[jonKranked]

a word about clipless and dh...

i have been told that when switching from flats to clipless it can be useful to add a click of rebound. i have no personal experience to confirm this

 

[Leppah]

Ride flats so you can do some more 180's. :0)

I actually ride a lot of xc and i've ridden both flat and clips. You can definitely ride a lot longer rides on clips, and your feet don't get tired from trying to keep on your pedals. Techy stuff is easier to go up with clips too. I kept doing kung fu kicks when i was trying to go up techy rocks on flat pedals. Your legs will get strong from trying to keep constant pressure on the pedals so your feet don't move much, but riding xc on clips is the way to go.

 

[William42]

I like clips a lot for tech stuff on my trance x. Congrats on the bike, it'll be fun. I like mine.

For grinding up hills, I don't really notice a big difference between clips and flats. I find that I don't really pull up on the pedals when I'm grinding up a long climb.

The big place I notice clips is on the descents and tech climbs. Descents because its a trailbike with less travel then a DH bike and you get pinged around a lot, and having clips lets me be more loose on the bike and let the bike move around under me more comfortably. With tech climbs, I find that frequently I'm in a low enough gear that if I really mash the power down my back wheel spins freely and I have no traction, and I need to keep my power output more even. It also lets me put out a bigger power burst when I have half a pedal stroke for a short run in for a steep or rocky up.

 

[demo 9]

So i went out today at sprain mountain in NY (maybe you have ridden there) It was GREAT! I rode plastic BMX pedals (based upon my knowledge i would smash them into the ground, and they have some slide to them) It went well, i do think that clips will be the way to go, but for now, i have to spend some more time on flats because its hard enough for me to ride it, every time i got behind the seat, i hit my stomach with it and had to stop.

I nearly tip or flip each time i do uphill turns with rocks, and im not so good at keeping traction on the rear tire for rock face climbs.

Next on the list, some high engagement hub, probably i9, the ****mano XT is no dice, rides like a damn freecoaster

 

[JCL]

every time i got behind the seat, i hit my stomach with it and had to stop.

You mean you haven't got an adjustable post?

 

[demo 9]

You mean you haven't got an adjustable post?

not a fancy gravity dropper 1, i can manually do it, and i more or less kept dropping it an inch every 10-20 mins, but each time i did the angry XC guys yelled at me, they want it higher

 

[freeridefool]

One advantage to running clips on the xc bike or even a road bike is you learn to spin circles and become alot more efficient pedaling. That may not seem like a big deal to you as you say you dont pedal much... But in those times when you do have to pedal you transfer much more power to the actual rear wheel rather than into the bike when your spinning circles. When I learned to really spin circles I started cutting seconds off my dh runs cause I could pedal more often, where before I was just pedaling the bike into the ground.

 

[EVIL JN]

Has anybody in this thread read on bikejames about this whole myth about clips vs flats and how much a difference it really makes for normal riders? I can definetly say that its worth a look, it made me switch from clips to flats for xc/am riding at once. I dont feel any slower than before and my knees are already thanking me.

Spinning in circles is not something you should learn since it will just make you less efficient, maybe for dh it can be good as you keep the bike higher in its travel but i think its better to use the biggest and dominant muscles for when i sprint in dh.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Has anybody in this thread read on bikejames about this whole myth about clips vs flats and how much a difference it really makes for normal riders? I can definetly say that its worth a look, it made me switch from clips to flats for xc/am riding at once. I dont feel any slower than before and my knees are already thanking me.

Spinning in circles is not something you should learn since it will just make you less efficient, maybe for dh it can be good as you keep the bike higher in its travel but i think its better to use the biggest and dominant muscles for when i sprint in dh.

Wowee! no way - spinning circles is good technique flat or clip; no 'myth' silly anti established bunk.

Preference is significant, time has proven increased efficiency, dont be a mook. You prefer flats? ok, dont rationalize.

 

[freeridefool]

Has anybody in this thread read on bikejames about this whole myth about clips vs flats and how much a difference it really makes for normal riders? I can definetly say that its worth a look, it made me switch from clips to flats for xc/am riding at once. I dont feel any slower than before and my knees are already thanking me.

Spinning in circles is not something you should learn since it will just make you less efficient, maybe for dh it can be good as you keep the bike higher in its travel but i think its better to use the biggest and dominant muscles for when i sprint in dh.

I see what you saying. But I disagree. I ride flats for most dh, including races. I love my crampons. How I feel in the bike when I pedal. But for some dh I ride my clips. There are some stupid dh races that have 60 yard uphill finishes where spinning circles pays off.

 

[ldw222]

hey demo...where i live there is pretty much nowhere to ride a dh bike, for a quick ride after work anyways, so besides racing i ride almost exclusively xc. i ride flats on my dh bike and do the same thing on my xc. and i use the same exact pedals and wear my fivetens too. i think it helps...the bikes feel more alike when i go back and forth...

 

[Sandwich]

Has anybody in this thread read on bikejames about this whole myth about clips vs flats and how much a difference it really makes for normal riders? I can definetly say that its worth a look, it made me switch from clips to flats for xc/am riding at once. I dont feel any slower than before and my knees are already thanking me.

Spinning in circles is not something you should learn since it will just make you less efficient, maybe for dh it can be good as you keep the bike higher in its travel but i think its better to use the biggest and dominant muscles for when i sprint in dh.

go a page back. His article is debatable at best, and when you view it through the lens that he's a giant troll and a salesman (everything sucks but what I sell, buy it NAO) it makes a lot less sense. I won't deny that he has good points, but I think for everything he says, take it with a grain of salt.

I never had any problems with my knees, except for maybe when I was using early spuds. Time pedals are excellent. I think it comes down to personal preference and not holier than thou attacks, but clips have their place and I don't think I would pedal nearly as well without them.

 

[EVIL JN]

go a page back. His article is debatable at best, and when you view it through the lens that he's a giant troll and a salesman (everything sucks but what I sell, buy it NAO) it makes a lot less sense. I won't deny that he has good points, but I think for everything he says, take it with a grain of salt.

I never had any problems with my knees, except for maybe when I was using early spuds. Time pedals are excellent. I think it comes down to personal preference and not holier than thou attacks, but clips have their place and I don't think I would pedal nearly as well without them.

Yes of course i dont belive everything he says but when things get backed up by others that has done some research on the subject you have to consider it. And when i started to feel the effects i was surprised as i was pretty sceptical about it my self. I dont feel any slower now on flats for road riding than before when i was on clips.

I see what you saying. But I disagree. I ride flats for most dh, including races. I love my crampons. How I feel in the bike when I pedal. But for some dh I ride my clips. There are some stupid dh races that have 60 yard uphill finishes where spinning circles pays off.
__________________

Personally i have taken of the clips from my dh bike for the last year maybe for a total of 20 runs and i use them on my dirt bike for jumping and my pumptrack. So its not like i have anything against clips, in fact by now i couldnt go back to flats for dh. I even ride clips on my skate rink for a track now in the winter, sketchy as hell but seriuosly fun.

QUOTE]Wowee! no way - spinning circles is good technique flat or clip; no 'myth' silly anti established bunk.

Preference is significant, time has proven increased efficiency, dont be a mook. You prefer flats? ok, dont rationalize. [/QUOTE]

But when it comes to xc/trail riding as a mean of training for dh racing when you ride dh on flats i dont think clips would be the best idea to maximize the effect of training. At first when i put on clips i tended to use my hamstrings and hip flexors to pedal in circles while decreasing my input from my quads and glutes where as in dh allmost all pedaling power is going to come from the quads and glutes.

Regarding pedaling in circles if you think about it should you be able to applie the same ammount of force with your hamstrings as your quads. If you can you are imbalanced in terms of muscle strength. So the downstroke should always be stronger than the uppstroke or you are over working on muscle group or under working another. Sure on really long rides clips are definetly the way to go so one can recruit as many muscles as possible to keep the pedals turning but for shorther traing rides, sprints, i'd say stay on flats especially if youre going to race on flats.

For me i usually never engage in these kind of subjects since it really dosent matter what others say. What works and make me a happier and better rider wont be the same for the next rider so the only thing for one to do is experiment and be open to new ideas and ride as much as possible.

 

[jonKranked]

not a fancy gravity dropper 1, i can manually do it, and i more or less kept dropping it an inch every 10-20 mins, but each time i did the angry XC guys yelled at me, they want it higher

that's because you're a young kid, and they want stuff up your ass

 

[Jim Mac]

that's because you're a young kid, and they want stuff up your ass

Riding XC with Catholic Priests?

EDIT: total derail, but couldn't resist!

 

[Sandwich]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807?dopt=Citation

Don't have access to the full article. Abstract suggest that you can get significantly more power from clips with "pulling up" but lose some mechanical efficiency. That's to be expected with expending more energy and combating gravity, but if you need MOAR POWAR on a steep climb or sprint, boom goes the dynamite.

Interesting read. Pegboy I found the reference in your article, which I'm still making my way through. It looks like the segment you quoted has more to do with combating gravity than clips, but I'm still reading.

 

[EVIL JN]

Sandwich: What i have found during my time riding is that when powering in or from slow speeds, think out of a slow tight corner, a gate start or up a hill clips gives an increadible more amount of power. Since i can really engage my hamstrings and hip flexors combined with really pushing down the pedals while pusing and pulling on the handlebar. Then when the speed increase i start to feel the effect decrease and i predominantly use my quads and glutes.

For me this ammounts to that for accelerating clips give a huge advantage but for just keeping up a high speed through a flat section the effect decreases as the speed increase. Which i think comes from that it gets harder to time all the muscle actions to work together.

 

[OGRipper]

I nearly tip or flip each time i do uphill turns with rocks, and im not so good at keeping traction on the rear tire for rock face climbs.

Next on the list, some high engagement hub, probably i9, the ****mano XT is no dice, rides like a damn freecoaster

Dude, you nearly "tip or flip" when climbing and you think your problem is your hub?

Technical climbing is a combination of bike setup, technique, and strength. But it's not your hub engagement.

 

[demo 9]

Dude, you nearly "tip or flip" when climbing and you think your problem is your hub?

Technical climbing is a combination of bike setup, technique, and strength. But it's not your hub engagement.

I know its more of skill, and ive gotten better, but ill be doing a climb, have to take a quick pause (to avoid nailing a rock with pedals-and im now on the clips, so its twice as dangerous) and when i get back on the power, it feels like there is 30 degrees of unwound free-coaster in there. It "slams" into engagement, and i nearly eat ****.

May not help that i havent ridden any hub that isnt an i9 in a few years

 

[Sandwich]

technical climbing is so much fun once you get the hang of it. I think the key is smooth pedal strokes and body positioning. MBA (yeah, those guys) did an article on what they called "the cosmic crunch" which is basically strategically positioning your weight over the nose of the saddle, but not actually sitting. It allows you to move forward or backward with terrain changes while maintaining maximum weight balance (key to not rolling over backwards or spinning out).

I don't really know if there's a massive advantage to clipless on technical climbs. If you pull up, you're reducing weight on the rear wheel, which is dangerous for spinning out. In fact, if you pedal like a goon, you can increase traction on the downstroke by putting more weight into the suspension as you pedal.

It's all about finding that spot, though, and staying there comfortably until the top.

 

[FlipFantasia]

fact of the matter is that climbing, and moreso, technical climbing, takes time and effort to get the skill....gear will not help you, practice will....one simple tip I gave my girlfriend this weekend while we were riding some xc with lots of techy switchbacks was getting your weight on the nose of the saddle and bending at the waist and getting your weight lower, she noticed a pretty quick improvement in getting through the corners as she always felt like she was pulling up on the bars to get enough power down onto the pedals...anyway, that's just one little thing that helped her a lot, then it's adding stuff like sandwhich is talking about above, subtle weight shifts make a huge difference in climbing in my experience.

 

[OGRipper]

it feels like there is 30 degrees of unwound free-coaster in there. It "slams" into engagement, and i nearly eat ****.

Is this your first experience with small climbing gears? Little gears can make the same amount of engagement lag feel much bigger, you just have to get used to it.

I think clipless is an advantage for pretty much any pedaling situation. On a loose technical climb you want to get the power to the wheel without a lot of monkey motion. Smooth and strong circular pedaling is the way to go in my experience. I don't see how pulling up on the cranks changes anything. You are also pushing down on the other crank and your overall weight doesn't change.

 

[demo 9]

It is my first expierience with small gears, however, the clips havent been going so bad, im good to clip out, just suck at clipping in. (butter than the reverse)

 

[slowitdown]

I know its more of skill, and ive gotten better, but ill be doing a climb, have to take a quick pause (to avoid nailing a rock with pedals-and im now on the clips, so its twice as dangerous) and when i get back on the power, it feels like there is 30 degrees of unwound free-coaster in there. It "slams" into engagement, and i nearly eat ****.

May not help that i havent ridden any hub that isnt an i9 in a few years

Could it be your hub, derailleur jockey wheel(s) or chain tensioner wheel is freezing and holding things up? I had a Blackspire Dewlie chainguide back in 04 that used to hang up when I'd ratchet the pedals for rocks etc, and it would do something like what you described.

Anyway, IMO it's not the hub's relative engagement speed. I've used all sorts of hubs including cheap singlespeed freewheels with a slow engagement, and the slowest cheapest freewheel never felt anything like what you described. That I9 "quick engagement" is a placebo IMO, I've ridden a bike with an I9 hub and it wasn't that big an engagement difference, nothing like what you're describing.

Climbing takes a lot of practice. Climbing technical stuff is tougher than descending technical stuff IMO.

 

[slyfink]

From reading a few articles on the subject I was pretty certain that you don't "pull up" with your clipless pedals on the upstroke. I ride clipless for xc mostly out of habit, and for the fact that the shoes are generally much better for laying down the power and are lighter. Another benefit of clipless is that they make it easier to stay on the pedals in the chunder, and easier to pick up the bike and move it around as required to change lines. When I started DH I used clipless. Last year I switched to flats and 5.10s. I noticed right away that my pumping and jumping technique had gotten lazy from my use of clipless. When popping off of lips to clear gaps I had to carry a little more speed, and focus on pre-loading the bike to get that extra pop off the lip. Same thing in berms and in the chunder: I needed to pay attention to the terrain and pump better in the troughs, to ensure that my feet didn't blow off the pedals. I think it is in that sense that riding flats teaches you to ride your bike better.

however, last night as I was riding my bike to work (single-speed fixie [it's a handy commuter, not a fashion statement ]), I have a short but steep hill to go up, so it's a stand and grind kind of effort. I have old retired Times on there (the springs are a little worn and bent), and during slow hard pedalling I kept pulling up and out of the pedals. And here I thought that you don't ever pull up on the pedals?!

So, what's the point of this post... hmmm. I think it's that under certain circumstances, i.e. under high torque, slow pedalling, it is true that clipless helps. also when going fast in the chunder, you don't have to worry about blowing feet off pedals, it's easier to plow over stuff. But. Riding flats encourages you to be a better bike handler and read the terrain better. Riding both probably will make you a better rider overall. Especially if you can carry over the bike handling skills learned with flats over to the times you ride clips.

 

[slowitdown]

on that bikejames article:

1) He's an idiot. His "scientific study" did not prove anything.

2) It is mechanically impossible for a platform pedal to be as efficient as a clipped-in pedal. Yes, I know about 5.10s and their stickiness. That stickiness requires some lateral component to remain a solid connection - you always have to pull back a bit, or push forward a bit, with your foot to keep it engaged. This takes energy. The clipped in pedal automatically locates your foot and keeps it secure.

3) I countered James with the idea that roadies have been refining efficiency for over a hundred years and they find one can't be competitive unless one uses clipped-in pedals. James's response: we're talking about mtb not road... a dodge, a deflection, a disregarding of evidence. It's still pedaling, James, no matter what your tire type, frame type, handlebar type, and no matter whether you're on pavement, cobblestones, or natural trail.

***************

I realize that the InterWebToobz provide a firm foundation for Posing As A Hard-Azz Toughguy Rider Who Uses The Hardazz Toughguy Gear. Therefore I realize that people like James are out there, acting like the pose is the same as the reality.

What platform pedals provide is a sense of comfort:

- I can pull my foot off wherever, however I feel... to pretend I'm on a moto in a corner, to dab when I screw up my lines, to bail when I'm gonna crash.

- I can put my foot in a variety of positions on the pedal, rather than the single position of cleated-in.

- I can do a heel-clicker, can-can, nac-nac, eat a bowl of cereal with my feet like Daniel Day-Lewis in My Left Foot.

Yes, I can do all those things. But I won't be as mechanically efficient as the clipped-in pedaler. If I choose to give up that efficiency for Core Toughguy Image or for real differences in performance, I should do so knowing that I am giving up the efficiency.

YES, I rode platforms exclusively for 3 seasons. I know what they're about.

*********

demo9,

keep trying those clipless pedals. If you find you are just too sketched out, then go back to the platforms. What matters is how you feel -- but you have to use the clipless long enough to see their advantages before you give them up... if you care about pedaling speed/efficiency!