[BikeSATORI]

Anyone out there like their high rollin' 26er, but want some of the quickness of the duece-quad?

Check into this new 25" standard...
haha, inspired by none other than, Suzuki! ...kind of interesting, but not the point here. ...apparantly Schwalbe as well, as they are already making tires for the new rims size standard!

but man, their things look legit to me, even though their name could use some help, no doubt about that. So click the link:

URBAN CROSS CYCLE

I know, it's hard to read, I feel like an idiot too, but click on "UXC Standards" tab, then go to "Antrieb".
Looks like a killer little rigid ride there to me! Solid. I'd like to rip one for sure.
Gallery has some cool stuff too.
And haha, "Schloss" looks super teched out trick, all innovative and stuff... but, can anyone tell me what it is exactly? Does it say "cow", or "moo" when I pull the cable sticking out?



so I put up the bait, let's hear the hate. I can dig it, what do you all think?

 

[ebrider510]

Anyone out there like their high rollin' 26er, but want some of the quickness of the duece-quad?

Check into this new 25" standard...
haha, inspired by none other than, Suzuki! ...kind of interesting, but not the point here. ...apparantly Schwalbe as well, as they are already making tires for the new rims size standard!

but man, their things look legit to me, even though their name could use some help, no doubt about that. So click the link:

URBAN CROSS CYCLE



i think iyt

I know, it's hard to read, I feel like an idiot too, but click on "UXC Standards" tab, then go to "Antrieb".
Looks like a killer little rigid ride there to me! Solid. I'd like to rip one for sure.
Gallery has some cool stuff too.
And haha, "Schloss" looks super teched out trick, all innovative and stuff... but, can anyone tell me what it is exactly? Does it say "cow", or "moo" when I pull the cable sticking out?



so I put up the bait, let's hear the hate. I can dig it, what do you all think?

pictures of the bike have actually been posted before here or somewhere else. even a video of some guy riding it (although it was kind of obvious that he really didn't know what he was doing entirely since his "street riding in SF" segment was him flying down hills and stairs)

i think it's a very interesting concept. very odd that suzuki decided to think of it on their own. not sure what they are trying to achieve from it but i don't have anything against the idea. not sure if we really need 25" wheels right now. although, it would actually be pretty sick since you could run 25/24" or 26/25" wheel combinations. i think that could be money. we will have to see if anyone else decides to jump on board.

 

[BikeSATORI]

pictures of the bike have actually been posted before here or somewhere else. even a video of some guy riding it (although it was kind of obvious that he really didn't know what he was doing entirely since his "street riding in SF" segment was him flying down hills and stairs)

i think it's a very interesting concept. very odd that suzuki decided to think of it on their own. not sure what they are trying to achieve from it but i don't have anything against the idea. not sure if we really need 25" wheels right now. although, it would actually be pretty sick since you could run 25/24" or 26/25" wheel combinations. i think that could be money. we will have to see if anyone else decides to jump on board.

oh my bad, didn't realize it's been here before, seems I do that a lot when I miss stuff.

yeah, I can agree, personally, I'm all set with my 24" for street/dj (and 20" if I feel for a change), and 26" for just about everything else... but just interesting to see some others try something different.

Seems a little bit of progression could be made with a 25" (over 26) for chainstay lengths and lower forks, etc. And like you kind of mentioned, alter geo. angles with different combinations.


I saw this on a discussion about 29" DH bikes actually, it was posted up by buckoW...
so stuff is going all over the place, haha, where are the 22's to bridge the gap to bmx?

 

[Leethal]

If someone makes a 22, people will want a 21....

 

[r464]

Just what we need, more tire sizes...

http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

 

[buckoW]

The "Schloss" option is a bike lock integrated into the frame and the licht option is lights integrated into the bar. I still don't understand the Suzuki branded gearbox looking bb (antrieb). Maybe they were sick of small bb bearings too?
The guys who run the company and design the bikes are oldschool bmx racers so that might explain the street skills.

 

[BikeSATORI]

If someone makes a 22, people will want a 21....

I agree.
21 offers all of the advantages 22 can't give you.



please, no more sheldon links, I'm getting tired of that guy.


and thanks for that explanation buckoW.

 

[Bulldog]

WTF for?! Come on - 24/25/26/27.5/29 - give me a break. And why the heck is the seat tube bent?! Because seat adjustability is a bad thing? I hope this garbage flops, fast.

 

[bent^biker]

that light-bar would be sic for night urban riding, i want take down lights and a siren too though....manimal?

 

[BikeSATORI]

WTF for?! Come on - 24/25/26/27.5/29 - give me a break. And why the heck is the seat tube bent?! Because seat adjustability is a bad thing? I hope this garbage flops, fast.

Gotta be different!

I doubt this will ever reach north america (due to limited market and... mindset?), as it was only shown at eurobike apparantly. Possibly the same reasons a LOT of the 24" parts never make it accross the Atlantic... too much hate for the duece-quad wheel still exists deep in the yankee. But, that's slowly changing, for the better!

 

[cmc]

Innovation rules. F the status quo and tradition.

 

[dexter]

the hate for 24 in the US is horrible, hell its bad in canada. i was with watts, lacondeguy, nate, cam, etc etc in whistler this summer waiting to get picked up by some girls outside of a bar when peir (think thats his name, French Canadian kid who rides a brake less usb with red parts and a coaster ) and half of the crew just started tearing him apart about riding twenty fours and how gay it was. Pretty lame, had to put a few of them in their place about people who ride 24's and how they are far superior to 24's in some aspects. i could not believe it, watts was ready to punch this kid over his wheel size.

 

[FrontRangeDH]

Pretty lame, had to put a few of them in their place about people who ride 24's and how they are far superior to 26's in some aspects. i could not believe it, watts was ready to punch this kid over his wheel size.

Fixed

Seriously, people get way too wound up about other peoples bikes

 

[cmc]

when i started riding, both bmx and skateboarding were about FREEDOM, defying mainstream sports, and blazing new paths. every year there were new shapes, new designs, new products. this is why i ride.

visionaries are always met with ridicule by small minded people.

 

[BikeSATORI]

the hate for 24 in the US is horrible, hell its bad in canada. i was with watts, lacondeguy, nate, cam, etc etc in whistler this summer waiting to get picked up by some girls outside of a bar when peir (think thats his name, French Canadian kid who rides a brake less usb with red parts and a coaster ) and half of the crew just started tearing him apart about riding twenty fours and how gay it was. Pretty lame, had to put a few of them in their place about people who ride 24's and how they are far superior to 24's in some aspects. i could not believe it, watts was ready to punch this kid over his wheel size.

I remember, hmm, early 90's, maybe '93, at some big trails in metro-detroit, I was hanging out with some bmx'ers from the area (who were kind of like local legends at the time), also riding a bmx myself then, but also having dabbled in the xc mtb. But anyway, suddenly two mountain bikers came up through the hidden area, and, well, apparantly narrow-mindedness grew deep in both sides and festered with their teenage angst, haha... spark hitting the fuel on the fire.
mtb vs. bmx. All the bmx kids jumped the mtb'ers and beat them down royally, out of no-where.... all because of wheel size. I just watched, couldn't believe it, and you can bet I never mentioned I also had an mtb to any of them, haha!

but yeah, that stuff goes on over bbq chicken and women everyday, nothing new.
What is stupid is what you say about these guys who are supposedly representing and pushing our sport being all narrow minded hating on others who are trying essentially the same thing, just with differences in equipment. That's ridiculous.



but all that aside, most all of the bikers I've met or ridden with in the past few years have all been some great experiences, just havin' good times. Don't want to sound like some oppressed biker who has to live through a world of hate or something, haha...

 

[cmc]

hell, FBM makes a fixie frame. who would have seen that coming in 1999 ?

 

[cmc]

two points on the 25" concept.

everyone has been trying to squeeze their 26" rear wheel as short as possible. even the Superco frame moving the seattube forward to get a shorter back end. ----> the 25" wheel bike is going the direction everyone is already going.

then, you turn to 24" bikes, and you find that some riders have been building their USB Molly's and Tonic Fall Guys with 3" rise bars or maybe some stack spacers. that's a compensation or work-around for the fact that a 24" wheel mountain bike is kinda small (esp. if you want it low profile looking). ----> the 25" wheel bike bumps your front end up an inch, and you can stay with a low profile look in the front.

so you get improvements in both the front and back of the bike.

... but the URBAN CROSS looks like it has chainstays that aren't any shorter than progressive 26"s.

 

[Evil4bc]

It looks like a cool concept , one of the guys on the design team Stephan Prantal was one of the guys who started WTP so their might be some potential here.

The gearbox / shifter system also looks cool there a little knob under the back of the seatpost that looks to be a indexed dial ajsuter that somehow tightenes the cable in the internal hub inside the BB shell , VERY cool!!!

The lights on the handle bar are another cool idea , I'd like to see these as a after market item that you could buy for your night townie / bar bike !!!

 

[ebrider510]

oh my bad, didn't realize it's been here before, seems I do that a lot when I miss stuff.

yeah, I can agree, personally, I'm all set with my 24" for street/dj (and 20" if I feel for a change), and 26" for just about everything else... but just interesting to see some others try something different.

Seems a little bit of progression could be made with a 25" (over 26) for chainstay lengths and lower forks, etc. And like you kind of mentioned, alter geo. angles with different combinations.


I saw this on a discussion about 29" DH bikes actually, it was posted up by buckoW...
so stuff is going all over the place, haha, where are the 22's to bridge the gap to bmx?

hey no problem, its easy to miss stuff that you wouldn't expect to see posted before. i know i have done it myself

and ya, i guess the reason i would like the wheel size combos is mainly because you could run a 25" rear wheel on a normally 26" designed frame just so you could slam the rear end without altering the geo as much as running a rear 24. also, running the 25" wheel with the 24" in back could be cool for trails especially.

i really love 24's though. anyone who trash talks them doesn't know what's up. only reason i don't run them now on my TP is because back when i was ordering my wheel from eastern, they were only selling the 26" version. kind of a bummer, but once my wheel is really messed up or my rim's dented or something, i plan on re lacing the hub to a 24.

 

[ebrider510]

the hate for 24 in the US is horrible, hell its bad in canada. i was with watts, lacondeguy, nate, cam, etc etc in whistler this summer waiting to get picked up by some girls outside of a bar when peir (think thats his name, French Canadian kid who rides a brake less usb with red parts and a coaster ) and half of the crew just started tearing him apart about riding twenty fours and how gay it was. Pretty lame, had to put a few of them in their place about people who ride 24's and how they are far superior to 24's in some aspects. i could not believe it, watts was ready to punch this kid over his wheel size.

this is about the most pathetic thing i have or will ever hear if it's true. not saying i don't trust your word, just saying the fact that those guys would seriously do that is incredible. what is hilarious is that lacondeguy was riding 24's on his cowan for a while at comps and everything. really makes me proud to be rollin on 26's..

what's funny is non of these guys are ever seen riding street, but hey they are probably right and have every right to tell some kid how to do it. a strong simple bike makes NO sense! you don't only need 26's. you also need some gears, suspension, hydros, long chainstays, aluminum frames, and make sure you run no more then 35psi in your tires at all times. (maybe that's goin a little too far..)

 

[don]

....

then, you turn to 24" bikes, and you find that some riders have been building their USB Molly's and Tonic Fall Guys with 3" rise bars or maybe some stack spacers. that's a compensation or work-around for the fact that a 24" wheel mountain bike is kinda small (esp. if you want it low profile looking). ----> the 25" wheel bike bumps your front end up an inch, and you can stay with a low profile look in the front.

I think that some of the guys that are using 3" bars and/or some spacers are looking to get clearance for t-downs as one of the reasons. And I wouldn't say a 3" bar is a compensation - just the proper size bar for a 24" bike. 20" BMX bikes typically use a 6-8" bar, 24" cruisers; 4-6".

 

[dexter]

this is about the most pathetic thing i have or will ever hear if it's true. not saying i don't trust your word, just saying the fact that those guys would seriously do that is incredible. what is hilarious is that lacondeguy was riding 24's on his cowan for a while at comps and everything. really makes me proud to be rollin on 26's..

what's funny is non of these guys are ever seen riding street, but hey they are probably right and have every right to tell some kid how to do it. a strong simple bike makes NO sense! you don't only need 26's. you also need some gears, suspension, hydros, long chainstays, aluminum frames, and make sure you run no more then 35psi in your tires at all times. (maybe that's goin a little too far..)

swear to god, i could not believe it. for me personally, 24's rock in the street and in the park. fit into transitions so much better, accelerate quicker, are lighter and more flickable, and spin easier. 26 rocks for dj's, slopestyle, pretty much anything with dirt i feel the bigger wheels are and adavantage.

 

[Changleen]

I really quite like the look of that Urban Cross Cycle.

 

[Bulldog]

two points on the 25" concept.

everyone has been trying to squeeze their 26" rear wheel as short as possible. even the Superco frame moving the seattube forward to get a shorter back end. ----> the 25" wheel bike is going the direction everyone is already going.

then, you turn to 24" bikes, and you find that some riders have been building their USB Molly's and Tonic Fall Guys with 3" rise bars or maybe some stack spacers. that's a compensation or work-around for the fact that a 24" wheel mountain bike is kinda small (esp. if you want it low profile looking). ----> the 25" wheel bike bumps your front end up an inch, and you can stay with a low profile look in the front.

so you get improvements in both the front and back of the bike.

"Improvements", LOL.

SuperCo has a "work-around" for the 26" wheel alright - it's their 24" bike!

And you favor the creation of a new wheel standard because some guys use handlebars that look 1" too tall to you?! You must throw up in your mouth a little everytime you watch a 20" bmx bike roll by huh?!

I'm teasing you in fun, but this standard is plain retarded and offers no benefit that can't easily be matched with current product offerings. Innovation is great - but only when it offers a tangible advantage. For every great new idea there are hundreds and thousands of poor ones - and unfortunately every once in awhile one of the poor ones actually makes it all the way to production.

 

[cmc]

"Improvements", LOL.

SuperCo has a "work-around" for the 26" wheel alright - it's their 24" bike!

And you favor the creation of a new wheel standard because some guys use handlebars that look 1" too tall to you?! You must throw up in your mouth a little everytime you watch a 20" bmx bike roll by huh?!

I'm teasing you in fun, but this standard is plain retarded and offers no benefit that can't easily be matched with current product offerings. Innovation is great - but only when it offers a tangible advantage. For every great new idea there are hundreds and thousands of poor ones - and unfortunately every once in awhile one of the poor ones actually makes it all the way to production.

i know 25" wheels aren't practical. it's a pain for shops etc. to carry one more choice of tube, tire, wheel.
i am not saying the URBANCROSS is genius. my main point is i like the spirit of innovation.
i just think that IF 25" wheels were readily available, people would be into it. for the same reason that everyone is psyched when 26" DJ bikes are getting chainstays shorter and shorter. this goes in that direction.

 

[gackrider24]

I rode with a guy at a skatepark a year or two ago that had a street/trials bike that had 25 inch wheels on it. It had super sticky and wide trials tires on it and the frame was a custom built titanium frame with a pretty high bottom bracket, he said it wasn't good for djs because of the trials influence.(i think he said it was one of 12 ever made) I rode it a little bit and it was a pretty cool ride manualed like a dream. He pointed out that rims and tires still had 26 inches printed on them so that they could run them in trials competitions.

I doubt that 25 inch wheels will take off, because they have already been around for some time and havent yet, but they are interesting and make sense in theory. I personally would stick with 24 for street
and 26 for other purposes but who knows.

 

[buckoW]

Everyone rides different stuff in different ways and needs different gear to ride their different stuff. We can't pretend to know what works for everyone's different stuff, can we?

 

[Bulldog]

We can't pretend to know what works for everyone's different stuff, can we?

Yeah, in this case we can. Talking about 25" wheels when 24" and 26" already work quite well and are established (and 24" popularity is still gaining momentum), yeah, we can. Completely worthless concept. Cost vs performance vs demand differences so small they can easily be achieved with current product offerings in the other two sizes.

 

[jasride]

Man i thought it was just another street dirt jumper set up just with a different wheel size and then i clicked on the gallery and noticed the other photos with the handle bar heaadlights and RED knob adjuster under the seat and some of the other functions. that thing is ready for Michael Knight. "talk to me Kit".

That side profile photo does make it look good but damn, just another option to think about when you're not pulling the next trick you've been tryin for the past month and you don't want to blame it on anything else but the bike. son of a........

 

[DirtEveryDay]

Hey, that's wierd... I JUST put up a post today for NC-17 stuff afte seeing a stem on a Bottle Rocket on MTBRetarded and went googling and came back with that site. NEVER saw this one!

 

[cmc]

Yeah, in this case we can. Talking about 25" wheels when 24" and 26" already work quite well and are established (and 24" popularity is still gaining momentum), yeah, we can. Completely worthless concept. Cost vs performance vs demand differences so small they can easily be achieved with current product offerings in the other two sizes.

You are correct that there are cost, efficiency, etc. issues that make 25" impractical.

But, you are wrong that it's a "worthless concept." Performance wise, you will definitely feel a difference in a step down to 25".

Let me ask you again. Do you think there is a difference between riding a DJ 26" with 16.5" chainstays versus the same bike with a 15.5" cs? It's just one inch !! Same deal here.

As for the idea that there shouldn't be lots of small variations in product offerings, because the difference is not significant, why are there so many lengths to choose from on this bike:

Fit Bikes Hawk frame 19.75", 20", 20.25", 20.5", 20.75", 21", or 21.25" TT, 13.75" - 14.75" CS, 75 HA, 71 SA, 5 lbs, 11.8" bb height, 100% Sanko butted and heat treated tubing, integrated head tube and press fit Mid bb shell (headset and bb not included)

Why don't we go back to the 90's when there were often only 2 sizes of a bmx frame? S&M Dirt Bike or S&M Holmes. Standard Shorty or Standard Lengthy. Basic Small Town Hero or Basic Big City Bastard. etc.

I think what's really going on is you are trying to get disciplines/formats "established" and it just annoys you.

 

[Bulldog]

just another option to think about when you're not pulling the next trick you've been tryin for the past month and you don't want to blame it on anything else but the bike.

Ding! Winner.

 

[Bulldog]

You are correct that there are cost, efficiency, etc. issues that make 25" impractical.

But, you are wrong that it's a "worthless concept." Performance wise, you will definitely feel a difference in a step down to 25".

Let me ask you again. Do you think there is a difference between riding a DJ 26" with 16.5" chainstays versus the same bike with a 15.5" cs? It's just one inch !! Same deal here.

As for the idea that there shouldn't be lots of small variations in product offerings, because the difference is not significant, why are there so many lengths to choose from on this bike:

Fit Bikes Hawk frame 19.75", 20", 20.25", 20.5", 20.75", 21", or 21.25" TT, 13.75" - 14.75" CS, 75 HA, 71 SA, 5 lbs, 11.8" bb height, 100% Sanko butted and heat treated tubing, integrated head tube and press fit Mid bb shell (headset and bb not included)

Why don't we go back to the 90's when there were often only 2 sizes of a bmx frame? S&M Dirt Bike or S&M Holmes. Standard Shorty or Standard Lengthy. Basic Small Town Hero or Basic Big City Bastard. etc.

I think what's really going on is you are trying to get disciplines/formats "established" and it just annoys you.

You don't really get what I'm saying. And your frame example shows what for options?..only TT lengths which have no standard whatsoever and requires no change to any componentry.

I agree you'll see a perfomance difference going from 26" to 25" (stronger/lighter wheel, fits into trannies better, shorter stays, etc.) - but then you'll have to agree that any advantage that would cause you to choose 25" would be even greater by going to 24" right?

I worked in sales for a long, long time. And let me say, having too many options is almost always worse than having too few. There are already 3 wheel sizes for aggressive riding and 2-3 choices are optimal for giving the consumer the freedom of selection without being overwhelmed.

We can agree to disagree at this point because you'll never convince me there is a tangible benefit over current standards. That's the end of my story. Gosh, is it springtime yet so I can get off the computer and go ride my bike and be unhappy because I wish my axles were 1/2" higher, or lower, or.....

 

[sittingduck]

Don't forget that a wheel is a wheel, and most 26" specific frames will be able to accept a 25" wheel no problem. There might even be some interesting options taking a 24" specific frame and putting 25" wheels on it. If this works, you would probably have a nice short chainstay with larger wheels.

 

[cmc]

You don't really get what I'm saying. And your frame example shows what for options?..only TT lengths which have no standard whatsoever and requires no change to any componentry.

I agree you'll see a perfomance difference going from 26" to 25" (stronger/lighter wheel, fits into trannies better, shorter stays, etc.) - but then you'll have to agree that any advantage that would cause you to choose 25" would be even greater by going to 24" right?

I worked in sales for a long, long time. And let me say, having too many options is almost always worse than having too few. There are already 3 wheel sizes for aggressive riding and 2-3 choices are optimal for giving the consumer the freedom of selection without being overwhelmed.

We can agree to disagree at this point because you'll never convince me there is a tangible benefit over current standards. That's the end of my story. Gosh, is it springtime yet so I can get off the computer and go ride my bike and be unhappy because I wish my axles were 1/2" higher, or lower, or.....

i fully get what you're saying. you're objecting to it on grounds of Sales, etc. like i said above: it's a pain for shops etc. to carry one more choice of tube, tire, wheel.

my point is that almost every part of our bikes is available in different sizes. 80mm, 100mm, etc. travel forks. 40mm, 50mm, 70mm stems. bar rise. everything. but the second someone talks about a different wheel size, people flip their ****. a lot of people hated on 29ers. a lot of people still hate on 24's. it makes no sense. disregarding the question of industry convenience of standardization of tires, etc. (which i agree with you on), it makes NO sense, why the sizing you see in every other part of a bike can't also apply to wheels. keep on calling stuff "retarded" and "worthless." it'll get you places.

 

[Bulldog]

i fully get what you're saying. you're objecting to it on grounds of Sales, etc.

^^That quote is why you don't get it. You reduced several posts about my biggest complaint with this new standard - NO TANGIBLE PERFORMANCE GAIN - into simply "etc." - nice technique.

But hey if you want to drop the dough on a 25" wheeled unicycle be my guest it won't affect me one bit. These are forums for sharing opinions, BS and occasionally actual product information and I have a strong opinion on this topic and made it known. End of story.

 

[sittingduck]

You assume everything revolves around "tangible performance gain"?
That's not much of an argument, since TONS of stuff offers very little real performance gain. It's more about choice, and variety.

 

[Bulldog]

You assume everything revolves around "tangible performance gain"?
That's not much of an argument, since TONS of stuff offers very little real performance gain. It's more about choice, and variety.

I jumped into this thread originally to voice my opinion. Now I'm also entertained by cmc's approach to discussion. 25" wheels might carve out a niche, that's fine. They won't replace anything I use so it's no real bother to me. And I'm not against creativity - just the opposite in fact. I do think having too many choices spreads developers too thin and frustrates consumers. To make up an example - would you rather have two tire choices each for 20/24/25/26/27.5/29 or four each for 20/24/26? I'd rather see the time/energy/creative talent put into creating more "choice, and variety", as you say, within the stadards we have already - especially when they work well. Most often I'm a fan of refinement and evolution of current products over starting from scratch.

 

[cmc]

I jumped into this thread originally to voice my opinion. Now I'm also entertained by cmc's approach to discussion. 25" wheels might carve out a niche, that's fine. They won't replace anything I use so it's no real bother to me. And I'm not against creativity - just the opposite in fact. I do think having too many choices spreads developers too thin and frustrates consumers. To make up an example - would you rather have two tire choices each for 20/24/25/26/27.5/29 or four each for 20/24/26? I'd rather see the time/energy/creative talent put into creating more "choice, and variety", as you say, within the stadards we have already - especially when they work well. Most often I'm a fan of refinement and evolution of current products over starting from scratch.

man, i'm willing to call it done, and for the record i do respect your opinion. but this is starting to get fun. . . . . so . . . i gotta say, you skipped 22" bmx wheels !

there are 12" wheel bmx's for the 3-4 year olds. 16"s for kindergardners. 18"s for elementary school riders. then 20's for age 10 and up, and up and up until you're the old 40+ motherf*cker in the 24" cruiser class at the local bmx track.

they skipped the part about being 6'3" and 20/30something, wanting to ride a bmx, with all the tech benefits of a small bike, but not wanting to ride like a hunchback.

in any other sport, (even in other types of cycling) the equipment matches the person (skis, snowboards, golf clubs, hockey sticks, surfboards . . . ) but with bmx, that only applies to the kids' sizing. after that, you're just an adult on a kids bike. sure, you can get a 21.5"tt frame, run a toploader stem with 8.25" rise bars. but you've still got a damn small bike. 22" wheels would allow a proportionally bigger bmx bike that still has the same basic feel.

and now. . . i'm going riding. long lunch and an office where no one notices if you're taking one.

 

[Bulldog]

and now. . . i'm going riding. long lunch and an office where no one notices if you're taking one.

It's all perspective and preference. I'm glad we can express opinions without resorting to name calling.

And I'm super jealous about the lunch ride. We're getting about 10-14" of snow right now and I have to bum a ride from someone with a 4x4 to get home because they took the plows off the roads!