[sanjuro]

This is a funny predicament, because I am trying to argue for and against gun control.

First of all, the argument that crime goes up or down because of gun control or no gun control is specious.

Yes, murders continue to happen in areas with strong gun control. Take DC for example.

Yes, murders continue to happen in areas with little gun control. Take New Orleans for example.

However, if you look deeper into the statistics, NYC and Dallas have a relatively low murder rate of under 5 per 100,000, despite being polar opposites with gun licensing.

I have no idea what is the relation between these four cities are when it comes to murder rates and guns.

But my argument, if anyone would like to discuss it, is that the gun debate is being held by the extremes: the NRA who is against any action which whiffs of gun control, and liberals who know absolutely nothing about guns or crimes, and are are glad to trample on a right so important, the Founding Fathers made it second in the Bill Of Rights.

I know legal gun owners who would only use their weapons against another person if they were being legitimately threatened. I also live within a mile of several murders.

I am a moderate when it comes to gun control, which does mean I look like a target for both left and the right.

 

[rockofullr]

 

[sanjuro]

Another person who misses the point.

 

[rockofullr]

 

[kidwoo]

are glad to trample on a right so important, the Founding Fathers made it second in the Bill Of Rights.

They thought owning naggers was pretty rad too.

Pretty important to keep the government at bay with personal firearms in the 2012. Huge issue for sure.

And don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone who wants limitations on firearm availability doesn't know anything about them, just because they don't jack off to guns and ammo every time a new model rifle comes out.

 

[Westy]

I suspect that the NRA gets a good chunk of funding from people who really don't give a **** about guns. You can **** over plenty of Americans and still get them to vote for you because of a single issue such as guns and abortion. Since these laws are set more in the courts there is little that will ever change but every year people line up and vote for someone based almost solely on those issues.

 

[Silver]

And don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone who wants limitations on firearm availability doesn't know anything about them, just because they don't jack off to guns and ammo every time a new model rifle comes out.

If guns are anything like cameras, the guys who jerk off to the equipment are some of the absolute worst users of it...

 

[kidwoo]

If guns are anything like cameras, the guys who jerk off to the equipment are some of the absolute worst users of it...

And HOW!!

 

[X3pilot]

I must have a weird philosophy I guess. Guns are for nothing more than killing. People, animals, cans, whatever I'm aiming at. Targets? Practice for being better at killing.

I have several guns. My rifle is for killing deer, mostly. Shotgun? Killing ducks. Little lever action rifle? squirrels. Intruder of my house...guess I could kill them too.

Guns are a tool, not a toy, not a collectible, not a political stance. A tool. For killing.

Have a nice day!

 

[?????]

I must have a weird philosophy I guess. Guns are for nothing more than killing. People, animals, cans, whatever I'm aiming at. Targets? Practice for being better at killing.

I have several guns. My rifle is for killing deer, mostly. Shotgun? Killing ducks. Little lever action rifle? squirrels. Intruder of my house...guess I could kill them too.

Guns are a tool, not a toy, not a collectible, not a political stance. A tool. For killing.

Have a nice day!

I could see someone wanting to collect them (without ammunition), but otherwise not a weird philosophy at all.

 

[kidwoo]

Nah, shouldn't shoot squirrels. The meat volume:cuteness ratio is way off on those.

 

[JohnE]

Nah, shouldn't shoot squirrels. The meat volume:cuteness ratio is way off on those.

Just gotta hit 'em right. My Dad used to tell me how they fed themselves during the Depression with red squirrel...take them with a head shot from the flank with a .22. Grey squirrel was bad, too stringy and gamey. Mind you I have never confirmed this. It was easier to bag a McDonalds cheeseburger in my (child)hood...

 

[dante]

But my argument, if anyone would like to discuss it, is that the gun debate is being held by the extremes: the NRA who is against any action which whiffs of gun control, and liberals who know absolutely nothing about guns or crimes, and are are glad to trample on a right so important, the Founding Fathers made it second in the Bill Of Rights.

Proof that the "liberals" wants to do *any* such thing? Or are you going to claim that "one handgun a month" is trampling on someone's rights, or a three day waiting period, or adequately going after straw-buyers, or ensuring that criminals can't use the gun-show loophole to avoid a background check or...?

 

[4xBoy]

This is a funny predicament, because I am trying to argue for and against gun control.

Now that is the problem, might as well start talking about Religion.

I agree with your view point, something needs to be done, but reality has a way of making a simple answer not very simple.

 

[Silver]

and liberals who know absolutely nothing about guns or crimes, and are are glad to trample on a right so important, the Founding Fathers made it second in the Bill Of Rights.

As to the first point, do you think that NAMBLA should be the ones writing legislation that deals with the age of consent of males? After all, they are the experts, not me...

(Had an interesting debate about fighting on a hockey message board, specifically the topic of fighting in junior hockey. I've done a bit of a 180 on the subject over the last 10 years, but the fact that Canada and the US let children fight for other's entertainment because the "Players and coaches want it there" seems like letting 16 year old girls and Joe Francis decide on laws about the age of pornographic actors. Totally ****ing crazy, in other words. I still can't think of a reason that analogy isn't valid.)

As to the second point, the founding fathers seemed much less worried about individual crimes than they did tyranny from Britain. To protect myself from government tyranny, I would need to be able to buy a fully operational ICBM pointed at Washington and wear a launch button around my neck. An automatic rifle won't do much these days...

 

[kidwoo]

As to the first point, do you think that NAMBLA should be the ones writing legislation that deals with the age of consent of males? After all, they are the experts, not me...

Pretty apt comparison to most of the cabinet positions over the last 20 years.

 

[Silver]

Pretty apt comparison to most of the cabinet positions over the last 20 years.

True enough.

Hell, I'm sure you've heard about these guys:

http://www.alec.org/

 

[kidwoo]

True enough.

Hell, I'm sure you've heard about these guys:

http://www.alec.org/

Our legislature for hire overlords? Of course!

Making dumbfvcks in the south slowly bring back jim crow voter suppresion, one redneck at a time!

 

[sanjuro]

Proof that the "liberals" wants to do *any* such thing? Or are you going to claim that "one handgun a month" is trampling on someone's rights, or a three day waiting period, or adequately going after straw-buyers, or ensuring that criminals can't use the gun-show loophole to avoid a background check or...?

Alex Wagner of MSNBC does not equate the 2nd Amendment as important as the other civil rights

P.S., I am for all the laws you listed. Once again, I am a moderate when it comes to gun control.

 

[Silver]

Who the fvck is Alex Wagner?

 

[kidwoo]

Oh look, more freedom.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/01/ranger-killed-in-mount-rainier-national-park-shooting/


Happy new years!

Park superintendent Randy King said that Anderson is a mother of two young daughters who has served as a park ranger for about four years. King said Anderson's husband also was working as a ranger elsewhere in the park at the time of the shooting.

I'm sure her husband and two motherless kids don't mind though. I mean this is what it means to be truly free in this great country. They'll no doubt appreciate that and blow it all off in the next few days I'm sure.

Either that or the shooter just recognized a government official coming for his own freedom. I mean that's why we have the second amendment right?

 

[Silver]

She's with Jesus now. We are all better off, really.

It's a shame you can't see that, but you're so busy licking the jackboot of the federal government that I wouldn't expect you to understand the good news about Jesus anyways.

 

[Westy]

Gun control in the form of accurate return fire is the only solution to situations like this. The undoubtedly liberal Ranger died because god hates fags, or something like that.

 

[Silver]

Gun control in the form of accurate return fire is the only solution to situations like this. The undoubtedly liberal Ranger died because god hates fags, or something like that.

She died because she wasn't in the house fulfilling her duties as a breeding sow like a woman of her age is biblically instructed to do

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Just gotta hit 'em right. My Dad used to tell me how they fed themselves during the Depression with red squirrel...take them with a head shot from the flank with a .22. Grey squirrel was bad, too stringy and gamey. Mind you I have never confirmed this. It was easier to bag a McDonalds cheeseburger in my (child)hood...

In one of my rare experimentations with hunting, I bagged a couple of grey squirrels, which I cleaned and cooked. The results were somewhat like beef jerky made from case hardened steel with bones thrown in just to increase the confusion factor. Made carbon fiber look like jello. Contributed to my conviction that hunting is not my game.

 

[sanjuro]

Oh look, more freedom.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/01/ranger-killed-in-mount-rainier-national-park-shooting/

Happy new years!

I'm sure her husband and two motherless kids don't mind though. I mean this is what it means to be truly free in this great country. They'll no doubt appreciate that and blow it all off in the next few days I'm sure.

Either that or the shooter just recognized a government official coming for his own freedom. I mean that's why we have the second amendment right?

Only if Obama had continued to ban loaded firearms in National Parks, the Iraqi War veteran with an assault rifle and body armor would had left his AR-15 or AK-47 in the trunk of his car, instead of in easy reach just in case of a traffic stop.

Really, the veteran who is possibly suffering from PTSD would have kept his 22 target rifle, excuse me, his assault rifle, at home because he would have gotten an gun possession charge if the law were still in effect.

And I should I point now that every other person in Mt Rainier who came armed is now that much safer while a crazy man with an assault rifle is roaming the woods?

 

[kidwoo]

A .22 isn't an assault rifle. I lernt that from mooshoo. Jeesh.


Yes that's very relevant to 1 minute intervals of this event in particular but what exactly is your point?

For all your whining about the NRA it sure sounds a lot like you agree with them that as a long term societal solution, more guns is the (only) answer.

 

[TheMontashu]

A .22 isn't an assault rifle. I lernt that from mooshoo. Jeesh.


Yes that's very relevant to 1 minute intervals of this event in particular but what exactly is your point?

For all your whining about the NRA it sure sounds a lot like you agree with them that as a long term societal solution, more guns is the (only) answer.

Did you also learn to make arguments based on single cases and emotional tirades? Because really as you once again fail to understand, this is a complicated issue. So what should we do?? billy who ever the heck got shot, lets turn in ALL our guns so no one will get shot anymore. Riddle me this, every "law abiding" citizen in the country now turns in their guns, and in a stroke of kidwoo brilliance you some how convince every armed criminal to now give up their guns without you yourself getting shot by one of them.

Or we can play this game, find some statistics where gun control has shown in the united states to have any sort of effect on gun violence in the last 30 years. Seriously dude, try it. As well, while you're pouring over said statistics, notice that the states with the highest rate of gun control have some of the highest murder rates.

 

[sanjuro]

A .22 isn't an assault rifle. I lernt that from mooshoo. Jeesh.

Yes that's very relevant to 1 minute intervals of this event in particular but what exactly is your point?

For all your whining about the NRA it sure sounds a lot like you agree with them that as a long term societal solution, more guns is the (only) answer.

You mean because I don't lecture about how guns are the source of all evil, that makes me Wayne LaPierre?

My point is that we need closer analysis about the cause of gun crimes.

Your knee-jerk comment about Mt Rainier is the perfect example of that.

Would banning loaded firearms in National Parks stopped Benjamin Colton Barnes from carrying a loaded assault rifle? I think anyone who is willing to kill over a traffic stop is homicidal before he loaded his gun or stepped into his car.

As I look more into it, Barnes is suspected of shooting 4 people in Seattle early in the morning. He also looks somewhat homicidal:

A more intelligent analysis would have been to find the deeper cause. In this preliminary article, he had a DUI charge as well as a mental evaluation requested.

The question I have is how can we institute mental health checks to prevent psychos from acquiring guns without trampling the 4th and the 2nd Amendment.

Like I said, I want deeper understanding of our gun rights and laws, not jingoistic comments from either side of the debate.

 

[TheMontashu]

Take car of our vets better maybe???? Would that not be a better solution in this case for society as well as people's well being.

 

[JohnE]

Enofrce the laws already in place...then start thinking about new ones.

 

[stevew]

The question I have is how can we institute mental health checks......

if only we could do this for elected officials...

 

[kidwoo]

My point is that we need closer analysis about the cause of gun crimes.

Right, and in the meantime keep the artillery readily available to people like this. Because hey, it has nothing to do with the guns, it's solely just a mental health issue. And since that field is so well understood and respected, we should just completely rely on that and in the meantime keep fighting for the right to availability.

There's absolutely nothing in that story that changes my opinion or how I would have presented it, and honestly I can't even really believe you would even see it that way.

The idea of a fostering culture seems lost on you in this one. You've even brought it up yourself so that's a little odd to me.

The very topic you brought up in this thread is the culture the NRA creates where you have to be open to the idea of these kinds of weapons being available or you're not seeing 'both sides'. One 'side' is made up of freaks who had to find a hobby after mommy took their dungeons and dragons sets away.

 

[Silver]

Witnesses said several people at the party were armed and had a "show and tell" with their guns," said Sgt. Cindi West with the King County Sheriff's Office. Just before 3:00 am an argument started over a gun. A shootout ensued during the argument which resulted in four people being shot.

I don't who you are, that's funny.

(Read it aloud in the Larry the Cable guy fake hick accent, it works better, imo.)

 

[TheMontashu]

Right, and in the meantime keep the artillery readily available to people like this. Because hey, it has nothing to do with the guns, it's solely just a mental health issue. And since that field is so well understood and respected, we should just completely rely on that and in the meantime keep fighting for the right to availability.

There's absolutely nothing in that story that changes my opinion or how I would have presented it, and honestly I can't even really believe you would even see it that way.

The idea of a fostering culture seems lost on you in this one. You've even brought it up yourself so that's a little odd to me.

The very topic you brought up in this thread is the culture the NRA creates where you have to be open to the idea of these kinds of weapons being available or you're not seeing 'both sides'. One 'side' is made up of freaks who had to find a hobby after mommy took their dungeons and dragons sets away.

Alright Kevin, calling you out here on this one few things here

1) you ignored every single point that me and sanjuro made except for one, see as much as you would like it to be true, ignoring facts in a complicated issue in order to prove your argument, makes your argument incomplete, and often times incorrect, you pick and choose a few knee jerk reactions while ignoring real facts in order to develop an opinion. It makes you look dumber than me sir.

2) Do you know any one who is a hobbyist shooter?? You clearly do not, of the group of guys me and my dad shoot with, there is a dentist going to the olympics, chemists, engineers, doctors, and lawyers. In fact, I can't think of a singe one who DIDN'T go to college. It really isn't a bunch of merica loving white trash.

 

[Silver]

2) Do you know any one who is a hobbyist shooter?? You clearly do not, of the group of guys me and my dad shoot with, there is a dentist going to the olympics, chemists, engineers, doctors, and lawyers. In fact, I can't think of a singe one who DIDN'T go to college. It really isn't a bunch of merica loving white trash.

Do you know any coffee drinkers?

(Serious question. This is going somewhere, I promise.)

 

[TheMontashu]

Do you know any coffee drinkers?

(Serious question. This is going somewhere, I promise.)

loads

 

[dante]

2) Do you know any one who is a hobbyist shooter?? You clearly do not, of the group of guys me and my dad shoot with, there is a dentist going to the olympics, chemists, engineers, doctors, and lawyers. In fact, I can't think of a singe one who DIDN'T go to college. It really isn't a bunch of merica loving white trash.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[Silver]

loads

Ok, great.

How many coffee drinkers do you know that roast their own coffee beans, make their own blends of green beans, have pretty much every brew method under the sun available, and keep logs of the espresso shots they pull along with boiler pressures and the weather that day?

 

[TheMontashu]

Ok, great.

How many coffee drinkers do you know that roast their own coffee beans, make their own blends of green beans, have pretty much every brew method under the sun available, and keep logs of the espresso shots they pull along with boiler pressures and the weather that day?

None. But I know plenty of shooters who get that serious about shooting.