[sanjuro]

I am thinking about replacing my Honda with either another Honda or a Nissan.

With the current crisis in the auto industry and the very likely bailout, I have thought about getting an American car.

But I think about things like gas economy, durability, and the looks, and the images that comes to mind is Escalade, F150, 300: obnoxious vehicles which don't compare to much better made foreign vehicles.

Whose to blame? I think it is the designers and the managers.

 

[Westy]

I've worked as a supplier in GM, Ford, Honda and Toyota Plants. Here are the things I've seen.

1) UAW, nothing could get done in a UAW plant without a giant waste of time. I can go into details but lets just say employee efficency was 10% of other plants. People in the "other" plants were well paid and taken care of too.

2) American makers seem to design by accountanting. Every part had to be make under a certain price, quality took second seat to the price. Drastic measures often had to be taken to make a $.13 part a $.11 part, that costs you more in the long run. Japanese manufacturers design by engineering.

3) US makers were successful for years because of brand loyalty. This created an artificial economy that let them get away making an inferior product. When brand loyalty disapears so does that artificial economy.


US makers don't really offer any apealing cars in the US. There are several cars I saw when in Europe that I would have considered buying. I was shocked when I realized the exact same car was offered in the US with a different look. The car in Europe looks like something I would buy, the car in the US looks like something my grandmother would buy.

 

[cannondalejunky]

Whose to blame? I think it is the designers and the managers.

Obama


it's hard to blame designers, when most of the time they're told what to design, and how to design it

 

[FlyinPolack]

Because Noone buys American anything anymore.
Support the country you live in. Nobody else will that's for sure.

 

[cannondalejunky]

Because Noone buys American anything anymore.
Support the country you live in. Nobody else will that's for sure.

I think as far as cars go people are still buying american, it's just that no one is buying new cars anymore. when people buy used cars, they aren't supporting the car company anymore they're supporting the hole in the wall dealership that they bought it from or their neighbor

 

[Defenestrated]

Because Noone buys American anything anymore.
Support the country you live in. Nobody else will that's for sure.

free market economics

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I can attest to 1) since I assembled fords for a while - work rules suck.

2) is left over from Henry Ford.

The appealing cars issue is symptomatic of the larger issue that our society's built on convincing us to buy useless stuff that we don't need.

Overall, the U. S. auto industry is old and creaky and should be left to die a natural death.

I've worked as a supplier in GM, Ford, Honda and Toyota Plants. Here are the things I've seen.

1) UAW, nothing could get done in a UAW plant without a giant waste of time. I can go into details but lets just say employee efficency was 10% of other plants. People in the "other" plants were well paid and taken care of too.

2) American makers seem to design by accountanting. Every part had to be make under a certain price, quality took second seat to the price. Drastic measures often had to be taken to make a $.13 part a $.11 part, that costs you more in the long run. Japanese manufacturers design by engineering.

3) US makers were successful for years because of brand loyalty. This created an artificial economy that let them get away making an inferior product. When brand loyalty disapears so does that artificial economy.


US makers don't really offer any apealing cars in the US. There are several cars I saw when in Europe that I would have considered buying. I was shocked when I realized the exact same car was offered in the US with a different look. The car in Europe looks like something I would buy, the car in the US looks like something my grandmother would buy.

 

[Westy]

Because Noone buys American anything anymore.
Support the country you live in. Nobody else will that's for sure.

Last go round I wanted to buy an American car. I couldn't find a single model that apealed to me. Try to find an American car with a standard transmission or with suspension that isn't so soft that I feel like I am in a row boat.

 

[JohnE]

Further blame to the American consumer for buying crap and further encouraging the ongoing production of more crap. If no one bought an F350 to jack up and park in the drive way, they would not build any more. What contractors and working types need, they will get...

 

[DirtyDog]

But I think about things like gas economy, durability, and the looks, and the images that comes to mind is Escalade, F150, 300: obnoxious vehicles which don't compare to much better made foreign vehicles.

I'm not sure where you get that info.... while there are certainly serious problems with the culture of US auto manufacturers - and I couldn't think of even one car I would like from a US company, trucks are the one thing that we do pretty well. I've had two Rangers, an F150, and 2006 Tundra and I can tell you the Tundra was a pretty underwhelming truck in terms of drive quality and dashboard layout. Beyond the basics, the Asian companies still don't use box frames on their larger trucks which makes them marginal for heavy loads. I run a users group for lightweight truck campers and one of my local users demonstrated how on his 2007 (new and improved!) Tundra, he could grab the top of his camper with one hand and cause enough flex in the truck frame to watch the bed move in relation to the cab. Weak. I have an F250 now and its rad for the job I use it for.

That said, the offerings for cars in the US are terrible. They all drive like boats. I rent a lot of cars while traveling for work so I get to try a lot of US cars I ordinarily would never drive. They all disappoint. We need to bring some German engineers over here and teach the American engineers the definition of style and road feel.

Nice, but flexy, and these trucks had some quality problems:

 

[Westy]

The appealing cars issue is symptomatic of the larger issue that our society's built on convincing us to buy useless stuff that we don't need.

They also try to perform shotgun marketing. They are afraid to build a car that everyone might not like. A good case study:

Around the same time Chrysler tried to get the youth market as Toyota. Chrysler came out with the PT cruiser, market research showed it was favorable with the youth market but they were afraid of alienating their core older market so they softened it up. They ended up with a product that apealed to aging empty nesters that no 20 something would ever consider because their mothers wanted one. Toyota came up with the Scion, building a product that only younger people would buy, and they have built brand loyalty with it.

 

[Inclag]

Go look at the wheel bearing assembly of a GM/Chevy Trailblazer. As an engineer, if I ever run into the person who designed this I swear to god I will punch them in the throat.

 

[kidwoo]

I'm not sure where you get that info.... while there are certainly serious problems with the culture of US auto manufacturers - and I couldn't think of even one car I would like from a US company, trucks are the one thing that we do pretty well. I've had two Rangers, an F150, and 2006 Tundra and I can tell you the Tundra was a pretty underwhelming truck in terms of drive quality and dashboard layout.

Funny. I drive a tacoma and drive several american trucks for work. Other than an F250 box truck, I completely disagree. I can't stand the dash layout of american trucks. The chevy tahoe we have has all wheel drive activated by buttons. I've had that truck with the front wheels stuck in snow, the rear wheels on dirt, and couldn't move it. 4WD my ass. It's a friggin top heavy station wagon......with about as much clearance.

You sure that tundra wasn't just wallowing in the shocks? Without the TRD package they do come soft.

 

[Samirol]

1) UAW, nothing could get done in a UAW plant without a giant waste of time. I can go into details but lets just say employee efficency was 10% of other plants. People in the "other" plants were well paid and taken care of too.

UAW plants are actually MORE efficient than other plants, according to the Harbour Report

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/BUSINESS01/708010420

But in the 12 categories allowing head-to-head comparisons, union plants were usually tops. UAW or CAW plants were the most efficient in all but one of those categories.

And although Toyota had the best overall number on a corporate basis -- largely due to its much more efficient stamping, engine and transmission plants -- none of Toyota's nonunion assembly plants in North America won a top spot.

 

[jimmydean]

My wife and I bought a Chevy Malibu in 2000. It was nice, good lines, comfortable, good power, smooth, I was happy.

After 2 years, we had already replaced the steering rack, alternator, intake manifold gasket failure causing coolant to bleed into the cylinders. Everything was covered, but a pain in the ass.

After 4 years, another intake gasket, still under warranty.

After 6 years, another intake gasket, $2200. AC pump went out, no way I'm paying $3000 to replace it.

This car rattles like it's falling apart as you drive. Had the alignment done and it still shimmies above 70mph, gets 24mpg on its best day, and I can't wait to be rid of it.

I have driven 20 year old Hondas that have held together better than this car. If they made something that lasted at least 10 years, I might look again. I refuse to buy another car from the big 3.

I agree the trucks are pretty solid. But I am replacing my wifes care with a 2003 Corolla S 5 speed that gets double the mileage and feels like a new car compared to this POS>

 

[MMike]

I'm telling you guys...read Machine that Changed the World. It's all in there...

 

[Silver]

There is simply no American car I would consider buying. They are ****.

Ford actually makes some nice stuff in Europe.

 

[ohio]

Ford Fiesta is coming back. If you can get past the name, it's a nice little hatch straight from Europe where they sell all the good Fords.

 

[kidwoo]

If you can get past the name,

I can't.

 

[Westy]

UAW plants are actually MORE efficient than other plants, according to the Harbour Report

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/BUSINESS01/708010420

Labor hours per car is a bad number to consider. If you ever went into these plants you would understand. Actually if you considered the labors hours actually worked I would bet the UAW plant would be even better as no one actually works.

For example looking at an engine block machining line in a honda plant (US) and an equivalent UAW plant. Both places buy similar machines. Honda pays someone to run the machines, load unload parts and take care of regular maintenance, actually a rather skilled job. The UAW plant has to pay to have that standard machine customized to automatically do a lot of what the Honda employee does because the UAW employee can not be trusted to do it in a timely fashion. The UAW plant has to spend more money to make the same part and when there is a design change they have to spend even more money to get the customization changed.

 

[Westy]

Ford Fiesta is coming back. If you can get past the name, it's a nice little hatch straight from Europe where they sell all the good Fords.

But the American model will be changed so it has dull styling and lethargic handling.

 

[jimmydean]

But the American model will be changed so it has dull styling and lethargic handling.

Don't forget the best part, no diesel engine option.

 

[ohio]

I can't.

Picture yourself in a sombrero, strapped with bandoleros, firing two 6-shooters into the air and screaming "Arrrrriba! Arrrriba!"

NOW you want a Fiesta.

 

[MMike]

KANBANS! Lean Manufacturing! Pull systems! Long term, transparent relationships with vendors.

THIS is why Toyota is more efficient.

Not to mention the fact, how many of us here right now are dicking around on the internet instead of working??

 

[MMike]

Picture yourself in a sombrero, strapped with bandoleros, firing two 6-shooters into the air and screaming "Arrrrriba! Arrrriba!"

NOW you want a Fiesta.

Siiiii!

 

[Upgr8r]

Not to mention the fact, how many of us here right now are dicking around on the internet instead of working??

I am indeed working. Just not very hard at the moment :biggrin:

 

[stevew]

None of their small cars are interesting. Not much can be said for their larger cars either.

The only mid size/large american car I find interesting is the body in white 08/09 challenger, which isn't street legal.

Best looking cars in my opinion, Toyota Avalons, 09 Nissan Maxima, Hyundai Genesis, and the new VW CC.

I'd pick anyone of those up used in 5 years.

 

[Serial Midget]

Whose to blame?

Ultimately we, as American (and Canadian) consumers are responsible for the state the US auto industry. If we didn't buy them, they wouldn't make them.

 

[valve bouncer]

There is simply no American car I would consider buying. They are ****.

Ford actually makes some nice stuff in Europe.

My sister and her husband in London have one of these

Ford Fusion. I was impressed, perfect city car, very Japanesy feeling. I'd have one.

*Anecdote* Student of mine works at a company that contracts to Toyota (among others) and has been to the Toyota plant in Lexington a couple of times to help train the American workers. He told me the other day that he'll be going again soon as apparently Toyota have sacked a number of workers. When I asked why they had been sacked he told me it was because the workers insisted on doing things their way instead of, presumably, the correct way. He said that Toyota had given up and now will be sending workers from Japan to do things properly.