. I had to use a 3mm one as to prevent the crown of hitting my TT or the edge of the headtube.

 

[MikeD]

Go-Ride crown is flat, so you shouldn’t need a tick spacer. I had to use a 3mm one as to prevent the crown of hitting my TT or the edge of the headtube.

I need a spacer for 2 reasons:

1, if I didn't have one, the flat crown would be too low to clamp the proper area on the stanchion (I'm running them at min. height and don't want to drop them)

2, the top cap itself is literally too tall on the inside to put enough pressure on the compression collar around the steertube...it bottoms out against the reducer cup before it can get tight enough.

MD

 

[DßR]

this is the rendering I plugged into the computer-controlled dremellation machine, it came out pretty well in the end.

 

[MikeD]

this is the rendering I plugged into the computer-controlled dremellation machine, it came out pretty well in the end.

Whoa, you must have V2.4!!! That's just out...

Cutting edge, man, no pun intended...cutting edge.

MD

 

[-dustin]

You mean trying to understand my problem, or trying to figure out what was wrong with your own setup? No need to pull your hair out on my account...simply sit back and laugh at the jackass who can't set up a headset...

I had a feeling I was going to need to take a photo and add arrows and words in photoshop to make it clearer...thanks, Acadian...made it easier on me, too.

MD

my problem when i got the reducers. my problem was the same as your.

 

[MikeD]

my problem when i got the reducers. my problem was the same as your.

Thanks for making me feel like less of an idiot... at least I'm not alone.

It is sort of an oddball thing, eh? Takes some detective work to figure out the problem...

 

[-dustin]

actually, i just rode with it like that. figured it screwed up the bearings when pressing them with my homemade press. then i was like "man, that pic acadian put up with the spacer was dope. i'm gonna copy him." so i did, and the play went away.

 

[bizutch]

OK...I've got hte Cane Creek here in my hands now. The "dust cap" is flat from the outer contact surface of the actual cups then does a slight shallow rise at the contact point of the fork. This should work great on my 888 and mean no need for shims or leaving the dust cap off.

The dust cap is also really, really low profile compared to either rendering Acadian posted of his FSA/E13/Cane Creek combos. The photo on Cane Creeks website doesn't give a good view. Here is a photo of the dust cap's profile from the same angle as what Acadian shows from the front of his bike.
This is the old prototype befor they went to flush cups top and bottom so pretend that bottom cup isn't there.

The blue rubber seal is not very thick, but it has a nice flange on the seal that extends under the dustcap and there is definitely a "sealing effect". With a light coat of grease on it, it should keep the guts clean.
Also, this thing is WAY LIGHT!!!

 

[Jeremy R]

OK...I've got hte Cane Creek here in my hands now.QUOTE]

If I drank a beer everytime you posted a picture of this headset, I would stay more lit than Ted Kennedy. Jeez, you getting a cut or something. :dancing:

 

[Tarpon]

Top cap doesn't do jack to keep the bearings clean. Why? when you install it you have to make sure there is a few MM between the dust cap and the E13 cup - dust/water/crud can still get under there - it's not a seal system. and the Bearings themself are pretty durable, so you don't really need the dust cap. Just my $0.02 worth.

A bit of a late reply.

As far as my top cap goes, it leaves a very small gap so it works well as a splash guard/debris shield. No it's not a tight seal but it does help. I'm running one of the FSA integrated jobs by the way, don't remember the number.

 

[bizutch]

OK...I've got hte Cane Creek here in my hands now.QUOTE]

If I drank a beer everytime you posted a picture of this headset, I would stay more lit than Ted Kennedy. Jeez, you getting a cut or something. :dancing:

you do stay more drunk than Ted Kennedy...I don't ever see you drink a drop...but I'm pretty sure you're sh!t faced everytime you ride.