[HardtailHack]

Got a group email from Mark at Purgatory bikes today and he is now doing a
2x4 setup with a custom rear mech and a Hammershmidt up front.

http://www.purgatorybikes.com/kimosabe/kimosabe.html

 

[frango]

Looks realy cool, however, it's quite heavy for AM build.

 

[trib]

Want 2345

 

[daisycutter]

The bikes are steel they are going to be heavy regardless. Its the price that gets me 3750 with shock + hammerschmidt is expensive. Still though I love the idea and it being steel means it would be bomb proof.

 

[norbar]

The bike seems nice but that price for a cro-mo shedbike is a bit steep.

 

[jonKranked]

The bikes are steel they are going to be heavy regardless. Its the price that gets me 3750 with shock + hammerschmidt is still expensive. Still though I love the idea and it being steel means it would be bomb proof.

assuming that weight will be higher just because it's steel is silly. Yes, certain grades of steel are heavier than aluminum. But there are many that are lighter as well. It's not unheard of for frame builders to work with lower (read heavier) grades of steel during development of prototypes to keep cost down.

Yes, I agree that ~38lbs is heavy for an AM bike, but there's definitely room for improvement. I think its a great concept and would love to test it out.


In case you didn't notice -

Tubing gauge(s) will be determined by rider weight and riding style.

meaning weight will vary from frame to frame.


yea the price is high but this is essentially a custom build. not something that is mass produced.

 

[Verskis]

assuming that weight will be higher just because it's steel is silly. Yes, certain grades of steel are heavier than aluminum. But there are many that are lighter as well.

Assuming that certain grade of steel could be lighter than aluminium is silly.

To my knowledge, all the grades of steel have practically the same density (specific weight), so it is not the lighter weight of the material that makes some steel bikes lighter than others.

It is the strength that differs between the grades of steel. With stronger steel, you can use less material, which makes the bike lighter.
You could also make a steel bike that is as light as the aluminium one, you just have to use thinner tubes. But the specific weight of aluminium will always be lower.

 

[jonKranked]

Assuming that certain grade of steel could be lighter than aluminium is silly.

To my knowledge, all the grades of steel have practically the same density (specific weight), so it is not the lighter weight of the material that makes some steel bikes lighter than others.

It is the strength that differs between the grades of steel. With stronger steel, you can use less material, which makes the bike lighter.
You could also make a steel bike that is as light as the aluminium one, you just have to use thinner tubes. But the specific weight of aluminium will always be lower.

you're absolutely right, it's the strength to weight ratio that allows certain grades of steel to be built into lighter frames than an aluminum equivalent, but I was trying to keep my response as simple as possible for all the non engineers and e-engineers

 

[syadasti]

you're absolutely right, it's the strength to weight ratio that allows certain grades of steel to be built into lighter frames than an aluminum equivalent, but I was trying to keep my response as simple as possible for all the non engineers and e-engineers

You should also note that using the OP genius you could also claim (if it was a high-end Ti product):

The bikes are titanium they are going to be heavy regardless....Still though I love the idea and it being titanium means it would be bomb proof.

Ti is heavier than Al too

 

[jonKranked]

The bike seems nice but that price for a cro-mo shedbike is a bit steep.

agreed. I would LOVE to see what kind of weight could be dropped by switching to a higher quality tubeset.

And the geometry on the bike looks really good. I really like that he made an attempt at using a freewheel mid drivetrain to allow for on the fly shifting.

 

[Sandwich]

derp?

i love mark's designs...not sure they're quite "with the program" which is lightweight race bikes, but if your thing is dead solid steel, there's no place better to go. I like the idea, but wish it were just executed with an IG hub... I didn't read, but what width is the chain? 7spd, 8spd? I wonder if you might be missing the point if you're using 4 gears with 9speed spacing and still have the weight of a derailleur.

 

[jonKranked]

for the current iteration it's a custom fixed hub for the gearing, doesn't say whether its 135 or 150 tho.

 

[IH8Rice]

isnt it kEmosabe,not kimosabe?

 

[-BB-]

My E-speculation is that it could be spelled either way. Wasn't this a native american term... and they certainly did not use the same alphabet as us... So in translating it you take the way the word sounds and try to use the best combination of our letters to match that sound.


Same way things that are written in (ok... I may make a stupid comment here) Farsi, or arabic script could legitimately be spelled any number of ways. Or Japanese words that are in Kangi could be spelled any number of ways using our alphabet.

 

[-BB-]

On Wiki it is Kimosabe, Kemo Sabe AND Kemosabi


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemo_Sabe

Spelling
Fran Striker, writer of the original Lone Ranger radio program, spelled the word "ke-mo sah-bee." However, the spelling kemo sabe (or kemosabe) is by far the most common in popular culture, receiving approximately 107,010 hits on Google search in November 2008, as opposed to ke-mo sah-bee's 300. The word was entered into Webster's New Millennium Dictionary (edited by Barbara Ann Kipfer) in 2002 under the spelling "kemosabe."[2]

 

[IH8Rice]

My E-speculation is that it could be spelled either way. Wasn't this a native american term... and they certainly did not use the same alphabet as us... So in translating it you take the way the word sounds and try to use the best combination of our letters to match that sound.


Same way things that are written in (ok... I may make a stupid comment here) Farsi, or arabic script could legitimately be spelled any number of ways. Or Japanese words that are in Kangi could be spelled any number of ways using our alphabet.

all good points. the wiki says Kemo, but obviously thats not the standard for knowledge. ive just never seen it spelled with a I.

there are letter discepencies in Osama's name too..its actually Usama if im not mistaken

also, Kanji is the Japanese form of writing (and my middle name). Kangi was a time period in Japan

 

[-BB-]

More than you ever wanted to know:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080626134629AATg4ry

We all know, or at least those of us over 30 know, that Tonto called the Lone Ranger "Kemo Sabe." Did you know that during the early radio shows the Lone Ranger also called Tonto Kemo Sabe? (It was originally spelled "Kemo Sabay") I have assumed that it was a friendly expression from one of the Native American languages, and I have found nothing to dispute this, but very little to support it. Like all good theories, one must try just as hard to disprove them as to prove them. I have asked several Native Americans about "Kemo Sabe" and they have all looked at me like I was asking them about the unified theory of the universe.

Recently my friend Fran sent me a newspaper clipping that sheds some additional light on the matter. This information came from Dave Barry's column in the New York Daily News, Saturday, June 10, 2000. Dave Barry swears that he has researched the matter and his facts are correct. According to Barry, "The original "Lone Ranger" show was created at Detroit radio station WXYZ in 1933. This explains why Tonto called the Lone Ranger 'Kemo Sabe,' a phrase that is derived from the name of a boys' summer camp in Michigan owned by the director's uncle." Now the question remains as to where the boys' camp got their name. I have read that Kemosabe in the Navajo language means "soggy bush," or "soggy shrub." I don't believe they would have named their camp "soggy bush." There are a lot of things I could say at this point, but none of them are tasteful, so I'll move along.

A search of the Internet using "Kemo Sabe" got me 80 links, and many of those had other links. Several links led me to a miniature donkey named Kemo Sabe. There are a number of commercial ventures using the name Kemo or Kemo Sabe, including one design firm. I wonder if they know about the Navajo translation. I did find out that the first use of the name Kemo Sabe was in a very early film clip where a group of six Texas rangers were ambushed and all killed but one. The surviving ranger, which is where the "lone" comes from in Lone Ranger, is found and nursed back to health by an Indian named Tonto. Tonto recognizes a ring that he gave the ranger when they were youth many years ago and calls him Kemo Sabe, as in recognition of a long lost friend. At this juncture, we can only speculate to its meaning. "Trusted friend" or "long lost friend" are plausible guesses.

I don't trust anything that Dave Berry writes, so I did some further research. In the 1930's, when the Lone Ranger show got its start, there was indeed a camp in the northern part of Michigan called "Ke Mo Sah Bee" and the name is reported to have stood for "trusty friend" or "trusty scout." Since the show got its start in Michigan, it seems logical that the name could have come from there. Could Dave Berry be right? But wait! A respected researcher at the Smithsonian Institute claims that Kemo Sabe comes from the Tewa Indian dialect where "Kema" means "friend" and "Sabe" means "Apache." Another scholar claims that in the Yavapai Indian language the word "kinmasaba" means "one who is white."

Personally, I think Tonto, who was a Mohawk, was speaking Navajo, and he was insulting the lone ranger for being ambushed (no pun intended) like an amateur. After all, The Lone Ranger was a member of the famed Texas Rangers. If Gabby Hayes had found him instead of Tonto, the phrase "Lilly Livered," or "Dag nab it" might have become famous instead of Kemo Sabe.

 

[-BB-]

all good points. the wiki says Kemo, but obviously thats not the standard for knowledge. ive just never seen it spelled with a I.

there are letter discepencies in Osama's name too..its actually Usama if im not mistaken

also, Kanji is the Japanese form of writing (and my middle name). Kangi was a time period in Japan

And Congee is a rice porrage.

 

[-BB-]

Or how about Bonsai (tree) and Bonzai (a cheer for long life)

 

[syadasti]

isnt it kEmosabe,not kimosabe?

Kimboslice

 

[Sandwich]

 

[4xBoy]

Kimyougetmeabeer.

 

[norbar]

agreed. I would LOVE to see what kind of weight could be dropped by switching to a higher quality tubeset.

And the geometry on the bike looks really good. I really like that he made an attempt at using a freewheel mid drivetrain to allow for on the fly shifting.

That's why I complain. For around 2500$ you can have an AM nicolai (though w/o shock) and you can customize the **** out of their bikes.

 

[DhDork]

Price isn't really all that bad. Weight isn't too bad either. With the right parts you can easily have it sit around 37lbs. Lighter wheels, boxxer wc, elixir brakes or new code r's, xo shifters, and drop the hammerschmidt for a lighter crankset. You have a light Dh bike with 4 speeds (a lot of people use mod'd 6sp cassette anyways, whats 2 less with the right gearing set up?) for $2750. Steel, transmission set up, 150mm dropout w/ or w/o floater, good geo. Sounds like a good setup to me!

 

[norbar]

Price isn't really all that bad. Weight isn't too bad either. With the right parts you can easily have it sit around 37lbs. Lighter wheels, boxxer wc, elixir brakes or new code r's, xo shifters, and drop the hammerschmidt for a lighter crankset. You have a light Dh bike with 4 speeds (a lot of people use mod'd 6sp cassette anyways, whats 2 less with the right gearing set up?) for $2750. Steel, transmission set up, 150mm dropout w/ or w/o floater, good geo. Sounds like a setup to me!

I hate the argument that it's buildable to some weight. I want to know the frame weight not how light someone can build it. Nicolai claims their g-boxx bike can be 39-40lbs but then you learn that the frame weights 19 pounds...

 

[rockofullr]

A search of the Internet using "Kemo Sabe" got me 80 links, and many of those had other links. Several links led me to a miniature donkey named Kemo Sabe.

Someone needs to go riding

 

[DhDork]

I hate the argument that it's buildable to some weight. I want to know the frame weight not how light someone can build it. Nicolai claims their g-boxx bike can be 39-40lbs but then you learn that the frame weights 19 pounds...

My point was that he had it at 38.6lbs with heavy-ish parts on it. Plenty of room to go heavier or lighter. He probably isn't claiming frame weight due to the irregularities between frame size, build options (freewheel mech, floater or not, etc) and rider weight (tubing thickness). Also on top of that, 2 riders both the same weight and size, may get 2 different weighted bikes. All part of getting a hand crafted frame. Reasonable enough for me. If he has it on record, I'm sure he wouldn't mind getting you his frame weight if you ask for it.

 

[jonKranked]

38.6 lbs for what is basically an all mountain bike. not a dh bike. could definitely do DH on it though, but would benefit from maybe a little slacker head tube, or a 1.5 HT so you could run adapter cups.

 

[norbar]

38.6 lbs for what is basically an all mountain bike. not a dh bike. could definitely do DH on it though, but would benefit from maybe a little slacker head tube, or a 1.5 HT so you could run adapter cups.

Thats how I see it. It's a dh able am bike, not a dh bike. With some AM parts (fox 36 is still lighter than any dh fork).

 

[DhDork]

Thats how I see it. It's a dh able am bike, not a dh bike. With some AM parts (fox 36 is still lighter than any dh fork).

I wouldn't necessarily even call it an AM bike at that weight and with that geometry. Maybe mini-dh, but with the weight, geometry and travel, I'd say its just a smaller, more nimble, jess chunky DH bike than his Chocolate Chip (think Yeti 303rdh vs 303dh). The only thing that makes it an AM bike is the hammerschmidt and Fox fork (which isn't really all that lighter than a Boxxer WC). Its like throwing a Totem and a Hammerschmidt on a V-10 and calling it a AM bike. Give me sub 32lbs, the fox fork, lighter wheels and a little steeper, more pedal friendly geo, then its an AM bike.

 

[jonKranked]

I wouldn't necessarily even call it an AM bike at that weight and with that geometry. Maybe mini-dh, but with the weight, geometry and travel, I'd say its just a smaller, more nimble, jess chunky DH bike than his Chocolate Chip (think Yeti 303rdh vs 303dh). The only thing that makes it an AM bike is the hammerschmidt and Fox fork (which isn't really all that lighter than a Boxxer WC). Its like throwing a Totem and a Hammerschmidt on a V-10 and calling it a AM bike. Give me sub 32lbs, the fox fork, lighter wheels and a little steeper, more pedal friendly geo, then its an AM bike.

essentially you can build it however you want it. Mark states on the website that it can be built anywhere from 6" to 9" of travel while varying the head angle all based on the configuration of the shock plates. So I'm sure you could have a set of plates made that would give you a 66 or 67 degree HA with ~6" of travel.

Personally, I think the use of the HS is cool to give a good range of all around gears. but you could certainly ditch it in favor of different gearings and less weight.

definitely a bike built with a downhiller in mind - as more of a do it all kind of bike, not an xc rider that wants something burlier.

 

[Sandwich]

more like an AM-able DH bike, I'm thinking.

Plus I know mark rides at highland, as well as killington and plattekill. I can't think of something better than being able to own one bike and ride all three places well. Even my sunday is a bit of a pig at highland, but I wouldn't want anything less than that at plattekill or whiteface....so do I buy an intense SS and a sunday? or buy a bike that could serve two purposes? It's a neat idea, anyways....

 

[DhDork]

more like an AM-able DH bike, I'm thinking.

Plus I know mark rides at highland, as well as killington and plattekill. I can't think of something better than being able to own one bike and ride all three places well. Even my sunday is a bit of a pig at highland, but I wouldn't want anything less than that at plattekill or whiteface....so do I buy an intense SS and a sunday? or buy a bike that could serve two purposes? It's a neat idea, anyways....

Touché.

Gotta ask though, if he wants to solve his derailleur 'problem' with placement, wouldn't one move it to the frame? Hell, he's already making his own derailleur. He then might be able to get a larger range of gears. Aim for 6 or 7. I don't know, just a thought.

 

[p-spec]

assuming that weight will be higher just because it's steel is silly. Yes, certain grades of steel are heavier than aluminum. But there are many that are lighter as well. It's not unheard of for frame builders to work with lower (read heavier) grades of steel during development of prototypes to keep cost down.

Yes, I agree that ~38lbs is heavy for an AM bike, but there's definitely room for improvement. I think its a great concept and would love to test it out.


In case you didn't notice -



meaning weight will vary from frame to frame.


yea the price is high but this is essentially a custom build. not something that is mass produced.

This guys is an engineer or wat ????

its called reynolds 853