[roel_koel]

one of my previous customers (here in the UK) sold his Wilson SP because he was having ongoing issues with the B/B area (regularly requiring rebuilds) and he is only a recreational DH rider, not extreme in any sense...

trying to get replacement parts (washer / shims?) through the distrib. (from Devinci in Canada) was taking too long and he basically got fed up with the high maintainance programme

he also said the alignment of the frame was not great, when he unbolted one end of his shock, it was 5mm off from the mounting and required some "flexure" to get the shock back into the mounting

I've ridden the Wilson SP and absolutely loved the ride quality, its incredibly confidence inspiring, pedals with authority and very neutral to ride, but have not owned one so cannot speak with any authority on long-term ownership / durability or any pivot problems first hand?


I have owned the older Ollie, 8-Flat-8 and several Hectiks and now a Dixon SP (all-mtn), and sold tonnes of their bikes to UK riders, and can say that Devinci always stood behind their products when any warranty issues rarely arose

 

[Tetreault]

Norco has a certain stigma from certain people that they don't build quality bikes. It's a load of BS.

I find it funny how other smaller bike companies still have a big following after repeated screw ups, poor customer service, and broken promises but companies like Norco get **** on by the people who have never owner or even ridden one.

Norco used to be the pride and joy of many canadian riders up until 2003-2004. A shift in production, a move away from using easton tubing, and other design flaws attributed to the hate they have received over the last few years. The massive recall for the majority of their dh frames didn't help matters a few years ago either.

Having worked for a norco dealer up until last fall i can completely understand the stigma behind the product. Lets be honest, the previous VPS suspension was total crap, the build quality was not up to par with competitors such as giant, marin, specialized, ect

While They were nearly always good with warrenty issues, there were also times where MASSIVE **** ups happened. Last year with the introduction of the truax and the range, it appears they are trying to move forward, but for me, being jaded and grumpy from working with so many companies, i would personally go with the devinci based on the ride, price, and overall quality of the product

 

[demo 9]

Demo 9 says demo 8

 

[ekimox]

Norco used to be the pride and joy of many canadian riders up until 2003-2004. A shift in production, a move away from using easton tubing, and other design flaws attributed to the hate they have received over the last few years. The massive recall for the majority of their dh frames didn't help matters a few years ago either.

Having worked for a norco dealer up until last fall i can completely understand the stigma behind the product. Lets be honest, the previous VPS suspension was total crap, the build quality was not up to par with competitors such as giant, marin, specialized, ect

While They were nearly always good with warrenty issues, there were also times where MASSIVE **** ups happened. Last year with the introduction of the truax and the range, it appears they are trying to move forward, but for me, being jaded and grumpy from working with so many companies, i would personally go with the devinci based on the ride, price, and overall quality of the product

Fair enough.

 

[Transcend]

I wouldn't worry too much about the durability of the first year of the Aurum. Norco builds bikes the right way and has the $$$ to make sure they're properly tested before releasing a new product. I'd stay away from first year bikes from the "boutique" companies though.

Keep dreaming.

 

[toodles]

Norco has a certain stigma from certain people that they don't build quality bikes. It's a load of BS.

I've broken one myself, and seen countless others have the same issue.

My comment was purely in response to your post regarding Norco vs boutique frame manufacturers. Given my experience with Norco and companies like Turner and Transition I'd say I've definitely had less hassle with the smaller companies.

Having said that, I think the new Aurum looks sick and I think they've really done well with it. I'd love to run the Aurum for a season. I think they've hit the nail on the head with the geo and features on offer.

 

[norbar]

Norco has a certain stigma from certain people that they don't build quality bikes. It's a load of BS.

Dude there is no stigma. Norco builds quality bikes for very good cash but they had a huge recall not long ago. First year of their newer dh-teams used to crack, same for not so old (3 or 2 years ago) shores. They had many cracking frames.
I never claimed that they are bad bikes but your assumption that big cash = no screwups means you are just not paying attention. Almost any BIG bike company had one in the last 2 years with maybe giant being an exception since they are really conservative with their designs anyway.



As for small companies that have a following after screwups and bad cs please remind me of one. I think the pun is on evil but last time I checked the following was pretty damn small.

 

[ekimox]

Dude there is no stigma. Norco builds quality bikes for very good cash but they had a huge recall not long ago. First year of their newer dh-teams used to crack, same for not so old (3 or 2 years ago) shores. They had many cracking frames.
I never claimed that they are bad bikes but your assumption that big cash = no screwups means you are just not paying attention. Almost any BIG bike company had one in the last 2 years with maybe giant being an exception since they are really conservative with their designs anyway.



As for small companies that have a following after screwups and bad cs please remind me of one. I think the pun is on evil but last time I checked the following was pretty damn small.

I have been paying attention. Just don't forget that Norco handled that whole recall issue better than almost any other company would have. Their top tier Team DH wasn't affected (2009) the Shore series and the carry over older DH frames were. I get it.

I'm not some Norco fanboy I'm just trying to defend a point which trying to do sometimes on the internet seems fruitless.

My original point was and still is, is that I would much rather take a "chance" on a first year product from a major bike builder who has the money and time to get it right rather than a company that sends out an unproven product for the masses to test. In all of the testing that Norco has been doing with this frame in the past couple years I doubt that there will be any significant issues.

If there are issues, may god have mercy on my soul for experessing my opinion on the internet.

 

[norbar]

I have been paying attention. Just don't forget that Norco handled that whole recall issue better than almost any other company would have. Their top tier Team DH wasn't affected (2009) the Shore series and the carry over older DH frames were. I get it.

I'm not some Norco fanboy I'm just trying to defend a point which trying to do sometimes on the internet seems fruitless.

My original point was and still is, is that I would much rather take a "chance" on a first year product from a major bike builder who has the money and time to get it right rather than a company that sends out an unproven product for the masses to test. In all of the testing that Norco has been doing with this frame in the past couple years I doubt that there will be any significant issues.

If there are issues, may god have mercy on my soul for experessing my opinion on the internet.

They handled the issue good but dont pretend like they dont have a history of ****ups. They are a great company but your argument is silly.

As for testing and big companies. New demo 8 - 2nd most popular downhill fork kills your frame, rear hub issues, shock fit issues. 09 trek session 88 ? Any GT DH bike before the fury? Do I need to go on?

As for small companies that is why you are not paying attention if you assume that the small companies release their bikes for the masses to test. You think you have to own a big wc team to have your bike tested properly? Look for example at the bike I ride - 63 testers around the world over the course of what? 2 years? Yeah untested.
You are speculating and have no idea. The number of problematic bikes is the same of both sides of the money fence.

 

[atrokz]

Having a recall wasn't the only thing that created a stigma for them. They had quality issues all around in the early to late-mid 2000's. I had to strip down a Team DH for a racer here in 07 and the bearings were pressed in over paint (!!), the headtube was reamed almost exactly 1" to suit a 1" steelset (wtf) and the King Steelset was installed with the warning sticker still on it so that it essentialy jammed up so bad inside. Things are much better since then, however, as they do have a ton of employees who are passionate about the sport. I really like the look of the Aurum and am considering it now. Norco has come a loooooooong way it seems.

 

[PepperJester]

...New demo 8 - 2nd most popular downhill fork kills your frame, rear hub issues, shock fit issues...

I'm not looking at running a 40, will either run the stock boxxer, or boxxer with avy cart, or a new sell the boxxer and put a 888 on it. So thats not really an issue for me.

The shock fit issues seem to be taken care of. If I swap shock, chances are it would be to a CCDB so I know that will fit.


But what are the issues with the rear hubs? This is new to me.

 

[Pslide]

So a little sidebar here: How much of the price increases we are seeing in new frames is to cover the cost of warantee issues / recalls due to quality issues arising from working with lighter and lighter gauges of aluminum?

There are have been more than couple screw ups by more than a couple companies lately...that's got to cost them loads. I don't even know how some companies have remained undead, if you catch my drift.

Maybe carbon is the answer. Not only does it sells bikes, but probably saves on warantee claims...win win.

 

[Dogboy]

But what are the issues with the rear hubs? This is new to me.

Not a huge deal, but something to be aware of. The dropouts have a pocket on the inside that the hub endcaps slide into. If your hub endcaps are larger than the pocket then some material needs to be removed from the hub or frame. Not an issue with all hub brands. Here's a pic for reference - check the non drive-side dropout.

 

[atrokz]

What was the issue with 40's fitting on Demos?? Figure I'll ask here now that it's been brought up before looking through archives.

 

[Dogboy]

What was the issue with 40's fitting on Demos?? Figure I'll ask here now that it's been brought up before looking through archives.

The lower crown contacts the downtube. This is due to the size/shape of the downtube, length of the lower part of the headtube, and 40 crown design. If I was running a 40 on the Demo, I would just use an external lower cup - easy fix.

 

[norbar]

I'm not looking at running a 40, will either run the stock boxxer, or boxxer with avy cart, or a new sell the boxxer and put a 888 on it. So thats not really an issue for me.

The shock fit issues seem to be taken care of. If I swap shock, chances are it would be to a CCDB so I know that will fit.


But what are the issues with the rear hubs? This is new to me.

I wasnt taking a jab at the demo ( or norco for that matter). I think it is a good bike for what you describe. It was just an example of a big $$$ screwup. I dont like the bike since for that cash it shouldnt happen and I tend to be against companies who are major promotors of myths among the biking community but if you can get a decent price for it it is not a bad choice.

Id still get a legend though

 

[IH8Rice]

So a little sidebar here: How much of the price increases we are seeing in new frames is to cover the cost of warantee issues / recalls due to quality issues arising from working with lighter and lighter gauges of aluminum?

the price increase was felt across the board by all mfg's in all categories of bikes.

 

[PepperJester]

I wasnt taking a jab at the demo ( or norco for that matter). I think it is a good bike for what you describe. It was just an example of a big $$$ screwup. I dont like the bike since for that cash it shouldnt happen and I tend to be against companies who are major promotors of myths among the biking community but if you can get a decent price for it it is not a bad choice.

Id still get a legend though

I'd love a legend, don't think any local shops deal with them thou. tiss a shame.

 

[Tetreault]

Having a recall wasn't the only thing that created a stigma for them. They had quality issues all around in the early to late-mid 2000's

This is exactly my issue with them. I can hold back on the problems from 99-02 as the industry as a whole was quite bad for dh/fr/dj bikes as it was new and people were vastly pushing limits that were never seen before, things get forgot about when everything is new. from 03-09 were the years where norco totally humped the dog on nearly all of their models. not to mention having a subpar manufacturer building your frames doesn't help either. In the last 6 or 7 years i have had to deal with norco warranty claims far more than any other manufacturer. All the way from recalls, to sheered headtubes, to every single cable guide breaking off.

they do have a ton of employees who are passionate about the sport. I really like the look of the Aurum and am considering it now. Norco has come a loooooooong way it seems.

that is the reason why shops love to deal with them, even though the product wasn't always the best, the reps are more then willing to bend over backwards for you. the warranty department was always enigmatic

the price increase was felt across the board by all mfg's in all categories of bikes.

i would like to think that it has less to do with warranty claims as it does with the increased costs of manufacturing overseas, both with the developing eastern economies as well as the price to simply ship the damn frames over here on containers.

I would be curious to know what the environmental impact is per frame being built stateside as opposed to overseas.

 

[norbar]

i would like to think that it has less to do with warranty claims as it does with the increased costs of manufacturing overseas, both with the developing eastern economies as well as the price to simply ship the damn frames over here on containers.

I wonder. Is there really an increase in warranty claims / number of bikes bought recently? It may be me but outside of some first year problems most current bikes crack less than bikes of the old.

 

[Tetreault]

I wonder. Is there really an increase in warranty claims / number of bikes bought recently? It may be me but outside of some first year problems most current bikes crack less than bikes of the old.

recreational bikes, here in canada the $500-$1000 dollar complete bikes, see failures at a similar rate as years past, or at least it appears that way to me, the shop probably has a record of warranty claims sitting in a file cabinet somewhere, but i'm not going to go dig through that.

As for high end bikes, I will say that the rate of warranty claims per bike bought is lower than it was a few years ago, however the problems these frames are generally running into are different then dh frames of old.

I used to see far more complete headtube failures, broken seat stays, sheared bottom brackets ect. In the early 2000's we sold far less dh/fr bikes then today, and i seem to remember hanging ALOT of norco VPS's up in the back

Now it appears that linkage failures, cracked welds as opposed to total destruction, and misaligned or bent frames, have taken over as the most common warranty frames.

I'm no engineer here, but i would assume that the change in warranty issues has arose from having higher quaility frames now a days, even though the tube sets are drastically lighter. Hydroforming has done wonders for complete catastrophic failures.

 

[norbar]

I'm no engineer here, but i would assume that the change in warranty issues has arose from having higher quaility frames now a days, even though the tube sets are drastically lighter. Hydroforming has done wonders for complete catastrophic failures.

Actually hydroforming does little for extra durability. It is just a usefull tool but you can work around it.
Id rather say real design and FEA instead of guesswork have done wonders for catastropic failures. Many engineering friends still call me a liar when I suggest most dh frames not so long ago were build that way.

 

[Transcend]

Not a huge deal, but something to be aware of. The dropouts have a pocket on the inside that the hub endcaps slide into. If your hub endcaps are larger than the pocket then some material needs to be removed from the hub or frame. Not an issue with all hub brands. Here's a pic for reference - check the non drive-side dropout.

This has apparently been changed for 2012. Mine arrives in this week hopefully, will let you know.

 

[ekimox]

They handled the issue good but dont pretend like they dont have a history of ****ups. They are a great company but your argument is silly.

As for testing and big companies. New demo 8 - 2nd most popular downhill fork kills your frame, rear hub issues, shock fit issues. 09 trek session 88 ? Any GT DH bike before the fury? Do I need to go on?

As for small companies that is why you are not paying attention if you assume that the small companies release their bikes for the masses to test. You think you have to own a big wc team to have your bike tested properly? Look for example at the bike I ride - 63 testers around the world over the course of what? 2 years? Yeah untested.
You are speculating and have no idea. The number of problematic bikes is the same of both sides of the money fence.

Holy crap dude. You're whole post makes numerous assumptions of what you thought I meant in my post.

" ...dont pretend like they dont have a history of ****ups."
Never did.

"...New demo 8 - 2nd most popular downhill fork kills your frame, rear hub issues, shock fit issues. 09 trek session 88 ? Any GT DH bike before the fury?"
Never said that big bike companies don't have issues. In my opinion your less likely to run into major problems.

"...You think you have to own a big wc team to have your bike tested properly?"
You're ****ing kidding me right?

I'll go back to having no idea and you can go back to making your asinine assumptions about what I may or may not have meant in my posts. Give it a rest.

 

[PepperJester]

This has apparently been changed for 2012. Mine arrives in this week hopefully, will let you know.

That would be good to know.

I plan on running a set of Flows that I already have. Rear is on a Jumping Flea. After some further reading it seems this hub would have needed to be modified.

 

[norbar]

Holy crap dude. You're whole post makes numerous assumptions of what you thought I meant in my post.

" ...dont pretend like they dont have a history of ****ups."
Never did.

"...New demo 8 - 2nd most popular downhill fork kills your frame, rear hub issues, shock fit issues. 09 trek session 88 ? Any GT DH bike before the fury?"
Never said that big bike companies don't have issues. In my opinion your less likely to run into major problems.

"...You think you have to own a big wc team to have your bike tested properly?"
You're ****ing kidding me right?

I'll go back to having no idea and you can go back to making your asinine assumptions about what I may or may not have meant in my posts. Give it a rest.

I have to make assumptions because you haddnt argumented your idea that bigger companies are less likeley to to produce frames with issues. I also didnt post it to show you that they have issues but that they quite often have issues (ie. as often as the small companies if not more). If you dont like my assumptions please give me the reasons for your silly theory because I dont see it having any roots in reality.

 

[Nagaredama]

So a little sidebar here: How much of the price increases we are seeing in new frames is to cover the cost of warantee issues / recalls due to quality issues arising from working with lighter and lighter gauges of aluminum?

There are have been more than couple screw ups by more than a couple companies lately...that's got to cost them loads. I don't even know how some companies have remained undead, if you catch my drift.

Maybe carbon is the answer. Not only does it sells bikes, but probably saves on warantee claims...win win.

Here is why bike/components prices are going up.

US Dollar is tanking against the Taiwan New Dollar
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=TWD&view=5Y

 

[Transcend]

That would be good to know.

I plan on running a set of Flows that I already have. Rear is on a Jumping Flea. After some further reading it seems this hub would have needed to be modified.

It's on the way! I will, however, be in vegas all week for the annual ****show, so will let you know when i get back.

 

[ekimox]

I have to make assumptions because you haddnt argumented your idea that bigger companies are less likeley to to produce frames with issues. I also didnt post it to show you that they have issues but that they quite often have issues (ie. as often as the small companies if not more). If you dont like my assumptions please give me the reasons for your silly theory because I dont see it having any roots in reality.

Yeah you're right next time I'll make sure to post in great detail to make sure my point in well argumented to leave no stone unturned so people like you won't have to make your idiot assumptions. I forget how serious DH and the internet can be sometimes.

You're the guy who lurks waiting to pounce on someone for making a "mistake" in a post and then spew your bull**** just to feel better about yourself You get a gold star.

 

[captainspauldin]

i would like to think that it has less to do with warranty claims as it does with the increased costs of manufacturing overseas, both with the developing eastern economies as well as the price to simply ship the damn frames over here on containers.

Transpacific freight rates were up last year (compared to how low they were after '08) , but dropping again this year. The analysts are expecting us to have a net loss this year, but we'll see, it might turn around. I'm curious to actually see what each bike manufacturer is paying for just the ocean shipping portion each year, I'm willing to bet the big increase is somewhere else in the supply chain.. I could be completely wrong..

I would be curious to know what the environmental impact is per frame being built stateside as opposed to overseas.

I have plenty of marketing material showing just how much more efficient/better for the environment ocean transport is versus any other form of transportation. You know those CSX commercials showing how efficient trains are? Modern ships emit about 70% less CO2 per metric ton vs Modern trains.

My point being, the biggest "environmental impact" is going to come from the local shipping (manufacturer's warehouse/factory to distro to bike shop, etc) via planes/trucks.

 

[William42]

Holy crap dude. You're whole post makes numerous assumptions of what you thought I meant in my post.

" ...dont pretend like they dont have a history of ****ups."
Never did.

"...New demo 8 - 2nd most popular downhill fork kills your frame, rear hub issues, shock fit issues. 09 trek session 88 ? Any GT DH bike before the fury?"
Never said that big bike companies don't have issues. In my opinion your less likely to run into major problems.

"...You think you have to own a big wc team to have your bike tested properly?"
You're ****ing kidding me right?

I'll go back to having no idea and you can go back to making your asinine assumptions about what I may or may not have meant in my posts. Give it a rest.

Not that I disagree, I'm pretty sure everybody has issues from time to time, but I'm curious what issues the demo has with the 40? I've seen literally hundreds of bikes with that setup, they're all running the recommended bumpers, and there are no problems? Not sure how that's an issue because you don't get to run the stock bumpers.

And as somebody who has an 09 88, I'd be curious what issues I should be looking for? From socal to N* to east coast rocks, my DT is as good as ever and I have no problems to mention other then a few notchy bearings (on a 3 year old bike). There is a difference between widespread catastrophic failure, and kinks in terms of certain components that you're failing to distinguish. Anyway, no hate for norco here, but you're oversimplifying in your zealous defense of norco.

 

[Tetreault]

I have plenty of marketing material showing just how much more efficient/better for the environment ocean transport is versus any other form of transportation. You know those CSX commercials showing how efficient trains are? Modern ships emit about 70% less CO2 per metric ton vs Modern trains.

My point being, the biggest "environmental impact" is going to come from the local shipping (manufacturer's warehouse/factory to distro to bike shop, etc) via planes/trucks.

exactly im not saying the boat is the biggest problems here, im just curious as to what amount of total pollution is emitted from a frame built in asia compared to one done in north america. All the way from materials wasted, to emissions on all forms of shipment ect

I think it would give people another perspective on what they choose to buy, if infact buying a foreign or home grown product had a large gap in terms of environmental impact, or if it was minimal

 

[WBC]

Think about all the remote res shocks because companies like Turner built highly desirable frames around obscure dampers like Romic. Also, my MonsterT smashed the side of my Banshee frame back in 2003, even though there was no reason to run a Banshee if you weren't running a Monster. It's lame when it happens, but it's nothing new. At least with Specialized, you can still run a 40, it just isn't as easy as running a boxxer.

In regards to Norco's quality, they're much, much better today, but they certainly haven't been the best. A handful of broken chainstays over the years have proven their weakpoints, but I would argue that Norcos are stronger than most, and they take care of problems. With each broken chainstay, I've never been questioned about why they should warranty it. My current trailbike is a 2008 Norco Fluid (4-5" XC/AM frame) where I've shortened the shock and ran it like a mini DH bike for the last few seasons. I've flogged it harder than almost any bike I've owned, cased big jumps, blown up wheels, and snapped Shimano crank spindles. I broke one chainstay after 3 years (which they sent me a free replacement immediately even after I rawed the frame), and that's it. I haven't even replaced the bearings, and it's still tight and smooth in the back. It pedals pretty bad, it's heavy, the chainstays are a mile long, but it's worked for 3 seasons, I like it, and the complete bike cost significantly less than the framesets I was looking at.

I think buying a Norco now is much different than years' past, but if their service remains as good as it's been, even if their bikes have troubles, you'll be able to keep riding it and having fun. I love the way the Wilson rides, and for 2012, I'm pretty set on either the Wilson or the Aurum. I think all this talk about reliability is very important, and it's something that I value when looking at frames. I've seen the Wilson in action for a season and know it's a tough bike, and I know Norco is doing rigorous testing on the Aurum, and will stand behind their product. Also, Specialized probably has the most generous warranty in the business (which I've proven with my old FSR Ground Control, Big Hit V.1, P3, Big Hit V.2, Demo 9, SX Trail). I hope I'm right for my own sake when I buy one, but if you're looking for a bike to hold onto for a few seasons, I don't think you could have three better options than the Aurum, Wilson or Demo.