[Biscuit]

his point is that you can't buy stock without having money (capital) to begin with in the first place.

They could do it with all the money they save from shopping at walmart!

 

[Silver]

I cannot justify disallowing a company from doing something simply because they are better at it than everyone else.

And you don't have to. After all, the rest of your post stated that you don't agree with Wal Mart's labor practices.

So, are they cheating, or do they do it better than anyone else?

I'd say, a little from column A, and a little from column B.

 

[Echo]

I cannot justify disallowing a company from doing something simply because they are better at it than everyone else.

I don't think anyone said anything about disallowing Walmart from doing business. That's the gubmint's job. Although I would be happy to see them go bye bye. What people are saying is why they don't like Walmart, which is what the title of the thread asks. I'm not trying to tell you what to think about Walmart. I'm telling you what I think about Walmart.

 

[OGRipper]

didn't you ever learn in school that ad hominem arguments are weak? by the way, characterizing me as a republican is about as wrong as you can get.

Hahaha, yeah well that last comment was not an argument, it was my opinion. But you're right, I should not label anyone a republican or anything else based on their opinion on one issue.

places i've lived, which may or may not have local character too subtle for me to notice: manhattan, cambridge (ma), portland (or), seattle. perhaps "local character" only exists in tony california suburbs

Sarcasm is not really the best way to make a point either, is it? Anyway, those areas are never going to lose their character to a big store like Walmart. Nor is San Francisco, where I live. Character may change but those areas will still be distinguishable from other parts of the world. We are talking about smaller areas that are completely losing their identities, and I think you know that.

It is a long-term problem and in my opinion people are being short-sighted. I understand that some people can't afford to shop elsewhere, and I see the value in discount stores. But soon enough many people won't have a choice to shop anywhere else, and choice is exactly what the free market and anti-trust laws are supposed to protect.

 

[narlus]

alton brown (host of _Good Eats_, one of the best shows on the Food Network) put it best (and i am reciting from memory, so it's probably not an exact quote):

"we americans have come to value "cheap" and "more" above everything else."

 

[OGRipper]

The fact remains that a lot of people LOVE walmart. My grandmother, who lives on a very fixed income, partially supported by my parents and uncle absolutely LOVES walmart. She can actually shop there, and get the stuff she needs at affordable prices.

I probably sound insensitive to lower-income folks, and maybe I am. I admit, I'm doing pretty well and have the luxury of looking at factors beyond the bottom line when making purchasing decisions.

I think there are hidden costs that a lot of people are ignoring. But I don't expect the bulk of consumers to vote with their wallets like I do, not do I think it's fair to expect underfunded activists to carry the load. Instead I expect city planners, the federal government, and other elected officials to be more responsible when approving projects like these.

There is money to be saved in the short-run but we will eventually pay the bill one way or another.

 

[fluff]

It's also hard to justify paying someone $2 an hour more to do a very basic job.

Would you do it for the same rate?

Again, I do not agree with treating workers like dirt.

Good. At what point does it become treating them like dirt?

 

[Changleen]

In this debate, everyone needs to remeber that WalMart did not simply pop into existance one day as the huge entity that it now is. Once there was only the idea of WalMart. They had to grow and compete in the economy like everyone else.

However, today I would agree that they could cetainly do more for America (and the world) with a little more business ethics. Ever heard of social enterprise?

 

[blue]

If I manage to muscle every crack supplier into giving me crack rocks for half of what every other dealer gets them for, will you buy them from me? Please?

Someday it would be excellent to do a Chinese sweatshop reality show. Sort of like Fear Factor...Survivor...maybe an American Idol format?

Oh America, where money supplants human decency.

 

[Damn True]

Here is my take on it from a post I made on a similar subject (the overall decline in customer service) on another board;

We as a society have largely done this to ourselves.

Because we want to save $2 we go to Home Depot instead of Fred's Hardware store.

You know how Fred's always has some 72 year old dude that is a retired plumber that you can walk up to with a rusted broken part of a 35 year old garbage disposal and a look of dismay on your face? Well the guy at Fred's can look at the part, figure out what it is, get you a new one AND the right freakin gasket, remind you to buy pipe dope and hand you the proper finizzile wrench to get the job done.

The kid at Home Depot? He's saving money to put rims on his Civic and can tell you that plumbing stuff is on aisle 14....."I think."

So if you go to the big orange box and save $2 but have to go back three times because you got the wrong **** and forgot the finizzle wrench did you really save money?

Real story: Last week I was going to Tahoe and wanted to do a little preventative maint. on my Subaru. So I go down to Kragen (because its close and Im a dumbass) and buy engine oil & filter, air filter, wiper blades, ATF and thought, "What the hell. I'll change the tranny filter too." So I had the guy grab a tranny filter for me as well.

Well I get home and all is going well until I drop the pan off of the tranny and realize that the filter the dude gave me looks nothing like the assembly I am looking at on the valve body. So I call them, they look it up again, their system comes up with the same wrong part number. So since I'm laying under the car and looking at the tranny I ask the guy, "Well there is an object roughly the size of a motorcycle oil filter attached to the outside of the tranny case, could that be the replaceable assembly?" he replies, "Nah, thats a pressure regulator or something. I guess you'll have to go to the dealership." I remided him that it was December 26th and there was not a chance in hell that a dealership parts department would be open and why the **** is it that the only part his system shows is the wrong ****ing part? At this point my darling fiance reminds me that I am talking to some $6.75 per hour dip**** and suggests that I calm down and call Main Auto, a local independant store (about 5mi further away).

I get on the phone with Main and initially the kid (owners son) gives me the same wrong part number. I then said that I'd gotten the same info from Kragen to which he replied, "Those guys are dip****s. We will figure this out for you and get you back on the road today." Then he asks for my VIN as he types furiously at his computer and comes back with, "In '99 Subaru made a mid year change to the transmission due to a recall issue. The old system used a valve body filter which they changed to a coarse strainer and they added an external screw on filter to the tranny case and the part number is ####### and I just grabbed one off the shelf and it will be sitting on the counter when you get here. The end game is that a huge billion dollar national chain either dosen't have the rescources to find good information, or they dont train their employees to use the rescources they have.

Simple answer: Dont patronize large national chains thereby forcing them to behave more like the local retailer.

 

[Changleen]

Stuff

I agree. Wasn't the 'service' industry supposed to be America's saviour from decling manufacture anyway? Service means more than more coffee shops and hotels.

 

[Biscuit]

Would you do it for the same rate?

If I had better options, hell no.
If it was the best job I could get hell yes. People who work there are usually there for a reason. (i.e. lack of skills, education, motivation, etc.)

And you don't have to. After all, the rest of your post stated that you don't agree with Wal Mart's labor practices.

So, are they cheating, or do they do it better than anyone else?

I'd say, a little from column A, and a little from column B.

For the most part I think walmart's labor practices are pretty similar to the rest of the big-box/value/fast food industry.

And I don't like any company lying, cheating, or stealing. Period.

What I respect about walmart, is they have re-defined efficiency.
Their shipping and inventory systems are rediculously good. That's what put them so far ahead of target and K-mart which are now playing catchup.
They also understand the leverage they have and take advantage of it.

I don't think anyone said anything about disallowing Walmart from doing business. That's the gubmint's job. Although I would be happy to see them go bye bye. What people are saying is why they don't like Walmart, which is what the title of the thread asks. I'm not trying to tell you what to think about Walmart. I'm telling you what I think about Walmart.

Echo, you just touched the root of my problem.

I don't like the way the gubmint handles things like this. It drags everything out and increases costs dramatically. Then, whoops, the incentive for becoming extremely efficient and competetive dissapears.

I deal with it regularly. It takes me weeks to get something done that I should be able to do with a phone call. I have to get six different groups of people to review and approve it...

What kind of value is the 11th signature on that list adding?!?!

Did he even read it? Then there is no accountability when there is a problem!

Sorry... I get fired up about excessive levels of government, beaurocracy, and red-tape.

This is exactly what get's me labeled as a conservative, and often as a republican, although I have many liberal ideals and don't believe in a two party system.

Mark Twain wrote something like: "The more useless and outdated a tradition becomes, the harder it is to get rid of."

That is exactly how I feel about a lot of our government and systems we have in place. Relatively useless, outrageously inneficient, and in need of a makeover.:mumble:


That is the heart of the matter for me not wanting the government to controll which business can operate where, etc. They should police things, but not control them (i.e. more tax audits for corporations, labor investigations, etc.).

I'm done.

 

[Damn True]

I agree. Wasn't the 'service' industry supposed to be America's saviour from decling manufacture anyway? Service means more than more coffee shops and hotels.

Well sorta, service industry is the only thing left after we taxed our corporations into outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas. Unions and enviro-nazis had a pretty big effect on that too, but that is off topic.

 

[blue]

Stuff from before

For the first time in memory, I agree with you.

 

[Changleen]

I mean that the only 'plus' a otherwise doomed traditional manufacturer can add to their otherwise 'outsourcable' business is to offer a far better service than a company physically located several thousand miles away can. However in reality it seems that a) a good percentage of the population doesn't actually care that much and b) in some cases the remote business are still beating the dinosaurs at that game as well.

 

[Damn True]

Perfect example: McDonalds vs In-n-Out Burger.

McDonalds is cheap, but filthy, the food is lousy and they hire nearly unemployable people.
In-n-Out is more expensive, but squeaky clean, the food quality is an order of magnitude better and they hire hard working kids that are clean cut and can communicate with their customers.

In places where In-n-Out has located near a McDonalds In-n-Out absolutely KILLS McDonalds. Yet there are still some people who will go to McDonalds and endure filthy conditions, lousy food and lousy service to save 99 cents.

 

[Changleen]

Animal style!

 

[Damn True]

I know dude. Guilty pleasure, but I will hit it up once in a while. Like on the way home from a weekend in Tahoe riding or skiing.

Someone told me the other day that you can get the fries "Animal Style". Sound like that might just pop an aorta, but for an instant before the lights went out.......mmmmmmmmmm.

 

[kidwoo]

Perfect example: McDonalds vs In-n-Out Burger.

McDonalds is cheap, but filthy, the food is lousy and they hire nearly unemployable people.
In-n-Out is more expensive, but squeaky clean, the food quality is an order of magnitude better and they hire hard working kids that are clean cut and can communicate with their customers.

In places where In-n-Out has located near a McDonalds In-n-Out absolutely KILLS McDonalds. Yet there are still some people who will go to McDonalds and endure filthy conditions, lousy food and lousy service to save 99 cents.

This is another example I was thinking of. You beat me to it.

Good points on the earlier rant. Where did you copy it from?:devil:

Again with the labor practices between companies........ In-n-out provides kids (mostly) with optional retirement accounts, some education funding options and generally treats their employees like humans. Mcdonalds is of course on par with wal mart, actually still not as bad. But both cater to, support and ensure the lowest common denominator of employees, customers and overall business practices.

There's no question that the family who started In-n-out is freakin rolling in it. But they did it in a responsible (holistic?) manner that doesn't fvck with existing communities to the degree that mega marts do. They're selective about almost every aspect of when and where they choose to open a business and are very successful. Vitriol towards wal-mart (even if it's just my own) doens't have dick to do with someone being successful. I wish In-n-out the best. Someone like N8 is too simple minded to go that deep to even begin to understand underlying causes though.

As more of a direct comparison, check out CEO incomes between the Walton empire and Costco. Both offer the cheap, but one defends it's workforce, the other milks it to death. Both are publicly traded entities but conduct themselves in very different ways. I know why wal-mart is the icon it is, but it still sucks. Thinking a company is unpopular simply because of it's success is asinine.

 

[Silver]

Well sorta, service industry is the only thing left after we taxed our corporations into outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas. Unions and enviro-nazis had a pretty big effect on that too, but that is off topic.

I was agreeing with you, until that.

Corporations didn't outsource manufacturing jobs because they were dying under a tax burden. They outsource because labor costs are much lower in some countries than others (see Mexico losing jobs to China.) Take a peek at corporate tax rates in India...pretty close to the US. Hell, China's corporate tax rate is 30%. Also, notice that companies aren't picking up and moving wholesale to China (with some exceptions, but most of the cases like that I've heard of are people who emigrated to Canada or the US from Hong Kong and want to go back. Wal-Mart isn't moving corporate headquarters to Shanghai), they are outsourcing labor.

Why is labor cheaper in some countries than others? Capital being (relatively) free to move but labor being tightly constrained might have something to do with that, no?

ps...Don't think of them as enviro-nazis. Think of them as externality detection agents.

 

[Changleen]

I have a friend who has/does invest in China and she said to me: "It's very easy to invest in Chinese companies, but it can be a lot harder to get that money back out of the country." Not totally relevant, but whatever.

 

[kidwoo]

I have a friend who has/does invest in China and she said to me: "It's very easy to invest in Chinese companies, but it can be a lot harder to get that money back out of the country." Not totally relevant, but whatever.

Yeah yeah whatever.

Back to important issues.

Does In-n-out put those little bible verse numbers on the bottoms of the cups in NZ like they do here?

 

[Changleen]

Yeah yeah whatever.

Back to important issues.

Does In-n-out put those little bible verse numbers on the bottoms of the cups in NZ like they do here?

No In-n-Out here, dude. I used to live in teh US. That's why I'm such a bigmouth about it.

 

[kidwoo]

No In-n-Out here, dude. I used to live in teh US. That's why I'm such a bigmouth about it.

I knew that but for some reason I was picturing your US residency as preceding the In-n-out spreading beyond socal thing.

And being an ingnernt merrican then assumed the chain had made it global.

 

[Changleen]

I knew that but for some reason I was picturing your US residency as preceding the In-n-out spreading beyond socal thing.

And being an ingnernt merrican then assumed the chain had made it global.

I wish they would... Not too much global chain BS over here but McSh1t are here in force (shocker) and I'd switch em for In-n-Out any day!

Oh, They have In-n-Out in Phoenix now, too!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well sorta, service industry is the only thing left after we taxed our corporations into outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas. Unions and enviro-nazis had a pretty big effect on that too, but that is off topic.

taxes are not really the reason.
in fact, i´d say tax related costs are almost negligible compared to the savings on labor cost. and then multiply the effect by X on labor intensive jobs like small goods manufacturing.

you´d have to triple digit negative tax factories in the US to make them competitive to asian or latinamerican factories where workers make 5 bucks day.

 

[Damn True]

Alexis & Silver:

A company can move operations and employees from CA to AZ or TX, pay the employees the EXACT same wage and save 30% on their payroll costs (Payroll tax and Unemployment Insurance) alone, not to mention differential in Corporate taxation.

The savings involved in moving that same manufacturing to Mexico or Asia and paying a competitive wage there instead of anywhere in the US will be far far greater. Which is why your neihbors Chevy Truck was built in Mexico (well that and the UAW)

The largest expenditures for any company are payroll (actuall pay, taxes, unemployment ins. and health ins.) and real estate (debt load and property taxes). Both costs are monumentally decreased by manufacturing overseas.

 

[Changleen]

Don't forget pensions...

 

[Damn True]

Thats where the UAW comes in.

 

[ohio]

Which is why your neihbors Chevy Truck was built in Mexico (well that and the UAW)

Honda, Toyota, and BMW seem to manage okay building vehicles in the US. In fact they are the three most profitable automakers.

 

[Changleen]

And BMW's service for one (the only on I have experience of) is frickin superb. When you purchase one they really look after you. I was highly impressed.

 

[fluff]

If I had better options, hell no.
If it was the best job I could get hell yes. People who work there are usually there for a reason. (i.e. lack of skills, education, motivation, etc.)

So...

take people who have to accept whatever you offer and offer them the minimum possible...

Pretty close to treating them like dirt then?

 

[Toshi]

are you arguing that the minimum wage is insufficient? or that no company should suffer its employees the minimum? that's a separate argument, and walmart is hardly the only enterprise that employs unskilled workers at minimum wage.

 

[narlus]

Well sorta, service industry is the only thing left after we taxed our corporations into outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas. Unions and enviro-nazis had a pretty big effect on that too, but that is off topic.

so what is your solution? pull back the environmental protection laws so we can achieve the same crystal clean air or water?

clearly cost of living differences will manifest themselves as direct labor cost savings. i am an agreement in that unions don't make a cheaper, more competitive product.

 

[Westy]

so what is your solution? pull back the environmental protection laws so we can achieve the same crystal clean air or water?

The funny thing is trans-Asian air pollution is affecting the Western Hemisphere not to mention globally.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Honda, Toyota, and BMW seem to manage okay building vehicles in the US. In fact they are the three most profitable automakers.

Toyota in the US builds excellent cars sans the UAW.

 

[Damn True]

so what is your solution? pull back the environmental protection laws so we can achieve the same crystal clean air or water?

clearly cost of living differences will manifest themselves as direct labor cost savings. i am an agreement in that unions don't make a cheaper, more competitive product.

We have had this discussion before. I favor a more process oriented approach to environmental protection. A methodology that will conserve the natural rescources w/o sacrificing commerce by imposing sweeping change.

I would be in favor of something similar to Kyoto if the two fastest growing industrial countries (India & China) were to be a part of it as well.

 

[fluff]

are you arguing that the minimum wage is insufficient? or that no company should suffer its employees the minimum? that's a separate argument, and walmart is hardly the only enterprise that employs unskilled workers at minimum wage.

I was refering to a comment that they are not worth paying $2/hr more. (Or sumtink along those lines)

What is the current US minimum wage?

 

[Damn True]

Honda, Toyota, and BMW seem to manage okay building vehicles in the US. In fact they are the three most profitable automakers.

Wow, I missed this post.

One thing I don't know is if the UAW is in those plants. Im pretty sure they are not in the BMW X-5 and Z Roadster plant I toured in Spartanburg SC. The UAW is in the Mercedes plant in Tuscoloosa AL though. Dunno about the rest.
I do know that Ohio gave Honda some pretty dramatic incentives to build thier facilities in Marysville in light of their need to recover manufacturing jobs lost when the Eco-mafia ran the steel industry out.

 

[fluff]

It's odd but the Honda Legend (which was US-built) acquired a reputation for poor build quality in the UK