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Why are all NORBA DH courses rough & World Cup courses fast & smooth ?

bballe336

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2005
1,757
0
MA
Because as Americans we have to be more hardcore.

But really I would rather ride a course that's challenging than something that is just fast. I'm not saying that UCI courses aren't tough but, I think that the Norba courses are definitely rougher and in some senses that makes them more challenging.
 

COmtbiker12

Turbo Monkey
Dec 17, 2003
2,577
0
Colorado Springs
Jimmy_Pop said:
Same thing at the World Cup in Angel Fire NM. Watered down golf cart path.
Agreed. I didn't like the WC course (or at least what was there at Chile Challenge) at all compared to the course from the year before. Not nearly as much technical stuff.
 

Jimmy_Pop

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2002
2,030
0
Phoenix, Az USA
COmtbiker12 said:
Agreed. I didn't like the WC course (or at least what was there at Chile Challenge) at all compared to the course from the year before. Not nearly as much technical stuff.

I liked the course (for what it was) As you know, AF is tough (rocky and LONG). I like the fact that AF now has, what i would call, an easier course - or atleast an option to ride wide open and haul ass with less gnar. It is all about option. And i am soo glad AF has added the 2 new DH courses.

But as far as the UCI race, I wanted to see my hero's pin atleast some of the technical parts of Angel Fire. That would have put into perspective just how gifted those pros are.

Hell, i can and do go 40-45-50 mph down a ski slope.

joel
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,157
1
SB
I personally like the WC courses. I think the riders just make the courses seem smooth, but they are probably pretty gnarly.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,556
79
teedotohdot
bigdrop05 said:
I always noticed this- but especially watching EARTHED2 .....


Umm, might want to actualy visit these courses before saying this. Mt St Anne's course last year is said to be the hardest course out there and I would agree after trying to pick my way down it. Then you actualy look at some good pics of the courses in Europe and South America and I dont know where your getting this idea from.

Maybe US courses *look* knarlier because of 'big-boy' syndrom :oink: .

:p
 

black noise

Turbo Monkey
Dec 31, 2004
1,033
0
Santa Cruz
I'm not sure what you're basing this on. Besides Sandpoint, Id and maybe Mammoth (though Mammoth is pretty easy anyway) the courses here are fairly mellow. Look at Snowmass, that's all wide open and dusty. Whereas in Europe there's that nasty course in Austria and Mont Saint-Anne.

I do get what you're saying, Euro courses in Earthed 2 do look smooth like Scotland and Italy.
 

Threepointtwo

Monkey
Jun 21, 2002
633
0
SLC, UT
If the UCI had their way, we would all be riding drop bars and 700c wheels on designated, paved DH runs. The Red Bull Road Rage was a preview of the '07 World Cup except that the duct tape EC ran would be banned because it is too high tech.
 

biker3

Turbo Monkey
What are you talking about? If you think Schladming and Ft Bill are smooth then I have no idea what you're calling rough. Just because they ride them incredibly fast doesn't make them smooth. Ft Bill is pretty much a rockgarden all the way down and Austria has the biggest roots ive ever seen.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
biker3 said:
What are you talking about? If you think Schladming and Ft Bill are smooth then I have no idea what you're calling rough. Just because they ride them incredibly fast doesn't make them smooth. Ft Bill is pretty much a rockgarden all the way down and Austria has the biggest roots ive ever seen.

Errr, no. Ft bill is pretty damn smooth, almost all of the way down. It's a man made gravel path, with rocks in it. Only the rocks aren't exactly huge, imposing or really noticeable in most areas.

Livigno was even smoother for worlds. Ste Anne on the other hand, is the complete opposite. The WC usually has a good mix of courses.
 

biker3

Turbo Monkey
Transcend said:
Errr, no. Ft bill is pretty damn smooth, almost all of the way down. It's a man made gravel path, with rocks in it. Only the rocks aren't exactly huge, imposing or really noticeable in most areas.

Livigno was even smoother for worlds. Ste Anne on the other hand, is the complete opposite. The WC usually has a good mix of courses.

Yeah, I guess you're right, I've never been but from what i've seen it looks at least rougher than Brazil or the Madrid WC.

EDIT: Pila looked pretty smooth as well, but thats only what I've seen on flipper.
 

Repack

Turbo Monkey
Nov 29, 2001
1,894
0
Boston Area
I've noticed the smoothness, but anything is hard at WC speed. It also adds to the drama of the race when times are seperated by tenths and hundreths.
Maybe they even want the course to be safer? I know that in WC skiing DH they have tried to do stuff like add more turns to keep speeds/danger down but found that the increased technical nature of the courses actually added to the risk taking and injuries.
Either way, there does seem to be a good mix. Variety is the spice of life.
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,445
0
Ventura,CA
The other thing to remember is NORBA courses get a lot of use with all the different classes racing, which leads to braking bumps in weird places, especially when you have one course that has alt lines for the beg, sports. Plus i think the euros like to build smoother, flower courses. Nevagal was a prefect example...from what i've been told not a hard course to ride at all, but a hard course to ride fast. I think you need a mixure to that, and places like Idaho that are just plan hard to ride, leads to a good mix, plus it gives a wider range of riders a chance to shine.
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
6,330
2,107
[303]
Zutroy said:
...which leads to braking bumps...
Definitely - like Snowmass for instance. Not rough at the beginning of the weekend, but by Sunday the braking bumps were wheel-deep down the whole top of the course, making for a pretty rough ride.
 
Dec 25, 2003
402
0
Edinburgh, Scotland
Transcend said:
Errr, no. Ft bill is pretty damn smooth, almost all of the way down. It's a man made gravel path, with rocks in it. Only the rocks aren't exactly huge, imposing or really noticeable in most areas.
I need to remember that next time I get to the bottom feeling I have done 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. Yes it does lack in the way of really slow tech features but at any sort of speed the upper section is brutal, by the time you hit the tree line you are hammered, it is pretty far from the fast and smooth description that is in the topic title!
 

bigdrop05

Monkey
Mar 26, 2005
427
0
Zutroy said:
The other thing to remember is NORBA courses get a lot of use with all the different classes racing, which leads to braking bumps in weird places, especially when you have one course that has alt lines for the beg, sports. Plus i think the euros like to build smoother, flower courses. Nevagal was a prefect example...from what i've been told not a hard course to ride at all, but a hard course to ride fast. I think you need a mixure to that, and places like Idaho that are just plan hard to ride, leads to a good mix, plus it gives a wider range of riders a chance to shine.
-:cool:
I get the picture more now..thanks.
Yeah, i think the Euros like to build the courses different.I always think of Downhill skiing watching MOST of the footage of Euro courses on dvd's & when OLN televised it in the past...
----
& to most posters on the forum-When someone posts something with a question mark "?" it doesn't mean it's fact. It simply means it's a question,or somethinng to start conversation....
Some people just Lighten up already :love:
 

BC VAN

Monkey
May 4, 2005
624
0
Zutroy said:
The other thing to remember is NORBA courses get a lot of use with all the different classes racing, which leads to braking bumps in weird places, especially when you have one course that has alt lines for the beg, sports. Plus i think the euros like to build smoother, flower courses. Nevagal was a prefect example...from what i've been told not a hard course to ride at all, but a hard course to ride fast. I think you need a mixure to that, and places like Idaho that are just plan hard to ride, leads to a good mix, plus it gives a wider range of riders a chance to shine.
this is the reason for the most part, so many riders on the course just blows it up...coupled with all the different braking spots for the different skill levels and you have bumps everywhere.

other factors, most of the world cups are designed to be more like downhill ski courses and not courses where you have to skid to complete stops in the turns,
the video footage you see is very,very deceptive it's so hard to go as fast as the top world cup guys go and hit all the lines that enable you to keep speed because a lot of the braking is off camber, so it takes so tons of skill to slow the bike down with it being super steep and off camber.

back in 01 nico did a norba in deer valley and was super stoked til race day...all of his lines were blown out, he told me he couldn't believe how much it had changed, he felt that aside from knowing where the turns were training was almost useless.
 

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
I can't comment on World Cup course difficulty having only ridden one in my life, but I have noticed that World Cup courses seem to have too many man made features like bridges, huge berms, etc... I prefer riding courses that reflect the geography of the area. For example, Angel Fire has a really sweet lava field (bowling ball sized rocks) in one of it's courses, but for some reason they left it out for the World Cup. But they added a giant wooden ramp/drop over a steep section that in my opinion completely ruined the flow of the course.

From the footage I have seen of Willingen last year, the course looked like it was entirely man made/shaped with jumps all over the place. Call me old-school but I think jumps belong mostly on 4x courses. A jump here and there is alright for DH but I feel there is such thing as too many. DH jumps should not be groomed and constructed out of the middle of nowhere, they should be formed around the natural terrain.

So I do like the direction that Norba takes with course design. Keep them natural and torn up!
 

bigdrop05

Monkey
Mar 26, 2005
427
0
Well, i just read Richard Cunninghams article in MTB ACTION about the same thing we are talking about here..
The NORBA courses are fun to ride as a rider.yeah. But stated that WC courses bring in the TV & spectators because of the speed & i agree a little somewhat..
I came from roadracing superbikes & some motocross back in the early 90's & the speed drop to DH is staggering. I'm not knocking anything & i totally LOVE to ride ALL terrain, yes including Windrock Joey for sure- but i am only giving an opinion on an idea to maybe HELP racing in the USA...
Now let's go ride......

& get this needle"knowshowtolaugh" off the site.!!
 

Banshee Rider

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
1,456
10
BC VAN said:
the video footage you see is very,very deceptive it's so hard to go as fast as the top world cup guys go and hit all the lines that enable you to keep speed because a lot of the braking is off camber, so it takes so tons of skill to slow the bike down with it being super steep and off camber.
The MSA course was pretty damn nuts I thought. Like BCVAN is saying, alot of high speed off camber sections. Alot of the woods were off camber too. To the ride that stuff at a world cup pace is simply mind blowing to me. The videos are certainly VERY deceptive. In no way do they really portray the size of the terrain and how fast they are really going over it.
 
I race at Plattekill, considered by many to be one of the most tech/ difficult places to ride, and the "wide open" NORBA Mt Snow course beats my ass.
It's wide open for most of it and down the ski slope but the ski slope is sketchy because of the grass and it's littered with boulders. It feels like a jackhammer at speed, but you watch Hannah and the Yeti guys and they just fly over the stuff like it was never there.
 

BC VAN

Monkey
May 4, 2005
624
0
pterodactyl said:
I race at Plattekill, considered by many to be one of the most tech/ difficult places to ride, and the "wide open" NORBA Mt Snow course beats my ass.
It's wide open for most of it and down the ski slope but the ski slope is sketchy because of the grass and it's littered with boulders. It feels like a jackhammer at speed, but you watch Hannah and the Yeti guys and they just fly over the stuff like it was never there.

i wasn't there this year so i didn't see the yeti guys but i know hannah loves it there. i don't like all the hidden holes and rocks in the grass...to me i like to be able to see what the heck i'm hitting so i can react , but it's a total rush when you've done a race run at your fastest speed down mt snow ....1st or 31st it still gets your attention
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,578
0
Victoria
pterodactyl said:
I race at Plattekill, considered by many to be one of the most tech/ difficult places to ride, and the "wide open" NORBA Mt Snow course beats my ass.
It's wide open for most of it and down the ski slope but the ski slope is sketchy because of the grass and it's littered with boulders. It feels like a jackhammer at speed, but you watch Hannah and the Yeti guys and they just fly over the stuff like it was never there.
Hannah is a psychopath. No BS, the guy is just a total lunatic (except he's actually in control). At Mt Buller earlier this year he was hammering this fireroad run in to this huge stepdown (that nobody ended up hitting due to wind/light issues) - the track was covered in loose shale, and had large rocks embedded in it. He was absolutely flogging the bike down there like you would not believe, suspension looked like it was set up so he only used about 3" of it at most, and he still looked smooth (although I bet his rims hate him).
 
Yeah, Hannah can fly. While riding up the lift, we'd see him coming down the slope and it just seemed impossible that you could go that fast and still maintain control. I think if he put his arms out he would fly away. During practice I tried to keep up w/ Duncan Riffle and have never been so scared in my life.

All us expert and semi-pro riders would stop at the Yard Sale and check out lines, etc. The real pros would just haul ass thru the section.

The point being with regard to the thread...they make it LOOK easy, no video does the ability of these guys and justice.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,604
282
Walden Ridge
Yeah, Snowmass was crazy. Some of the braking bumps turned into whoops. But I noticed this year and last year that the experts would blow the crap out of good lines ecspecially at Snowshoe in the mud.
 

Scurry

Monkey
May 9, 2003
276
0
Boston
Usually WC courses are machine made and US courses they dont really do much to it. There was a big article about it 2 dirts ago or something.
 

robz

Chimp
May 18, 2004
36
0
Scotland
Fort William is one of the roughest courses on earth - It's not that steep but man it's hard work. 4 mins of riding over ancient Granite at warp factor 11 is not easy then there is the tree section that you never get to see pictures of.

The Les Gets world cup course is amazing, steep, fast and tech - you should try it.

Personally I think the Spanish, Italian and Austrian courses all looked very technical, steep and certainly not easy.

I think videos have a habit of flattening out the landscape.
This is what fort bill is like for most of the top open sections: