[Andyman_1970]

Some more...........

WHAT’S CHANGED? I’m still as cash-strapped as ever, but, in the past decade, the world has changed, and so has Wal-Mart. For one thing, while Wal-Mart was spreading like kudzu across rural America, family farms were closing and small-town factories were moving to Mexico. As a result, Wal-Mart has become a primary employer in much of the country. And as cheap and convenient as it may be to shop at Wal-Mart, the chain is a terrible employer. The average pay at Wal-Mart for a 40-hour week would keep a family of four in poverty. And reality is worse than that since so many Wal-Mart workers are part-time. That’s by design because part-timers don’t qualify for benefits until they’ve worked two years.

Also, just as I was writing about Wal-Mart 12 years ago, the company and the country were turning a corner into the era of global free trade. For Wal-Mart, this shift also coincided with the death of the company’s founder and the severing of its corporate links to small-town culture and traditions. As the Frontline report showed in depressing detail, in the early 1990s, with growth at a plateau and stock value declining, Wal-Mart took down all those "Buy American" signs from its stores and got into bed with China.

Yep, China - the country with the slave labor camps and the compulsory abortions. That’s our Wal-Mart. The company even has a corporate office in the industrial center of Shenzhen, China, to maintain relations with its thousands of Chinese suppliers. And the Chinese workers feeding Wal-Mart’s money machine make 25 to 50 cents per hour.

Wal-Mart didn’t cause this situation, of course. It’s only following the logic of the free market. And so are we, as consumers, when we drool over those low prices. The problem is that the logic of the free market is suicidal. As Wal-Mart illustrates, a "low-price" economy inevitably becomes a "low-wage" economy. And when wages sink low enough, workers can no longer afford to buy anything, even at Wal-Mart prices, and the machine grinds to a halt. So far America has postponed that day with low interest rates, federal deficits, and staggering consumer debt, combined with rank exploitation of cheap foreign labor.

It will take a lot of time and struggle to reform the global marketplace around principles of workers’ rights (and environmental protection). But in the long run, that is the only way we can have a decent life for most Americans and real opportunities for the global poor.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Why should Wal-Mart pay someone $10, $15 or even $20 an hour for an entry level clerk job that's really only worth $8 an hour?

That's probably more than the local mom & pop store would pay for the same worker.

 

[hurlykid6900]

My friend worked there... got 5 bucks an hour. I thought that was below minimum wage? Evrything they sell breaks. Its all about Big K anyway.

 

[OGRipper]

Wow N8 you are either just fanning the flames or you are seriously confused. The former is kind of entertaining, the latter is kind of scary. Either way you need

 

[Changleen]

Walmart are not really doing anyting 'wrong', they are simply using free market principals in a highly aggressive and successful way. Most of what N8 has said seems to be factually correct.

The problem is: "You're not wrong, WalMart, you're just an asshole".

The other problem is that people are lazy and stupid. If Joe Average knew and cared enough about this, then he wouldn't shop there, and therefore the problem would not exist. Education is fairly important...

 

[kidwoo]

Doobie time?

Why, too tough for you to understand?

I'll move on to turpentine fumes if that will help.

I'll bridge our gap one of these days.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Wal-Mart is projected to have $315,000,000,000 in sales this year. That's a sh!tload of NASCAR panties, camo overalls and deer corn... me thinks a whole lot of you are pretending not to shop there when you actually do.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Why, too tough for you to understand?

I'll move on to turpentine fumes if that will help.

I'll bridge our gap one of these days.

Doobie, doobie, doo....

 

[N8 v2.0]

If you want to blame someone for all this trade deficit with China, you need to string up your most beloved leader, Bill Clinton. He's the one that set the stage for all this to happen.

 

[Changleen]

And GW is powerless to do anything about it! He's only the President after all...

 

[Inclag]

If you want to blame someone for all this trade deficit with China, you need to string up your most beloved leader, Bill Clinton. He's the one that set the stage for all this to happen.

Yeah, but don't you like cheap stuff from Wal-Mart and other large business chains following similar business models?

 

[Toshi]

Why should Wal-Mart pay someone $10, $15 or even $20 an hour for an entry level clerk job that's really only worth $8 an hour?

That's probably more than the local mom & pop store would pay for the same worker.

you walmart haters do realize that most products sold in your idealized mom 'n pop store also are made in china, no?

 

[Echo]

Why should Wal-Mart pay someone $10, $15 or even $20 an hour for an entry level clerk job that's really only worth $8 an hour?

That's probably more than the local mom & pop store would pay for the same worker.

Hey asshat. There's a difference between paying someone $8 per hour for a $8 per hour job, and hiring illegal aliens because you can coerce them into working overtime for free.

 

[blue]

If you want to blame someone for all this trade deficit with China, you need to string up your most beloved leader, Bill Clinton. He's the one that set the stage for all this to happen.

No one was blaming any politikos, as much as you'd like to be painted the victim today. Yeah, the American government for the past 40 years has SUCKED. We get it. Thanks. Die. Now, onto more pressing matters.

What was it again? A $270 billion trade deficit with the Chinese? Do you HONESTLY ****ING BELIEVE that the United States' economy will hold out another 40, 30, 20 years? What's wrong with you? Money is flowing out of this country at an exorbitant rate, with not much coming back in. The motto seems to be "debt, debt debt", but sometime in the near future the country as a whole is going to have VERY bad credit when it runs out of creditors to pay off other creditors with. False economies are FUN!

 

[N8 v2.0]

Hey asshat. There's a difference between paying someone $8 per hour for a $8 per hour job, and hiring illegal aliens because you can coerce them into working overtime for free.

Ok, I recognize name-calling as the last resort measure someone takes when they really can't argue their weak case any longer, however, don't fool yourself into thinking Wal-Mart is the only company who uses subcontractors who may or may not hire illegal aliens. This is a wide-spread occurance. Mainly since most Americans think of themselves as 'too-good' to work cleaning public bathrooms and the like and would rather be on welfare and unemployment. So when you run such a business, you have to get workers from somewhere.

And good point to whomever pointed out that the mom & pop shop is selling the exact same Made in China as Wal-Mart.

 

[binary visions]

And good point to whomever pointed out that the mom & pop shop is selling the exact same Made in China as Wal-Mart.

No, it's not really a good point.

I may have missed some argument where someone indicated that Mom&Pop goods are US made or what-have-you (though I didn't see it), but regardless of what the suppliers are, the profits from Wal-Mart go to their corporate office. The profits from local stores go to the local store owners, who, in turn, make the community wealthier by spending it.

And anyway, I've never been to a local store that stocks as high a percentage of cheap junk as Wal-Mart does. Obviously, I don't go through the stores reading all of the "Made In..." labels, but until someone else has, I'm not sure people should be making that kind of claim. It's certainly not true for all stores - many small businesses make it a point to buy American goods.

 

[N8 v2.0]

No, it's not really a good point.

I may have missed some argument where someone indicated that Mom&Pop goods are US made or what-have-you (though I didn't see it), but regardless of what the suppliers are, the profits from Wal-Mart go to their corporate office. The profits from local stores go to the local store owners, who, in turn, make the community wealthier by spending it.

And anyway, I've never been to a local store that stocks as high a percentage of cheap junk as Wal-Mart does. Obviously, I don't go through the stores reading all of the "Made In..." labels, but until someone else has, I'm not sure people should be making that kind of claim. It's certainly not true for all stores - many small businesses make it a point to buy American goods.

While you're there ask them how much they pay their employees and what their benefit package is.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Arindrajit Dube of the University of California at Berkeley, a leading Wal-Mart critic, has calculated that the firm has caused a $4.7 billion annual loss of wages for workers in the retail sector. That loss to workers would still be dwarfed by the $50 billion-plus that Wal-Mart consumers save on food, never mind the much larger sums that they save altogether.

 

[Echo]

don't fool yourself into thinking Wal-Mart is the only company who uses subcontractors who may or may not hire illegal aliens. This is a wide-spread occurance.

Hey asshat. There's a difference between hiring illegal aliens, and hiring illegal aliens so you can blackmail them into working overtime for no pay.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Hey asshat. There's a difference between hiring illegal aliens, and hiring illegal aliens so you can blackmail them into working overtime for no pay.

Wasn't this like 3 years ago and Wal-Mart paid $11-million as a result?

Besides if you are here in the US working illegally then you really don't have much say in the conditions of employment (in other words, if you don't like it, stay home). Nearly all the people who work in the US illegally want to work for whatever they can get because it is a HUGE improvement over the $1 a day there were making back in their native country. They want to work so where's the problem?

 

[binary visions]

That loss to workers would still be dwarfed by the $50 billion-plus that Wal-Mart consumers save on food

I'd be interested to know how they calculated that statistic. Saved compared to what? MSRP?

My local Wal-Mart prices are better on some things, worse on others. If I shopped there for certain items and at the grocery store for others, I would come out ahead. Doing all of my shopping at either place results in a wash.

 

[Echo]

Wasn't this like 3 years ago and Wal-Mart paid $11-million as a result?

Besides if you are here in the US working illegally then you really don't have much say in the conditions of employment (in other words, if you don't like it, stay home). Nearly all the people who work in the US illegally want to work for whatever they can get because it is a HUGE improvement over the $1 a day there were making back in their native country. They want to work so where's the problem?

So your contention is that labor laws should not apply to illegal aliens? What was the name of your company again?

 

[N8 v2.0]

I'd be interested to know how they calculated that statistic. Saved compared to what? MSRP?

My local Wal-Mart prices are better on some things, worse on others. If I shopped there for certain items and at the grocery store for others, I would come out ahead. Doing all of my shopping at either place results in a wash.

And that $50 billion is the savings only on food... if you factor in all of Wal-Marts products, that figure could be as high as 5 times more.

 

[N8 v2.0]

So your contention is that labor laws should not apply to illegal aliens? What was the name of your company again?

Ohce Corp.

 

[binary visions]

And that $50 billion is the savings only on food... if you factor in all of Wal-Marts products, that figure could be as high as 5 times more.

"As high as 5 times"?

Before you state statistics that could be easily pulled out of someone's posterior (did you make up "5 times" or was that in the article, too?), how about finding out how they reached the conclusion that you posted?

 

[N8 v2.0]

"As high as 5 times"?

Before you state statistics that could be easily pulled out of someone's posterior (did you make up "5 times" or was that in the article, too?), how about finding out how they reached the conclusion that you posted?

http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/{E9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03}/WALMART_PROGRESSIVE.PDF

 

[binary visions]

http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/{E9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03}/WALMART_PROGRESSIVE.PDF

What's with the ""? Am I supposed to magically read your mind to know where you are getting these statistics from? Or just assume that you are the authoritative source on everything and should not be questioned?

Can't read it right now, but I've got it bookmarked for later.

 

[N8 v2.0]

What's with the ""? Am I supposed to magically read your mind to know where you are getting these statistics from? Or just assume that you are the authoritative source on everything and should not be questioned?

Well d'uh!

 

[Biscuit]

...regardless of what the suppliers are, the profits from Wal-Mart go to their corporate office. The profits from local stores go to the local store owners, who, in turn, make the community wealthier by spending it.

Hmmm... This is a pet-peve argument of mine against everything corporate.

Why don't you buy some stock? It's WMT on the NYSE currently at $46.34 per share. Then you can take your share of the profits and spend it locally, or globally, and everyone will be wealthier.

Pissed off that oil companies turned a 10% profit this year? Buy some F*ing stock!

 

[narlus]

Pissed off that oil companies turned a 10% profit this year? Buy some F*ing stock!

did you see the Daily Show last night? the guy was interviewing an oil broker, and asked about how much a family of 8 who makes 14,000 a year should invest in oil stocks. it was pretty funny.

 

[dan-o]

did you see the Daily Show last night? the guy was interviewing an oil broker, and asked about how much a family of 8 who makes 14,000 a year should invest in oil stocks. it was pretty funny.

If you make $14K/yr and have 8 kids you should be investing in birth control.

 

[ohio]

Hmmm... This is a pet-peve argument of mine against everything corporate.

Why don't you buy some stock? It's WMT on the NYSE currently at $46.34 per share. Then you can take your share of the profits and spend it locally, or globally, and everyone will be wealthier.

Pissed off that oil companies turned a 10% profit this year? Buy some F*ing stock!

Are you familiar with the term "capital?"

 

[Westy]

Pissed off that oil companies turned a 10% profit this year? Buy some F*ing stock!

10% Oil stocks would be plummeting if they only made 10%.

 

[Biscuit]

10% Oil stocks would be plummeting if they only made 10%.

Exxon's P/E ratio (i.e. profit to earnings ratio) was 10.93.

Sorry, should've said 11%.

 

[binary visions]

Are you familiar with the term "capital?"

I was going to reply but I think you put it more succinctly.

 

[Biscuit]

Are you familiar with the term "capital?"

I'm failing to make the connection. Please elaborate.

 

[OGRipper]

The problem is: "You're not wrong, WalMart, you're just an asshole".

This gets to the heart of the matter. N8 is hiding behind the fact that in theory there is probably nothing technically illegal about what Walmart is doing. (Well, aside from some questionable labor practices and IMO clear anti-trust violations, but let's not pick nits. ) In doing so he is also completely ignoring the degradation of character in many areas where Walmarts exist. That issue is very real but for the moment it's difficult to convince self-centered, tasteless people with small, closed minds, because these are subjective issues and you can't post a spread sheet to prove the point.

And I will say again that it is at once hilarious and outrageous that N8 and the other republicans are now the champions of the downtrodden, the workers, the immigrants. I don't know if I should laugh, cry, or punch the first republican I see in the face.

But it is interesting that evironmental lawyers are starting to use the negative declaration following an environmental impact report (EIR) as a tool. These investigations typically focus on air and water quality and other traditional environmental factors, but they are starting to look at the deterioration of quality of life as well.

Yes, that's right, more hippies gumming up the works and getting in the way of the "free" market and everyone's "God-given" right to fill their identical tract homes with identical cheap crap.

I don't know where you people come from but you've either never lived in a place with local character, or you are just cheap tasteless bastards.

 

[Toshi]

I'm failing to make the connection. Please elaborate.

his point is that you can't buy stock without having money (capital) to begin with in the first place.

anyone have a study that compares this local trickle down effect from the store owner buying a lincoln town car to the national trickle down effect from walmart turning an X-billion profit?

 

[Toshi]

I don't know where you people come from but you've either never lived in a place with local character, or you are just cheap tasteless bastards.

didn't you ever learn in school that ad hominem arguments are weak? by the way, characterizing me as a republican is about as wrong as you can get.

places i've lived, which may or may not have local character too subtle for me to notice: manhattan, cambridge (ma), portland (or), seattle. perhaps "local character" only exists in tony california suburbs...

 

[Biscuit]

...I don't know where you people come from but you've either never lived in a place with local character, or you are just cheap tasteless bastards.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I hate tract homes and cheap cookie-cutter crap. I generally dread shoping, particularly at wallmart or some other crap store that gives me a headache.

I don't agree with unfair labor practices. And wallmart has been guilty of several. But there are plenty of companies out there who are commiting the same crimes withought the attention.
The house your living in, unless it's a high end custom home, was probably constructed with some very unfair labor practices.
It's also hard to justify paying someone $2 an hour more to do a very basic job.

The fact remains that a lot of people LOVE walmart. My grandmother, who lives on a very fixed income, partially supported by my parents and uncle absolutely LOVES walmart. She can actually shop there, and get the stuff she needs at affordable prices.

Again, I do not agree with treating workers like dirt.

I cannot justify disallowing a company from doing something simply because they are better at it than everyone else.