blatent copying is one thing (cough cough, RF, cough cough, FSA...). blatant copying and claiming to be a "long term pioneer" coming out with something that has been seen on the mountains for over a year is completely different.
BMXers have been doing that for years, the difference is that it is still mounted on the cranks/spider/chainring. The taco setup on an LG-1 was pretty origional in that it was mounted to the boomerang itself. This can be risky though as it is more prone to damaging the frame, but for racers that are willing to keep up on everything it is worth it. As far as I see it, this MRP is a super risky move for them, patents aside.
Needless to say............the decision to run the guard underneath the bottom pulley to protect it is a good move.
Something an LG/taco setup lacks no?
Probably going to hit it easier since it's lower but definite tags to the pulley get averted.
Something an LG/taco setup lacks no?
Probably going to hit it easier since it's lower but definite tags to the pulley get averted.
A properly setup LG1 should have the idler tucked up out of the way of impacts.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment. A Blackspire is a "minor improvement" on the original MRP design. An e.thirteen is a totally different system IMO. I digress though, no need to discuss further.
I don't remember seeing any LG-1 guides coming with a stock taco...
One of the things I'm seeing here is two ways of looking at the same thing. Dave and some of the engineering types see differences between products that a lot of the masses don't necessarily pick up on or care about. To the average consumer all standard chainguides are an outer bash, an inner boomerang of some kind, a top guide piece and a bottom guide piece. Plastic, metal, urethane roller, or deraileur-type cog. To most people these are minor things, but to the designer these are things that they've spent time on refining to make their product better.
Same with an srs.
Mine is up as far as it will go on a demo 8 and it looks appropriate.
I still knocked the crap out of it one run last weekend.
dw said:
Nice! Any plans to have the product out soon? I'm definitely interested in seeing what your version looks like.
Except that you've never made it.
MRP has brought something to market that people have been clamoring for ever since the production of the LG1. If you haven't because you're afraid of damaging frames, that's fine, more power to you. Why not let MRP stick their necks out on the line and see what happens, as opposed to announcing on a public message board that you (in all but wording) intend to sue their asses for patent infringement - patents that aren't even approved yet?
Sorry if I'm off the wall here, but it just seems like the wrong path to embark upon...
Agrea with blue, If you had put it to market first Id have it on my ride now. As soon as ones available either yours or MRP's Ill be buying one. I like the looks of the MRP so for me to go that way is easy.
DW I am not siding one way or the other, I am only speaking from a consumers standpoint. I have ran you guides for a while before swapping to Gamut (weight reduction) I love them both, I was MRP before that. Now that they have put what I consider to be the next evolution in guides worth trying to hash on I am going to get it. If you guys had put it out there then Id be rocking an e13 again. I have never and wont say bad things about any of the 3 companies (Gamut, E13, MRP) all 3 of you guys have put out some incredible products that have saved us as consumers a ton of money, lost time, bad race times due to no chain and damage to parts . All 3 products IMO are the triad of chain domination,
.
DW I am not siding one way or the other, I am only speaking from a consumers standpoint. I have ran you guides for a while before swapping to Gamut (weight reduction) I love them both, I was MRP before that. Now that they have put what I consider to be the next evolution in guides worth trying to hash on I am going to get it. If you guys had put it out there then Id be rocking an e13 again. I have never and wont say bad things about any of the 3 companies (Gamut, E13, MRP) all 3 of you guys have put out some incredible products that have saved us as consumers a ton of money, lost time, bad race times due to no chain and damage to parts . All 3 products IMO are the triad of chain domination,
.
Did you give it a standing O...
Let me recap what I've written here, just to make sure that I am being totally clear. It seems that there is some confusion on your part and I want to make sure that I am not providing confusing information.
1) There is a set timeline for the introduction and sale of e.thirteen products that has been set in motion long ago.
2) Some products that have been sold at the OEM level have not been sold in bike shops as of today. That does not mean that your distributor or whatever does not have them on order etc.. It just means that you don't have all of the information here.
3) You can't "sue somebody" without a patent. You can however, choose not to release a product while during the patent pending stage. This helps to keep from encouraging the competition from using the technology before the patent is awarded. Simple business strategy, and one that e.thirteen has followed in this case.
4) I can't speak for the MRP product, but we are confident with the performance of the e.thirteen product and it will continue to improve through innovation and testing.
Time??? I don't know is it was much time refining....
But to charge more than 100usd for a piece of alloy, two injected plastics, a roller and a couple of bolts it must be a lot of time spend by this Super ego'ed engineers, beacuase i don't see to much material or productions costs to charge that amounts
supply and demand. Doesn't matter how much is costs to make it, only what consumers are willing to pay for it. Do you really think it costs that much to manufacture an iPhone? What about a BMW 7 Series? Are they really using that much more expensive materials than in a toyota camrey?
Yes, they are. It's the German way...
Figures there'd be at least one beemer lover on here to give me a hard time.
Iphone $priceless
I have one (8gb) and love it.
BMW $priceless
BMW had 5 and looking to get another 5 series.
Not so much love, but the "BMW way" of building things will always make them cost more...not to say it's a better way
The beauty of it is, no one is forcing you or anyone else to buy any product. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it.
If you think you can make a better product you're free to enter in the market. If it works as good or better, and you charge less people will buy it. That's true competition.
There's a reason why chain guides are looking more and more like e13 chainguides.
explain why? or is the true that hurts you.thats one of the most ignorant statements ive read on this forum
Oh i forgot that Sam Hill runs one on his bike......
Whatever... they could charge 250 bucks if they wanted.....and there still be a bunch of smart asses buying them
It couldnt be done or atleast done right, the moulds for injection + plastic composite + bearings, machined metal plate etc... Try 1k -2k minimum. Heck goggle moulds outa china are around 5k or waived with a 2000 minimum first order.
For this reason I will gladly pay $100+ for a good chain guide and compliment the supplier for making it easy for me.
yea, why would you want to buy a product of a company that dumps countless amounts of money back into the very sport we all love. Who really cares about sponsoring race series, AM and pro riders, and providing tech support at events anyways.
Because they didnt hit the market first on a consumers level with a product that has a calling for it.
I like e13 but none the less I will ride whats right for me and my style.
yeah
ya giving money to other riders so they can ride more than me really helps me and other consumers out.......
(yes i know product testing and what not but lets not kid ourselves here about why pro riders get money)
As far as I know, e13 doesn't pay their riders to ride their product.
Absolutely correct. e.13 does not pay a single rider to ride their product, yet big name riders still come asking for it by name...
I used to work with an engineer that told me a story. He was working on a pipeline in Lebanon. He had some drawings and was going out to the work site. One of the "worker bees" was giving him a hard time and was saying something along the lines of, "All you do is draw lines all day". My co-worker replied, "Yes, but the trick is knowing where to put the lines"
Sufficed to say, is an E13 guide "merely" a lump of plastic? I suppose. But the lump of plastic is the right shape. And as his reward for making it the right shape, dw deserves to be able to by groceries.
(...and his own R-44 so he can get on and off the island easier......)
Sufficed to say, is an E13 guide "merely" a lump of plastic? I suppose. But the lump of plastic is the right shape. And as his reward for making it the right shape, dw deserves to be able to by groceries.
(...and his own R-44 so he can get on and off the island easier......)
Warning, long rant ahead:
Wow
. The ignorance just drips from this statement. Spoken like someone who's never even been near the manufacturing world.I can think of about a half dozen pieces of manufacturing equipment alone that would be required to produce the chainguide, and I'm sure I'm leaving some out because I don't actually know their manufacturing process (gosh, see that, I'm not making ignorant assumptions). You need to either own those machines, or contract someone out who does own them - either way, it's expensive, as they don't rent out CNC and injection molding machines and their operating staff for a Burger King salary. Then you need to buy the raw materials. I don't know what the cost is to develop and produce a proprietary lexan composite but I'll tell you this: it ain't cheap. Whoever is making it is not making it 10 metric tons at a time, so economies of scale aren't as good as they could be.
To top all that off, you need an engineer to spend a lot of hours in front of a computer screen designing, testing, designing and testing. Figuring out what's going to fit with various frame designs. Figuring out what's going to happen when Rider A smacks his boomerang on a log. Figuring out exactly what's going to happen to the lexan while it gets beat up.
All this, and they haven't even made one single damn chainguide yet.
After they make a few, it's testing time. Test, feedback, design changes, more production. More tests. The cycle repeats, several times. All the while, they aren't selling anything. Most small business owners eat a lot of Ramen for a while unless they have a nest egg. When they finally do get to selling them, there are packaging costs, shipping costs from the factory, stocking costs, time spent managing inventory, time spent taking orders, time spent shipping to customers. This is, of course, assuming that everything goes perfectly. That never happens, so they're paying for hiccups, delays in production, problems with a batch of plastics, problems with the tolerances on a machine, problems problems problems. They're also paying to maintain a website, apply for patents, develop future products and keep staff on hand to help people like you out when you can't figure out how to install it on your new bike.
This doesn't just go for E.13, it goes for everyone, and I think it's utterly pathetic the number of people who look at something and say, "I could make that for way less money." You have no friggin' clue how much money it takes to run a manufacturing line. I'm sure E.13 is making a healthy profit off the chainguides, but comments about it being driven by super ego engineers are just lame.
You forgot marketing BV. That alone can cost as much as everything else. I am glad you stepped in and set the record straight.Warning, long rant ahead:
Wow
I can think of about a half dozen pieces of manufacturing equipment alone that would be required to produce the chainguide, and I'm sure I'm leaving some out because I don't actually know their manufacturing process (gosh, see that, I'm not making ignorant assumptions). You need to either own those machines, or contract someone out who does own them - either way, it's expensive, as they don't rent out CNC and injection molding machines and their operating staff for a Burger King salary. Then you need to buy the raw materials. I don't know what the cost is to develop and produce a proprietary lexan composite but I'll tell you this: it ain't cheap. Whoever is making it is not making it 10 metric tons at a time, so economies of scale aren't as good as they could be.
To top all that off, you need an engineer to spend a lot of hours in front of a computer screen designing, testing, designing and testing. Figuring out what's going to fit with various frame designs. Figuring out what's going to happen when Rider A smacks his boomerang on a log. Figuring out exactly what's going to happen to the lexan while it gets beat up.
All this, and they haven't even made one single damn chainguide yet.
After they make a few, it's testing time. Test, feedback, design changes, more production. More tests. The cycle repeats, several times. All the while, they aren't selling anything. Most small business owners eat a lot of Ramen for a while unless they have a nest egg. When they finally do get to selling them, there are packaging costs, shipping costs from the factory, stocking costs, time spent managing inventory, time spent taking orders, time spent shipping to customers. This is, of course, assuming that everything goes perfectly. That never happens, so they're paying for hiccups, delays in production, problems with a batch of plastics, problems with the tolerances on a machine, problems problems problems. They're also paying to maintain a website, apply for patents, develop future products and keep staff on hand to help people like you out when you can't figure out how to install it on your new bike.
This doesn't just go for E.13, it goes for everyone, and I think it's utterly pathetic the number of people who look at something and say, "I could make that for way less money." You have no friggin' clue how much money it takes to run a manufacturing line. I'm sure E.13 is making a healthy profit off the chainguides, but comments about it being driven by super ego engineers are just lame.
Actually, I deliberately left marketing out because E.13 doesn't advertise. But you're right, for most companies the cost to market is very large.
e.13 does both print ads and some on-line ad starring a guy named Tobler...
Warning, long rant ahead:
Wow
I can think of about a half dozen pieces of manufacturing equipment alone that would be required to produce the chainguide, and I'm sure I'm leaving some out because I don't actually know their manufacturing process (gosh, see that, I'm not making ignorant assumptions). You need to either own those machines, or contract someone out who does own them - either way, it's expensive, as they don't rent out CNC and injection molding machines and their operating staff for a Burger King salary. Then you need to buy the raw materials. I don't know what the cost is to develop and produce a proprietary lexan composite but I'll tell you this: it ain't cheap. Whoever is making it is not making it 10 metric tons at a time, so economies of scale aren't as good as they could be.
To top all that off, you need an engineer to spend a lot of hours in front of a computer screen designing, testing, designing and testing. Figuring out what's going to fit with various frame designs. Figuring out what's going to happen when Rider A smacks his boomerang on a log. Figuring out exactly what's going to happen to the lexan while it gets beat up.
All this, and they haven't even made one single damn chainguide yet.
After they make a few, it's testing time. Test, feedback, design changes, more production. More tests. The cycle repeats, several times. All the while, they aren't selling anything. Most small business owners eat a lot of Ramen for a while unless they have a nest egg. When they finally do get to selling them, there are packaging costs, shipping costs from the factory, stocking costs, time spent managing inventory, time spent taking orders, time spent shipping to customers. This is, of course, assuming that everything goes perfectly. That never happens, so they're paying for hiccups, delays in production, problems with a batch of plastics, problems with the tolerances on a machine, problems problems problems. They're also paying to maintain a website, apply for patents, develop future products and keep staff on hand to help people like you out when you can't figure out how to install it on your new bike.
This doesn't just go for E.13, it goes for everyone, and I think it's utterly pathetic the number of people who look at something and say, "I could make that for way less money." You have no friggin' clue how much money it takes to run a manufacturing line. I'm sure E.13 is making a healthy profit off the chainguides, but comments about it being driven by super ego engineers are just lame.
Nathan
It was a general statement aimed at all mfg-athlete sponsorship relationships. I'm sure you understood my point though.
Ahh, sorry, I'm out of the loop. I do remember seeing a few E.13 ads now that you mention it. I haven't thumbed through many biking magazines lately. Point taken. So, there's another cost.e.13 does both print ads and some on-line ad starring a guy named Tobler...
Plus, someone's gotta pay for the company Bentley and the swimming pool full of gold bullion.
