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World Cup #2 - La Bresse, France

boogenman

Turbo Monkey
Nov 3, 2004
4,290
973
BUFFALO
After seeing that course I don't understand why the US can't get it together and host a WC race. We certainly have some better venues/courses than that one.

I would love to see a WC race at Whiteface in Lake Placid on the 5k DH course.

7 minute times on a pretty technical track sure would play with points.
 

Cooke

Chimp
Apr 1, 2008
13
0
judging the course by the helmet cam, am I the only one that thinks this course is going to be ultimately lame.......

edit:
sorry didn't read through all the pages, guess rain is the only deciding factor into whether this course will be okay or not.
 
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Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Windham, NY has a Cat1 UCI xc and downhill this year.......................I think I know what that means
It means a promoter put his money where his mouth is and fronted the prize money, commissar fees, race fees etc. Also means he will get an incredible turnout and probably a decent return on his investment.

It also means that the rumours I have heard about 2010 are getting closer to being true. :)
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
Will never happen. UCI World Cup rules say 5 minutes max.
Rules change...
see the 9 minute Vail world cups....
see the 8 minute Kaprun world cups...
see the 7 minute Hindelang world cups...

never say never.

I 'believe' the 'rules' mandate something about features as well and clearly we are not meeting that. Also the rules say that thing about being able to shuttle so many people per hour or something and we all know that rule has been broken many times (sh1tty shuttle trucks, broken chairlifts).
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Rules change...
see the 9 minute Vail world cups....
see the 8 minute Kaprun world cups...
see the 7 minute Hindelang world cups...

never say never.

I 'believe' the 'rules' mandate something about features as well and clearly we are not meeting that. Also the rules say that thing about being able to shuttle so many people per hour or something and we all know that rule has been broken many times (sh1tty shuttle trucks, broken chairlifts).
Actually they only say max 5 minutes, X amount of people uplifted per hour and amount of uphill grade allowed.

They were only added to the rule book a few years ago. Pretty sure it's a safe bet you won't see any more 9 minute courses. Hell, they even had to have ste anne buldoze some **** to shorten the duration of the track.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
UCI Rule Book said:
§ 2Course
4.3.004 The course for a downhill must follow a descending route

4.3.005 The course should comprise varied terrain sections: narrow and broad tracks, woodland roads and paths, field paths and rocky tracks. There should be a mixture of fast and technical sections . The emphasis of the course should be to test the riders' technical skills rather than their physical ability.
(text modified on 25.09.07).

4.3.006 The length of the course and the duration of the event are determined as follows:
Minimum Maximum
Course length 1500 m 3500 m
Duration of the event 2 minutes 5 minutes
A race on a course where the time taken is below the minimum or exceeds the maximum set above may only be held if it is the subject of an exemption issued by the UCI mountain bike commission.
(text modified on 25.09.07).

4.3.007 [Article transferred to art. 4.1.042 on 25.09.07].

4.3.008 The course of a downhill must be marked as per articles 4.2.018 to 4.2.027.

4.3.009 The use of straw bales to mark off the course is not permitted.

4.3.010 The start area must be at least 1 meter and no more than 2 meters wide. The start area must be covered. The finish area must be at least 6 meters wide.
(text modified on 25.09.08).

4.3.011There must be a braking area of a minimum 50m after the finish line. This area must be free of obstacles.
(text modified on 25.09.07).
-ska todd
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
am i reading 4.3.005 right?

Because if i am, they have blatantly disregarded their own rules for these first two tracks.
My guess is you're mixing up should with must, will, or shall.

what I want to know is why the discrimination against straw bales?! wouldn't they be better than tape?
 

dondon

Monkey
am i reading 4.3.005 right?

Because if i am, they have blatantly disregarded their own rules for these first two tracks.
Don't know about Labresse so i wont comment on that until i have seen it in real life next weekend. But the SA track pretty much had every point in rule 4.3.005 covered. Otherwise yo wouldn't have seen last years top 4 riders all on the podium and riders like CK throwing down fast times all week. People fail to realize that being fit and strong is just as important on a track like Schladming as it is in South Africa.
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
Anyone else notice in the video there are 2 or 3 corners near the end where if the racer blows a corner the consequence is falling off a cliff....?...maybe not quite a cliff but it looks pretty severe....

Guess they'll put some fencing up....:monkey:
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Don't know about Labresse so i wont comment on that until i have seen it in real life next weekend. But the SA track pretty much had every point in rule 4.3.005 covered. Otherwise yo wouldn't have seen last years top 4 riders all on the podium and riders like CK throwing down fast times all week. People fail to realize that being fit and strong is just as important on a track like Schladming as it is in South Africa.
It's important but in not the same on both tracks. On one track you don't really pedal that much and just need your fitness to be able to control your bike fully within your abilities while the other needed much more pedaling and clearly all the guys with worse fitness were further away even though they could easily hit top5 at tracks like Schlad. Saying that you need the same fitness levels to win on that tracks is absurd. The only question is if the wins on the more pedaly tracks are still decided by skill. I won't go that way but with tracks like stromlo and others you are getting closer to that very fluid barier and I think UCI should avoid controversy here instead just choose venues by who can put the cash out.
 
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AlmostHeaven

Turbo Monkey
Jun 8, 2005
1,164
0
VIRGINIA
so dont do the full 5k...whiteface has the ability to host a W.C. event no? i mean they had the olympics there
Plenty more places on the East Coast have the possibility of hosting a W.C.
It's not like there are a select few, the list is quite extensive.

Everyone knows about the Massanutten Yee-Ha race every year right? How many people know of/remember the W.C. that took place there in 1997?
Hell, that was 12 years ago and even though it isn't as hardcore as P-kill, Snowshoe, Mt Snow, etc., there is an obviously higher degree of difficulty than the first 2009 W.C., and looks like it will also eclipse the technicality of the second one this year as well.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Plenty more places on the East Coast have the possibility of hosting a W.C.
It's not like there are a select few, the list is quite extensive.

Everyone knows about the Massanutten Yee-Ha race every year right? How many people know of/remember the W.C. that took place there in 1997?
Hell, that was 12 years ago and even though it isn't as hardcore as P-kill, Snowshoe, Mt Snow, etc., there is an obviously higher degree of difficulty than the first 2009 W.C., and looks like it will also eclipse the technicality of the second one this year as well.
There is plenty of places in the US that could hold the race, but I'm not sure there are plenty of promoters who could/want to hold the race.

Also, I think liability $$$ issues are much more prevalent in the US for promoters. The insurance costs are sky high compared to other places for both the promoter and the venue? I could be wrong, but that's my guess.
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
There is plenty of places in the US that could hold the race, but I'm not sure there are plenty of promoters who could/want to hold the race.

Also, I think liability $$$ issues are much more prevalent in the US for promoters. The insurance costs are sky high compared to other places for both the promoter and the venue? I could be wrong, but that's my guess.
I think we will see 9 minute tracks before we see a world cup in the USA ;)
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
My guess is you're mixing up should with must, will, or shall.
which wouldn't be such an uncommon thing, plenty of lawyers and lawyer-wannabes, and plenty of legislators and regulators, think that should and shall are the same thing

you seem to think must and shall are the same, they're not. shall means "will" as in I will do that, I shall do that. it's not a mandate.

"must" -- that's a mandate

"will" -- not a mandate but a statement of intent

"shall" -- not a mandate but a statement of intent

"should" -- not a mandate but a mere suggestion

the trick to writing rules, laws, regulations is to use words that have no possible alternative meaning. this means the words will, shall, should are terrible for rules, laws, regulations. if you have to do something, use a word of mandate, not a suggestion or a statement of intent.

Okay, back to La Bresse!!
 
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slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
which wouldn't be such an uncommon thing, plenty of lawyers and lawyer-wannabes, and plenty of legislators and regulators, think that should and shall are the same thing

you seem to think must and shall are the same, they're not. shall means "will" as in I will do that, I shall do that. it's not a mandate.

"must" -- that's a mandate

"will" -- not a mandate but a statement of intent

"shall" -- not a mandate but a statement of intent

"should" -- not a mandate but a mere suggestion

the trick to writing rules, laws, regulations is to use words that have no possible alternative meaning. this means the words will, shall, should are terrible for rules, laws, regulations. if you have to do something, use a word of mandate, not a suggestion or a statement of intent.

Okay, back to La Bresse!!
I know full well the difference between must, will and shall... that's why I make my living in the field of public policy (and not law!!!); I was merely pointing out the nuances. In the end, what I was saying is that the tracks we've been writing about don't contravene the regulation, given the wording of the regs. Even if they're sh!tty and there are other better tracks out there.

I hope that enough people will ride the track to properly bed it in, and that it will make for exciting racing come race day... But before that we have the 4X in Houffalize to contend with... hopefully they've built something worthwhile there too.
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
I agree with ya slyfink. I think I was just voicing frustration with all the times in the past I've had to correct someone's misuse of "shall".:biggrin:
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
There is plenty of places in the US that could hold the race, but I'm not sure there are plenty of promoters who could/want to hold the race.

Also, I think liability $$$ issues are much more prevalent in the US for promoters. The insurance costs are sky high compared to other places for both the promoter and the venue? I could be wrong, but that's my guess.
From what I best understand, the issue more lies in how mountain bike events are organized in the US vs Europe, as well as imposed scheduling and time lines by the UCI. Several promoters over the past couple years have expressed interest. Unfortunately, the promotion of events happens a bit quicker in the US and aren't necessarily organized 18 mos to 2 yrs out. The US organizers don't have their governments front/bond money to put on a World Cup, and thus it must come from their pockets. The sponsorship of the event can be sold to offset this but, a lot of (most) US companies see mountain bike fitting in further down on their budget list, so those funds don't get allocated so far in advance.

This leaves the promoter to make a potential giant financial gamble. Because the UCI typically won't grant multi-year deals to new promoters, they have little chance of amortizing some of those expenses over a 2 or 3 year period. Some promoters (Gestev & Ft William for example) built quality events years ago that now would be sacrilege to remove from the calendar.

Additionally, due to protected dates (Nat & Cont champs take the first 3 weekends in July) and the flow of the schedule, there is a narrow window that the US venues can hold an event. It either has to be early on the schedule (too much snow on mtns so only XC - like Napa) or linked in front or behind a Canada event (such as MSA - try pulling a trailer from MSA to NM or to fly to Brazil on back-to-back weeks LOL). Maybe with Worlds at MSA in 2010 this will open up opportunities for June (when MSA has often been scheduled), late July (when it currently is), or late August (before Worlds). But, then again who knows until a prelim schedule is announced.

Not easy problems, but I do know that the UCI and USAC are both highly interested and motivated in having World Cup events back in the USA. the sponsors ask the UCI for it, the trade teams ask, and the pro riders ask.

-ska todd
 

DownhillR3

Monkey
May 31, 2007
630
0
Ska Todd, I like your explanation about why UCI World Cups won't be held in the states. Kinda figured it was due to liabilty and not having enough funds...mountain biking just isn't big here like it is in Europe. I can't say for sure, but the US should look into Whiteface Mtn. to hold a WorldCup. I'm sure there are plenty of other mountains out west that are better, but since the World Cups already go to Mount Saint Anne/Bromont, Whiteface wouldn't be that long of haul for the teams. Then again, Whiteface is the only "real" mountain i've ever ridden DH, besides Diablo. So in the end, i'm biased, but I would love to see a World Cup come to America, hopefully within the next 10 years.
 

AlmostHeaven

Turbo Monkey
Jun 8, 2005
1,164
0
VIRGINIA
The track was nearly unrideable in the wet....by the best in the world.
poor course design and construction?
quite sure it wasn't the technical aspect hindering the riders, but rather the consistency and nature of the mud pretty much made it impossible to ride.


Top 5 'most retarded events' ever (in the rain, massanutten)
for what reason? why is it anymore "retarded" than Canberra, La Bresse, or PMB?