[manimal]

I just recently installed the Ti spring from manitou for my swinger 4-way. I was running a 500# steel spring and had it dialed pretty well. With the 500# Ti spring it feels like it's very undersprung. What's the deal? i'm 225lbs and it's running about 50% sag with the ti spring,opposed to about 40-45% sag with the steel. the ti spring is a bit shorter but i have plenty of thread available to preload it.

also, how much do manitou Ti Springs cost brand new (mine came as rebate w/ my '05 demo8 frame)? i've seen a few in the buy/sell forum for over $150! i'm just debating on whether the weight savings is worth it. perhaps i'll run the steel spring for my usual trail rides/freeride/dj type stuff and put the ti spring on for DH.

oh yeah, it's on a demo8.

 

[Kntr]

Chances are its not a 500. If its a Manitou spring call them and see if they will swap it out or take it back to where you bought it and see if they will swap it out. Steel and Ti 500lb spring should be the same.

It also could be, your steel spring is not a 500.

Springs do get mislabeled

 

[Bicyclist]

I say sell the Ti spring and buy one the correct weight one after calling Manitou to see what they can do.

 

[dhkid]

maybe you had alot of preload on the old spring?

 

[wydopen]

Chances are its not a 500. If its a Manitou spring call them and see if they will swap it out or take it back to where you bought it and see if they will swap it out. Steel and Ti 500lb spring should be the same.

It also could be, your steel spring is not a 500.

Springs do get mislabeled

no im pretty sure ti spings run softer..

 

[Bicyclist]

no im pretty sure ti spings run softer..

They shouldn't though. The rating should be consistent no matter what the material is.

 

[metalMTB]

maybe you gained weight over the winter

that happened to me and my springs feel softer

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

no im pretty sure ti spings run softer..

i cant believe people still think this.....


bicyclist is correct, they have the same rating, regardless of material.

 

[loulou]

I think that since the Ti springs have turns widely spaced and so more angle, they have a slight falling rate; not as linear as a spring with a closer pitch.

 

[Transcend]

They shouldn't though. The rating should be consistent no matter what the material is.

Exactly. 500lbs of pressure is 500lbs of pressure.

 

[zedro]

i cant believe people still think this.....


bicyclist is correct, they have the same rating, regardless of material.

wrong, coils arent 100% linear to begin with, and they get less linear when the coils are spaced farther apart (or less coils per length). It behaves differently not because it's made out of Ti, but rather because it's wound differently because it's made out of Ti.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

wrong, coils arent 100% linear to begin with, and they get less linear when the coils are spaced farther apart (or less coils per length). It behaves differently not because it's made out of Ti, but rather because it's wound differently because it's made out of Ti.

that is correct, however spring companies take this variation into account, and label them accordingly.

500lb/in means it takes 500lbs to compress the spring one inch, whether its steel, titanium or any other material.


the only difference between Ti and steel is that the sparsely wound Ti springs greatly decrease the occurance of spring binding under greater force.

 

[zedro]

Exactly. 500lbs of pressure is 500lbs of pressure.

we are talking about rates. Coil ratings are either an average or a sample; if the coil isnt linear, then a sample rate would be based on the force over the first inch of travel, and an average rate would be based on the total force divided by the total displacement. For a non-linear rate, you will get two different ratings depending on how you measure.

To top it off, the steel wind wont feel relatively the same as the Ti wind simply due to coil geometry, not to mention coil springs vary alot anyways.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

i know what your saying zedro, and i never really thought of it that way. however, i dont think this difference would be enough to explain the problems manimal is having.

 

[zedro]

i know what your saying zedro, and i never really thought of it that way. however, i dont think this difference would be enough to explain the problems manimal is having.

maybe not, but people have always claimed that Ti springs feel "suppler", like progressively wound springs. Prog springs will feel softer even if having the same average rate.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

maybe not, but people have always claimed that Ti springs feel "suppler", like progressively wound springs. Prog springs will feel softer even if having the same average rate.

very true, i dont disagree. i will disagree when people say to get a 100lb/in heavier spring if they get Ti because they think Ti rates run lower. i have run both steel and Ti springs, and the only difference i have noticed is weight, cant say i feel a difference performance wise.

 

[Transcend]

maybe not, but people have always claimed that Ti springs feel "suppler", like progressively wound springs. Prog springs will feel softer even if having the same average rate.

And 90% of people have their suspension setup wrong to begin with.

The rest would come in complaining that their shock is too fast too slow etc and needed revalving (big name pros). So the techs would obligingly take it apart, clean it up and put it back together without changing a thing. "Here we made some changes, how does that feel". Next run, "dude that was amazing, those changes were exactly what it needed".

So ya, take what "people have claimed" with a grain of salt.

For what it's worth, I have used both types of springs on various shocks but the same general frame design for 6 years. I never noticed a difference unless I picked up a steel and ti spring in each hand. Then i noticed the Ti one was significantly lighter.

 

[zedro]

very true, i dont disagree. i will disagree when people say to get a 100lb/in heavier spring if they get Ti because they think Ti rates run lower. i have run both steel and Ti springs, and the only difference i have noticed is weight, cant say i feel a difference performance wise.

it could be a matter of getting one spring at one end of the variance, and the other at the opposite, assuming that the spring wasent mislabelled.

As for you and Frasier not feeling the difference, well thats you guys feelings, just like floaters and 4 bars, everyone has a different sense. Frasier likes heavy damping so that could also reduce the feeling, who knows, it doesnt really matter.

 

[ThePriceSeliger]

Exactly. 500lbs of pressure is 500lbs of pressure.

Like if I put 500lbs of pressure on Transcends face, then put 500lbs of pressure on a mods. face, they would both break.

 

[Kntr]

Thats a lot of pressure

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

it could be a matter of getting one spring at one end of the variance, and the other at the opposite, assuming that the spring wasent mislabelled.

i can see that, but couldnt you get a steel spring on each end of the spectrum of variance? it cant be that much less of a spread than Ti springs.....

 

[Transcend]

it could be a matter of getting one spring at one end of the variance, and the other at the opposite, assuming that the spring wasent mislabelled.

As for you and Frasier not feeling the difference, well thats you guys feelings, just like floaters and 4 bars, everyone has a different sense. Frasier likes heavy damping so that could also reduce the feeling, who knows, it doesnt really matter.

The only damping I run is on rebound, and that is just enough to keep the rear end from ejecting me, the way it is intended to be setup.

Clearly, this will not effect any sort of weird compression feeling from a different spring material.

 

[ThePriceSeliger]

Thats a lot of pressure

They would expload at exactly 453.47384723943lbs of pressure. We should try with your face first Kanter!

 

[Transcend]

Like if I put 500lbs of pressure on Transcends face, then put 500lbs of pressure on a mods. face, they would both break.

Does that mean you need to use 1000 pounds on my face, or 250?

 

[zedro]

i can see that, but couldnt you get a steel spring on each end of the spectrum of variance? it cant be that much less of a spread than Ti springs.....

yeah, i'm just talking generally, and having a more progressive spring could exagerate it.

But yeah it could be just a misslabel too, its all just possibilities.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

Does that mean you need to use 1000 pounds on my face, or 250?

are you running Ti or steel?

 

[Transcend]

are you running Ti or steel?

At the moment, air.

 

[punkassean]

Manimal, call Manitou and see if they will either send you a replacement to verify the accuracy of the spring or send you a heavier spring. Just be sure to tell them that you NEVER rode off-road with the spring, you just tested it it on the street briefly. Assure them that the spring is good-as-new so they can resell it if in fact it is not defective.

 

[ThePriceSeliger]

Does that mean you need to use 1000 pounds on my face, or 250?

No, with a Ti spring, I will get a 500 lb man to sit on your face, and your face will combust into power, which the fat man will procede to devour. Then he will get a steel spring, and will sit on it, and Kanter will be his mortan self and expload, but not into power, he evaporates, and the fat man crys.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

No, with a Ti spring, I will get a 500 lb man to sit on your face, and your face will combust into power, which the fat man will procede to devour. Then he will get a steel spring, and will sit on it, and Kanter will be his mortan self and expload, but not into power, he evaporates, and the fat man crys.

i think that pretty much wraps up this thread. nothing more to see here folks, move along.

 

[ThePriceSeliger]

I read that over, and I guess I suck at spelling. Good lord, I should just quit at life after that.

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

I read that over, and I guess I suck at spelling. Good lord, I should just quit at life after that.

Or stop getting concussions.

That might help just a tad.

 

[Sir_Crackien]

all i know is that the best feeling coil spring that i have ever onwed was custom made for my by phol springs. they actually take the measurements for the spring you want and them make it to those specifications. then they set the spring and then finally check for accuratcy of the spring to make sure its within they tighter tolerances that they run. also for some reason the springs they make just feel more lively. i guess that is just the type of metal they are using

 

[manimal]

i think i may just need a 550. the steel 500 works but feels a tad more responsive than the Ti. i think that i'm borderline between 500/550 and with the Ti it just accentuates it. i'll call manitou and see if they'll trade....it only took 3 months to get the original one

 

[bikenweed]

Dude, you need at least a 550. On my Demo8, I run a 550 ti spring with almost no preload and a bunch of bottom out resistance. SPV chamber at it's lowest pressure. I weigh 72kilos/158lbs. It still bottoms out occaisonally, but the 450 steel was waaaaaay undersprung. The 550 is as close to perfect as can be for a 160lb hack.

 

[manimal]

Dude, you need at least a 550. On my Demo8, I run a 550 ti spring with almost no preload and a bunch of bottom out resistance. SPV chamber at it's lowest pressure. I weigh 72kilos/158lbs. It still bottoms out occaisonally, but the 450 steel was waaaaaay undersprung. The 550 is as close to perfect as can be for a 160lb hack.

dude...i'm pretty sure you're waaay over sprung for only 160lbs. the 500# steel spring was dead on for DH with 40-ish% sag and i weigh in at 225. manitou and the spring rate calculator both put me around the 500-550 spring for my weight.

 

[metalMTB]

yea i was 225 and i'm running a 500 pound spring. I only bottom out on super big hits and even then i can dial in my bottom out resistance some more.

 

[bizutch]

Dude, you need at least a 550. On my Demo8, I run a 550 ti spring with almost no preload and a bunch of bottom out resistance. SPV chamber at it's lowest pressure. I weigh 72kilos/158lbs. It still bottoms out occaisonally, but the 450 steel was waaaaaay undersprung. The 550 is as close to perfect as can be for a 160lb hack.

Ok...you are WAY off. I'm running a 450 in my Demo 8 and haven't harsh bottomed it yet..and we hit some big crap the last two time out riding. And I'm borderline 200lbs

 

[bikenweed]

Well, with my 450lb spring, I bottomed the bike out a ton, unless I ran a ton of preload or tons of bottom out resistence. Both of those, or a combo of the two, made the suspension feel horrid. I have a Manitou Swinger 4way. It feels fine, gets about 30% sag. Only a little bottom out resistence, no preload, and I'm set.

If you guys are getting better results with softer springs, cool. Maybe it's the shock or something. The bike rides just swell. 50lbs isn't much of a big deal, anyhow; not enough to warrant spending money for. I'm kind of a hack, and huck a lot of stupid stuff, and land flat a lot, trying to go too fast.

 

[Shortbus]

Manipou won't swap springs. They suck when it comes to that. =(