[Patan-DH]

Don't get me wrong bitches, I'm not against E13, BTW i'm currently running a SRS on my dh bike and i just cant't belive that after so much trashing the clear bashguard is still going strong.

But the LG1 is a STEAL face it.
Other point: how comes that the truvativ boxguide cost half of a LG1???

I think production costs between boxguide and LG1 should be arround the same. Explain why is 100% more expensive to produce the LG1

 

[Slugman]

I thikn I can resolve this for everyone rigth now in 2 simple steps:
1. if you like the product, buy it. Other wise do not.
2. Leave it to the lawyers. If MRP is actually infringing on e.13's patent, and taking away enough sales that it affects e.13 - they will lose the lawsuit. If not - then the issue is resolved.

Done...

 

[FriedRys]

No fair, I made point two in the OTHER thread about this, I call plagirism!!

 

[SPINTECK]

We're all a bunch of stupid Americans b/c we don't give a **** where anything is made anymore!!

I'd rather pay double for a chain guide made here (or even Taiwan) than a Truvative (aren't they owned by SRAM- China central) foreign made guide. OF course those 12 year olds make some sweet stuff!

And yes, there is much more to the cost of production that an hour labor and supplies. You need to incorporate the facility (rent, mortgage, taxes), electricity, insurance, wages, equipment wear and so on.

 

[binary visions]

Other point: how comes that the truvativ boxguide cost half of a LG1???

I think production costs between boxguide and LG1 should be arround the same. Explain why is 100% more expensive to produce the LG1

Exactly, you think. You don't know.

First off, Truvativ has a far larger financial and manufacturing base than E.13. They have far greater pull with material vendors to get cheaper prices on raw materials by ordering in bulk. They have a lot of manufacturing systems in place currently. They already have a stocking, sales and distribution chain in place. They sell a large number and variety of products, which means they can afford to make a smaller profit margin on each individual product. Much of what they make - I would guess the Boxguide included but I'm not sure - is made overseas where labor is cheaper, and since they already make a lot of products overseas, it is economical for them to do so. A huge chunk of the cost associated with manufacturing is getting these systems up and running - once you have a manufacturing plant or a contracted vendor, it's a lot cheaper to add a product then it is to start from scratch.

The E.13 guys aren't going home and rolling around in piles of money. If you don't understand manufacturing, you should stop guessing - and sticking by your guns after the gaps in your knowledge have been clearly laid out is just foolish. It's okay that you don't have a good grasp of the way a manufacturing, sales and distribution chain works - my last job was working with and developing a large manufacturing/sales/distribution system, which is why I know. But learn, don't insist that you're still right.

 

[gemini2k]

Exactly, you think. You don't know.

First off, Truvativ has a far larger financial and manufacturing base than E.13. They have far greater pull with material vendors to get cheaper prices on raw materials by ordering in bulk. They have a lot of manufacturing systems in place currently. They already have a stocking, sales and distribution chain in place. They sell a large number and variety of products, which means they can afford to make a smaller profit margin on each individual product. Much of what they make - I would guess the Boxguide included but I'm not sure - is made overseas where labor is cheaper, and since they already make a lot of products overseas, it is economical for them to do so. A huge chunk of the cost associated with manufacturing is getting these systems up and running - once you have a manufacturing plant or a contracted vendor, it's a lot cheaper to add a product then it is to start from scratch.

The E.13 guys aren't going home and rolling around in piles of money. If you don't understand manufacturing, you should stop guessing - and sticking by your guns after the gaps in your knowledge have been clearly laid out is just foolish. It's okay that you don't have a good grasp of the way a manufacturing, sales and distribution chain works - my last job was working with and developing a large manufacturing/sales/distribution system, which is why I know. But learn, don't insist that you're still right.

All the more reason for what i've been saying for years. The industry needs bigger players and fewer players, not a million damn frame mfg's. and 15 different chainguides, i mean WTF how many single pivot DH bikes do we NEED?!?!?! There's a reason a dirt bike costs less or as much as a high end DH rig.......and it isn't cause they are simpler or lower quality. BTW, your argument is one against the exsistance of small companies like e-13. And don't gimme the bull**** about small companies doing all the innovation blah blah blah.

(p.s., still love the SRS, the only chainguide i've owned and loved )

 

[SPINTECK]

All the more reason for what i've been saying for years. The industry needs bigger players and fewer players, not a million damn frame mfg's. and 15 different chainguides, i mean WTF how many single pivot DH bikes do we NEED?!?!?! There's a reason a dirt bike costs less or as much as a high end DH rig.......and it isn't cause they are simpler or lower quality. BTW, your argument is one against the exsistance of small companies like e-13. And don't gimme the bull**** about small companies doing all the innovation blah blah blah.

(p.s., still love the SRS, the only chainguide i've owned and loved )

Please tell me you're kidding and I'm just not getting your sarcasm. So you feel if there were fewer frame manufacturers they would generously lower the prices and make less even though they would have a monopoloy??

Just like with big oil- there's only a few players who control the refineries. Oil is less than it was last summer, but gas is much more. They make 36$ per barrel of refined oil versus the usual 9$. I'd use the D R U G companies as an example, but would be fired.

Less competition is never better. Chinese Labor is never better. How we spend our money is one of the few things we control- thank God there are a few homegrown companies still fighting the good fight, now we just need to buy more of their stuff and understand how they set their prices.

 

[blue]

blatent copying is one thing (cough cough, RF, cough cough, FSA...). blatant copying and claiming to be a "long term pioneer" coming out with something that has been seen on the mountains for over a year is completely different.

I just saw this...

I have a proto FSA guide (for the one currently manufactured) and it does not look like an E.13...I think it just got to the point where the engineers said "this is the only design that consistently works".

Like I said - not rocket science.

 

[binary visions]

The industry needs bigger players and fewer players, not a million damn frame mfg's.

Wrong.

BTW, your argument is one against the exsistance of small companies like e-13.

No, it's not.

kthxbye.

 

[Bicyclist]

pwnd.

 

[frorider]

actually BV you may be missing the point slightly.

i also have worked in product engr and mfg scale-up. so we both understand how that all works.

from the customer perspective, though, they see products at two different prices with similar performance. as you laid it out (correctly) in your post, the materials and overall quality may be very similar, but the manufacturing business model for truvativ is going to have the long-term advantage in this comparison.

look at road bike frames. all the quality carbon frames are coming out of Taiwan. so the hi-end brands like Colnago don't fight that trend, but try to figure out innovative designs and then couple that with the manufacturing scale (and wider technical design feasibility) of the carbon fiber experts in Taiwan. is now a good time to become a custom steel road bike frame company that manufactures in italy or the US? not really, unless you like being poor and working long hours.

i've owned E13 guides for years and while not perfect by any means, they're not bad. however anyone w/ an engr degree can look at a chainguide (which ain't rocket science) and realize that long-term, there will be big companies that make an equally functional product at a lower price.

so the heat is on DW & co. to invent and patent, and try to stay ahead of the curve. we all know the route that keith bontrager took...

 

[binary visions]

I agree that Truvativ is at an advantage. That wasn't really his point, though, as his perspective was simply that E.13 was charging an unreasonable amount compared to whatever production cost estimation had previously exited his posterior.

I do agree with your point, though. I think that's why it's important for us, as consumers, to make smart decisions with what we buy and not always work for our own personal bottom line. I will support companies like E.13 over companies like Truvativ even if it's a little more out of my pocket because if they are the same or better functionally, E.13 is providing better customer service and encouraging small companies is a good practice.

It's very similar to why you should take your business to a local bike shop if they're worthy of it (not all of them are, mind you). Money goes back into the local community, another small shop is kept in business, and in return there are perks just like there are perks to supporting E.13. I inquired with John P. about the new soft rollers on the DRS when they came out - after purchasing a frame and two chainguides from them - and instead of giving me a price, two of them showed up on my doorstep 2 days later. Yes, the chainguide cost more than a boxguide, but there are pros and cons and my idea of responsible purchasing is, if I can afford it, I will pick the company that that has some kind of positive contribution to the industry, whether it's domestic jobs, innovation, good environmental practices, or whatever.

 

[MMike]

Theorectically, if there were fewer manufacturers, then the market would not be split. Therefore that company's volume would be higher and then (again theoretically), they could lower their price. If the overall market volume stays the same, but that volume is split between a large number of small, struggling companies, then they are forced to keep their prices high.... the crazy crazy world of economics....that I don't really understand.....

 

[vitox]

patan and BV:
the difference in price between a truvativ boxguide and an LG1 is easily explained.
the boxguide is stamped steel vs alloy in the LG1, and weighs roughly 100% more than the LG1.
i weighed one and it came out to 394g where the lg1 is sub200 w/o the iscg mount and slightly over 200g.
actually, thats probably one of the cheaper ways to drop weight on a dh bike, dollar for gram.
as for the rest of BV's arguments, i can see the thinking behind them but thats not the reason.

 

[Patan-DH]

Exactly, you think. You don't know.

First off, Truvativ has a far larger financial and manufacturing base than E.13. They have far greater pull with material vendors to get cheaper prices on raw materials by ordering in bulk. They have a lot of manufacturing systems in place currently. They already have a stocking, sales and distribution chain in place. They sell a large number and variety of products, which means they can afford to make a smaller profit margin on each individual product. Much of what they make - I would guess the Boxguide included but I'm not sure - is made overseas where labor is cheaper, and since they already make a lot of products overseas, it is economical for them to do so. A huge chunk of the cost associated with manufacturing is getting these systems up and running - once you have a manufacturing plant or a contracted vendor, it's a lot cheaper to add a product then it is to start from scratch.

The E.13 guys aren't going home and rolling around in piles of money. If you don't understand manufacturing, you should stop guessing - and sticking by your guns after the gaps in your knowledge have been clearly laid out is just foolish. It's okay that you don't have a good grasp of the way a manufacturing, sales and distribution chain works - my last job was working with and developing a large manufacturing/sales/distribution system, which is why I know. But learn, don't insist that you're still right.

Thanks for your answer, It changed my point of view.

A short story:
I tested myself tha E13 service when i bougth a 36t max guide and then after a few weeks i realized that i wanted a 38-42 and they changed my unused chainguide at no charge (not even shipping)
By other side once in the phone with a Giant CS I was asking about the rear spacing on the Faith and the guy was telling me that it was going to work with a regular mtb size hub (note: giant faith uses 12X150mm).

So yes big companies suck a lot, maybe that extra cost in their parts can be a value for us

 

[gemini2k]

Wrong.


No, it's not.

kthxbye.

wow great argument. Are you 12 years old?

 

[gemini2k]

Less competition is never better. Chinese Labor is never better. How we spend our money is one of the few things we control- thank God there are a few homegrown companies still fighting the good fight, now we just need to buy more of their stuff and understand how they set their prices.

Wrong. Wouldn't it be great if we had 2 dozen microchip mfgs instead of 2 (intel and amd) and thus needed 2 dozen different chipsets to run different motherboards to fit every standard and 2 dozen different socket standards ands 24 times as many engineers working on solving the same problems 24 different ways to get around 24 times as many patents. Oh wait, that would suck and raise costs.

Don't you wish that there were 15 operating systems so all programs for computers would have to be re-written 14 times to work on all 15 OS's and have way more bugs? Oh wait that would suck too!

I really wish we had 2 water utilities in my town so we'd have two times the amount of pipes running into every building and twice the plumbing costs. Oh wait, that would be retarded. (okay so this isn't mfg related....sue me)

Oh, I know, I wish instead of GM or toyota being a big company that can mass produce lots of cars and spread the R&D costs over millions of cars that we all had cars made from one of 200 different boutique mfg's so everything would have a million standards and cost an arm and a leg. Geez, wait, thats what happened in 1900, and then things got better and cheaper with less players!!!! (there went from like 250 some car mfg's to like 8 in 10 years back around 1920 or so)

But what about if we had lots of really small oil companies, with each refinery only seving say their local geographic area producing say 1/10th of the output of an average refinery now. ZOMFG 10x as much competition prices would be like 50 cents a gallon!!!! Oh wait, large scale helps make things more efficient and FAR outweigh any loss due to decreased competition

ZOMFG!!!! It's almost like ANY manufactured good benefits from LARGE SCALE MASS PRODUCTION!!! ZOMFG WTF BBQ!!!?!?! Tell Henry Ford i'm filing a patent for the assembly line......

But to put it in economic terms for all you academics, the DH industry suffers from insufficient demand and fragmented production (ooooooh big words). Over time, just like every industy EVER. Companies will consolidate as people realize there's better/cheaper products, more profit, and more stability in have several (not a MONOPOLY) large players. There's no point in designing 15 different single pivot bikes, paying 15x as many engineers to do the exact same thing and file 15x as many patents. See a pattern here? can you draw the obvious logical conclusion? Do I have to bring simpler, more obvious evidence?


p.s. still like the SRS, this is just an observation of a young industry like mountain biking. But the bottom line is, if e-13 made 1 million SRS guides (probably a little unrealistic), they would not be selling for NEAR 120 bucks or whatever they go for now.

 

[SPINTECK]

You make some good points about economies of scale, but we disagree over true competition because you can't compete price-wise when products are made by cheaper labor with less employee and environmental protections- as is my point with SRAM. It's just me fighting the lost battle of fair wages and jobs here- I'm the only person in my family that refuses to shop at Walmart.

The irony is if we spent more money on goods made here (by people with good wages, healthcare and pensions) the chances of our wages going up will increase and there won't be as many poor mountain bikers bitchin' about prices. But since many feel it doesn't matter, it's just a chain guide or it's just competition, we get the opposite, such as lower standard of living, deflating dollar, higher healthcare, less or no pensions.

And I do wish there were more refineries with honest management.

 

[gemini2k]

You make some good points about economies of scale, but we disagree over true competition because you can't compete price-wise when products are made by cheaper labor with less employee and environmental protections- as is my point with SRAM. It's just me fighting the lost battle of fair wages and jobs here- I'm the only person in my family that refuses to shop at Walmart.

The irony is if we spent more money on goods made here (by people with good wages, healthcare and pensions) the chances of our wages going up will increase and there won't be as many poor mountain bikers bitchin' about prices. But since many feel it doesn't matter, it's just a chain guide or it's just competition, we get the opposite, such as lower standard of living, deflating dollar, higher healthcare, less or no pensions.

And I do wish there were more refineries with honest management.

wUrd. Life's complicated. At least we can still argue over the internet so firecley with people we'll never know about things that dont matter :'(.

 

[bdamschen]

Wrong. Wouldn't it be great if we had 2 dozen microchip mfgs instead of 2 (intel and amd) and thus needed 2 dozen different chipsets to run different motherboards to fit every standard and 2 dozen different socket standards ands 24 times as many engineers working on solving the same problems 24 different ways to get around 24 times as many patents. Oh wait, that would suck and raise costs.

This would not be a problem if all the manufacturers got together and agreed on standards. A good example of this would be wireless cards for laptops. There are tons of manufacturers out there, luckily there is the 802.11* standards out there they all conform to. Due to the large presence of aftermarket manufacturers in the bike industry (you hardly ever see a company -specialized excluded- manufacture their own front fork or rear shock) there are standards all over the place.

Small companies are great because it is more in their interest to provide good customer service to each and every customer because one customer is a greater percentage of their profits.

 

[binary visions]

wow great argument. Are you 12 years old?

No, obviously I am not. I didn't feel it was worth typing out a page response to something that is patently untrue. Economies of scale are all well and good but there are approximately six hundred billion other reasons why small manufacturers are a positive influence, not to mention, uh, where do you think the big companies got started?

Some points are worth arguing because, as in Patan's case, it is difficult to have a good perspective on a manufacturing unit if you've never worked in/with one. The reasons why small companies are a positive aspect of any industry are readily apparent and if you can't see why, it's just because you either haven't thought it through or your perspective is so narrow (i.e. prices) that you aren't seeing the whole picture. Take one step beyond the simple formula of large scale = cheaper manufacturing and there is a whole big world out there.

 

[binary visions]

the boxguide is stamped steel vs alloy in the LG1, and weighs roughly 100% more than the LG1.

Ah, there we go - thanks.

I still stand by my arguments, though, since it'd cost Truvativ significantly less to manufacture a duplicate of the LG-1

 

[Brian HCM#1]

This is good reading

 

[FriedRys]

I learned more about the manufacturing set-up process and supply and distribution than I did about the....er.....uh....what the hell was the point of this thread? Ohh yeah, SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL BUSINESSES!!

 

[binary visions]

<political>
Incidentally, I want to apologize somewhat for the bluntness of my comments. It frustrates me to see the American lifestyle of the bottom line being all that matters because it devalues our country. It's cheaper buy from, and manufacture in, foreign countries, which contributes to the fact that America doesn't actually produce anything anymore, which means our skillset as a country is lower and our dependency on foreign sources will eventually catch up with us.

Patan; I wasn't trying to imply stupidity on your part, as nobody knows the true cost of manufacturing unless you've worked there. I stand by the sentiment of my posts, but the wording could have been better
</political>

 

[dw]

Don't get me wrong bitches, I'm not against E13, BTW i'm currently running a SRS on my dh bike and i just cant't belive that after so much trashing the clear bashguard is still going strong.

But the LG1 is a STEAL face it.
Other point: how comes that the truvativ boxguide cost half of a LG1???

I think production costs between boxguide and LG1 should be arround the same. Explain why is 100% more expensive to produce the LG1

I can tell you EXACTLY why actually.

1) backplates:

The boxguide uses a stamped steel and stamped 6061 backplate, both which are stamped in mainland China.

The LG1 uses a CNC machined backplate made from a custom mill run alloy available from a manufacturer here in the USA. The custom alloy is a bit stronger than 6061 but not as strong as 7075. It gives the e.thirteen backplate a superior strength to weight ratio. Based on what we have had quoted in the past, the LG1 backplate costs 7X to 9X more than the boxguide backplate to manufacture.

2) Slider material and manufacturing:

The Boxguide uses an unreinforced nylon top guide. It is injection molded in Asia, most likely China.

The LG1 uses a composite slider material with much greater stiffness and abrasion resistance. This material is significantly more expensive to start. The LG1 sliders are injection molded in Massachusetts, USA, right down the street from the e.thirteen headquarters.

3) bolts and mounting:

The boxguide uses mild steel bolts with a zinc coating, and includes no ISCG adapter etc...

The LG1 includes an ISCG05 adapter plate, stailess steel bolts that will never corrode, and an expensive but very functional lower idler that is quiet and long lasting.

4) Packaging and shipping:

The Boxguide is assembled in Taiwan, and shipped from Taiwan.

The LG1 is assembled in Massachusetts, and Shipped from Massachusetts, USA.


5) Economy of scale and overhead:

The Boxguide is an ancillary product in the SRAM line. It is sold at dirt cheap prices on the OEM market, and this drives units up, reducing cost to manufacture. It is offered as an augment to the Truvativ crank line. SRAM does not need to sell boxguides at a markup to keep in business. This is not the goal of that product. The goal is to support their Truvativ crank line sales at the OEM level. Any additional sales on the aftermarket are icing.

The LG1 is a standalone product from a company that specializes in that area. The e.thirteen line does not support any other line, it IS the line.


I hope that this has been educational for you.

Dave

 

[Polandspring88]

That was very surprising and educational. I only briefly browsed your site, but if e.13 products are indeed manufactured in the US, it would probably be a good idea to note that somewhere on the webpage for those of us who are interested in supporting businesses with manufacturing here at home, especially whereas home is probably only a few miles from where I am.

Dave, do you guys do plant tours at all? Or is your Leominster facility too small for that sort of thing?

 

[dw]

That was very surprising and educational. I only briefly browsed your site, but if e.13 products are indeed manufactured in the US, it would probably be a good idea to note that somewhere on the webpage for those of us who are interested in supporting businesses with manufacturing here at home, especially whereas home is probably only a few miles from where I am.

Dave, do you guys do plant tours at all? Or is your Leominster facility too small for that sort of thing?

Yeah, I agree, its something that we are proud of for sure, we need to talk about it more. e.thirteen is pretty much the only chain guide company building products in the USA.

We don't really do factory tours because there are some proprietary manufacturing techniques that we employ and we try to keep them as secret as possible. If you are even in the area though, feel free to stop by and say hi, the guys are always there.

 

[MMike]

So just because your product is of higher quality, you think you can charge more??

 

[Jim Mac]

I can tell you EXACTLY why actually.

1) backplates:

The boxguide uses a stamped steel and stamped 6061 backplate, both which are stamped in mainland China.

The LG1 uses a CNC machined backplate made from a custom mill run alloy available from a manufacturer here in the USA. The custom alloy is a bit stronger than 6061 but not as strong as 7075. It gives the e.thirteen backplate a superior strength to weight ratio. Based on what we have had quoted in the past, the LG1 backplate costs 7X to 9X more than the boxguide backplate to manufacture.

2) Slider material and manufacturing:

The Boxguide uses an unreinforced nylon top guide. It is injection molded in Asia, most likely China.

The LG1 uses a composite slider material with much greater stiffness and abrasion resistance. This material is significantly more expensive to start. The LG1 sliders are injection molded in Massachusetts, USA, right down the street from the e.thirteen headquarters.

3) bolts and mounting:

The boxguide uses mild steel bolts with a zinc coating, and includes no ISCG adapter etc...

The LG1 includes an ISCG05 adapter plate, stailess steel bolts that will never corrode, and an expensive but very functional lower idler that is quiet and long lasting.

4) Packaging and shipping:

The Boxguide is assembled in Taiwan, and shipped from Taiwan.

The LG1 is assembled in Massachusetts, and Shipped from Massachusetts, USA.


5) Economy of scale and overhead:

The Boxguide is an ancillary product in the SRAM line. It is sold at dirt cheap prices on the OEM market, and this drives units up, reducing cost to manufacture. It is offered as an augment to the Truvativ crank line. SRAM does not need to sell boxguides at a markup to keep in business. This is not the goal of that product. The goal is to support their Truvativ crank line sales at the OEM level. Any additional sales on the aftermarket are icing.

The LG1 is a standalone product from a company that specializes in that area. The e.thirteen line does not support any other line, it IS the line.


I hope that this has been educational for you.

Dave

Layman's version:

My wife initially had a Truvativ Box guide on her dh bike, she killed it in 2 weeks (riding places like Platty, West Mountain, Whiteface). We put a SRS guide on and 2 years later it's stilling rolling strong.

While I admit a positive bias now via the Elevate Cycles/E13 cosponsorship, all this happened way before I was recruited!

 

[gemini2k]

<political>
Incidentally, I want to apologize somewhat for the bluntness of my comments. It frustrates me to see the American lifestyle of the bottom line being all that matters because it devalues our country. It's cheaper buy from, and manufacture in, foreign countries, which contributes to the fact that America doesn't actually produce anything anymore, which means our skillset as a country is lower and our dependency on foreign sources will eventually catch up with us.

How is our skillset lower? We have more people in management and engineering positions as a result of fewer people on the production line in the U.S. We have a lower skill set because people aren't turning screws and welding things on an assembly line as much any more? All it represents is a shift and change in the make up of America's job oppurtunities.

Why does America have to produce everything it uses to be a "good" country as you imply. It's simple laws of production my friend. whether you like it or not it's happening more and more. America is an expensive place to live, thus low wage jobs are not sustainable here. Thus they get moved elsewhere where they are able to provide a decent living. Thus there are unemployed people in the U.S. and they create new jobs at higher paying wages and higher value added positions. There's a reason the standard of living in the U.S. has risen so greatly in the last 50 years as more mfg has moved overseas!

I hate to be a jerk (well actually I'm kind of a douchebag and a tool in real life, but I'm usually right about things), but you really are drawing incorrect (liberal?) conclusions from the information. Moving production overseas does not "devalue" our country. How does dependany on others for production of goods lead to anything horrendous? How will that catch up with us (well, aside from wars with them obviously)? As long as political and trade relations are strong it will improve the standard of living in the world, and reduce political tensions. There's a reason why the U.S. will never go to war with southeast asia, northern Asia, Europe, or Latin America (well most of it at least) It's because we are equally dependant on each other for sustenance. Thst's the beauty of the system, its in both people's best interests I've been to these factories in Asia. I've seen where your computers are made, where Nike shoes are made, where earth moving equipment is made. I've talked to the people. They have much better lives as a result of America's moving production overseas. And I know my life is a lot better when I can buy mass produced goods for way less than before !

 

[gemini2k]

I can tell you EXACTLY why actually.


I hope that this has been educational for you.

Dave

Dood, you're the man. And you're right!

 

[binary visions]

post

Sorry, I don't really have the time or the inclination to write a dissertation on this subject. Suffice to say that I used to think very much like you (and I believe I probably have a posting history to prove it; Jm_ has on at least two occasions pointed out times where my opinion on a subject has changed through experience or additional knowledge - the disadvantage of having the last 5 years of your opinions on display and in archives) - after all, jobs are jobs, right? Who cares if they're administrative/sales jobs instead of manufacturing?

The end result, though, is that is shortsighted thinking. Manufacturing is not as simple as turning screws. In the long term, real, stable wealth comes from more than just trading money around. It comes from owning the production plants that are taking raw materials and adding value to them - after all, that's what manufacturing is. It's taking something that's worth very little on its own and imbuing it with innate value. It comes from having the knowledge of how to manufacture and owning the intellectual property. America doesn't even have the capacity to produce most of what runs our most advanced systems, and that's not a good thing. Yes, trade relations are important. Yes, a global view is important. Yes, jobs overseas are important. But nothing is completely stable and nothing lasts forever, so when it comes down to it, you need to be able to stand on your own.

But anyway, there's a lot of reading out there on both sides and most of it is far more eloquent than I am. I just believe that losing the ability to manufacture is damaging our sustainable wealth.

 

[Patan-DH]

I can tell you EXACTLY why actually.

1) backplates:

The boxguide uses a stamped steel and stamped 6061 backplate, both which are stamped in mainland China.

The LG1 uses a CNC machined backplate made from a custom mill run alloy available from a manufacturer here in the USA. The custom alloy is a bit stronger than 6061 but not as strong as 7075. It gives the e.thirteen backplate a superior strength to weight ratio. Based on what we have had quoted in the past, the LG1 backplate costs 7X to 9X more than the boxguide backplate to manufacture.

2) Slider material and manufacturing:

The Boxguide uses an unreinforced nylon top guide. It is injection molded in Asia, most likely China.

The LG1 uses a composite slider material with much greater stiffness and abrasion resistance. This material is significantly more expensive to start. The LG1 sliders are injection molded in Massachusetts, USA, right down the street from the e.thirteen headquarters.

3) bolts and mounting:

The boxguide uses mild steel bolts with a zinc coating, and includes no ISCG adapter etc...

The LG1 includes an ISCG05 adapter plate, stailess steel bolts that will never corrode, and an expensive but very functional lower idler that is quiet and long lasting.

4) Packaging and shipping:

The Boxguide is assembled in Taiwan, and shipped from Taiwan.

The LG1 is assembled in Massachusetts, and Shipped from Massachusetts, USA.


5) Economy of scale and overhead:

The Boxguide is an ancillary product in the SRAM line. It is sold at dirt cheap prices on the OEM market, and this drives units up, reducing cost to manufacture. It is offered as an augment to the Truvativ crank line. SRAM does not need to sell boxguides at a markup to keep in business. This is not the goal of that product. The goal is to support their Truvativ crank line sales at the OEM level. Any additional sales on the aftermarket are icing.

The LG1 is a standalone product from a company that specializes in that area. The e.thirteen line does not support any other line, it IS the line.


I hope that this has been educational for you.

Dave

this has been educational for me hehe

later...

 

[ultraNoob]

So just because your product is of higher quality, you think you can charge more??

YES! You can't buy a Hyundai Accent and expect it to be as reliable as a Toyota Corolla under the same driving and maintenance conditions.

Go e-thirteen or go chainless!

 

[CKxx]

Yeah, I agree, its something that we are proud of for sure, we need to talk about it more. e.thirteen is pretty much the only chain guide company building products in the USA.

You should definitely mention it somewhere. I, personally, don't mind spending more if I know something is made here so as to support a U.S. based company.

I already own an Lg1, an SRS, and 3 bashguards...but I'm thinking I could use a few more.

 

[SPINTECK]

SOme would rather support foreign markets because it's better to ruin their rivers, overwork their citizens and support censorship.

Really, how dare a bunch of New England bike lovers really challenge a big company....and to make a better product is insulting.With all the engineering support and money saved by SRAM, they can't make a product to crush e13?? That's like New Balance making some sneakers in America and competing with Nike (which they do).

 

[sittingduck]

The "made in the USA" label matters less to me than the fact that the parts are of much higher quality.
And Gemini2K? you sound sincere, but your knowledge is severely lacking. You sound like someone that watches Fox News and thinks it's actually news. Read up a bit and think about it....
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0227-20.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0412-13.htm

 

[gemini2k]

The "made in the USA" label matters less to me than the fact that the parts are of much higher quality.
And Gemini2K? you sound sincere, but your knowledge is severely lacking. You sound like someone that watches Fox News and thinks it's actually news. Read up a bit and think about it....
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0227-20.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0412-13.htm

well this is my last post in this thread. But to set things straight F Fox news. I'm no consevative moronic neo-republican (libertarian holla!). I watch fox news as a comedy channel. Any intelligent person should realize that biased commentary is not news reporting, come on, gimme some credit here!! Haven't I cited enough enough facts with enough logically consistant arguments yet? I'm aware of those facts about the ports as well. But that is more a problem of America being consumer whores, not offshoring mfg. What you're talking about is a result of our current accounts defecit, borrowing money from abroad to buy goods with money we don't have. What we are actually producing is of little importance, only the dollar value of thay production. The problem of selling off assets could be solved if we saved more and consumed less. Where the factories are is unimportant as long as we (Americans) own the factories.

So if I'm wrong on something SPEAK UP! You guys need to cite facts and show the logical conclusions you are drawing from these facts, not just tell me i'm wrong!!

 

[gemini2k]

The end result, though, is that is shortsighted thinking. Manufacturing is not as simple as turning screws. In the long term, real, stable wealth comes from more than just trading money around. It comes from owning the production plants that are taking raw materials and adding value to them - after all, that's what manufacturing is. It's taking something that's worth very little on its own and imbuing it with innate value. It comes from having the knowledge of how to manufacture and owning the intellectual property. America doesn't even have the capacity to produce most of what runs our most advanced systems, and that's not a good thing.

Stable wealth comes from controlling the factors of production for goods that will be desired highly in the future. Having a big factory to make light bulbs isn't gonna do you any good when a small factory making LED lights in 5 years is gonna be much more profitable. Times change, just cause factories were important in the past, doesn't make them (as) important in the future. You might say industrial production is the engire of wealth now, just like Thomas Jefferson thought that an agrarian society was the path to a wealthy country. Just like the 16th century mercantilists thought that a favorable balance of trade and increasing stocks of gold was the source of wealth. Just think about it a little more, you're almost there.