It also depends if the used design is designed well. And then there is a good suspension setup what really makes the difference. If you setup your suspension like crap, your bike will ride like crap. And then there are other aspects like geometry and riders preferences.Axle path and leverage curve followed by pedaling are more important imho.
yes but the bike designer can't design their customers I do not understand the 1st sentence thoughIt also depends if the used design is designed well. And then there is a good suspension setup what really makes the difference. If you setup your suspension like crap, your bike will ride like crap. And then there are other aspects like geometry and riders preferences.
As for the split pivot/abp design, I must say it works well, although I'm not so happy about the low pivot point and therefore the forward axle path on my Session 88...
hmmm, ride DH trails, not DHBMX trails. Real trails have bumps all the time. The only place I've ever seen "braking bumps" has been on DHBMX trails.brake before brake bumps, not in them.
I think he's saying a suspension system is entirely dependent on the quality of its design. IE, a sunday knockoff may perform like crap because they didn't optimize the leverage rate or arrange the pivots appropriately. Or, a very low single pivot vs. an "optimized" single pivot at chainring height.yes but the bike designer can't design their customers I do not understand the 1st sentence though
Well, that was not my best english...yes but the bike designer can't design their customers I do not understand the 1st sentence though
Same feeling here. I had some test rides on an Alutech Keiler (horst link) wich was way easier to start drifting with a bit of input of my rear brake. On my bike, sometimes I have a bit of hard time to start a drift, because there's so much grip. It takes a bit of time to get used to it.I'm on a new V10C and it feels active under braking. Its almost hard for me to get used too. I'm coming off a Revolt which would let you know that you were on the brakes too hard. The V10C seems like it just keeps eating the bumps even with the brakes on.
I'm still on the fence as to whether this is a good thing or not.
Yeah but thats why axle path and leverage curves are important. I didn't understand because it looked like there is something extra that influences the susp quality.I think he's saying a suspension system is entirely dependent on the quality of its design. IE, a sunday knockoff may perform like crap because they didn't optimize the leverage rate or arrange the pivots appropriately. Or, a very low single pivot vs. an "optimized" single pivot at chainring height.
Why would it be a bad thing?I'm still on the fence as to whether this is a good thing or not.
MOAR gripz in the rough, therefore you can't set up a drift as easily and show off your mad roost skillz brah.Why would it be a bad thing?
Hmmm......I'm on a new V10C and it feels active under braking. Its almost hard for me to get used too. I'm coming off a Revolt which would let you know that you were on the brakes too hard. The V10C seems like it just keeps eating the bumps even with the brakes on.
I'm still on the fence as to whether this is a good thing or not.
LOL WUT?I'm on a new V10C and it feels active under braking. Its almost hard for me to get used too. I'm coming off a Revolt which would let you know that you were on the brakes too hard. The V10C seems like it just keeps eating the bumps even with the brakes on.
I'm still on the fence as to whether this is a good thing or not.
I have never ridden either bike but I was under the impression that the DW link was better at isolating breaking force from the suspension than the VPP.
Revolt isn't a DW link. Its a linkage actuated SP (DELTA Link). The two Sundays I had felt quite different from the DELTA link.Hmmm......
I have never ridden either bike but I was under the impression that the DW link was better at isolating breaking force from the suspension than the VPP.
LOL WUT?
When I'm sitting in the parking lot drinking beer, holding my rear brake to keep from falling over.....the swingarm bounces up and and down making it look like I'm dancing.Here's a question for you guys to think about: What is your definition of "Active" ?
For me it like this.Here's a question for you guys to think about: What is your definition of "Active" ?
that's your tape worm making you all bouncy - Active x 2When I'm sitting in the parking lot drinking beer, holding my rear brake to keep from falling over.....the swingarm bounces up and and down making it look like I'm dancing.
There's so much more that goes into a bike than just the name of its pivot system. There are some rough characteristics that each exhibit, but it's the sum of the execution that really defines how each works. For example:For me it like this.
The rear wheel on my V10 seems to keep tracking along the ground even when I grab a mitt full of rear brake. It feels like I can lock the wheel and not even know it.
On the Revolt the rear wheel would track the ground but not the same as when I wasn't on the brakes. I'd know that the wheel wasn't spinning because of the way the bike reacted.
Here's a question I've been wondering for awhile...
Can you give us a ranking on how each of your suspension systems rate for pedaling and braking?
Which one pedals best? DW link, DELTA, Split Pivot? Which one has the best braking characteristics? If there is another way or other attributes to rank/rate them I'm all ears.
It's the same definition as "plush".Here's a question for you guys to think about: What is your definition of "Active" ?
Ahhhh, No. This is not true.Want to quickly check if your suspension will be active under braking? In stationary position, jump on your bike and bounce up and down on your rear end without touching the brakes. Take note on how plush and active your rear end is. Now lock both front and rear brakes and bounce up and down? Notice your suspension stiffening? How stiff your suspension gets determine how less active it will be under braking.
I am so confused by your post. I designed both of those bikes. The Sunday had a roughly 2.5 degree slacker head angle than the SGS, and more constant (more consistent lever feel) and similar levels of braking squat than the SGS. I was doing a LOT of data acquisition at the time, not like this crappy little 2 channel 250Hz systems that you see cobbed onto random bikes, I am talking about full scale rally level data at high frequencies. The Sunday was superior to the SGS from both rider feedback and in every measurable data parameter. We put Sam Hill and Bryn Atkinson on the bikes and Sam dropped ~7 seconds and Bryn ~14 from their race runs that same day.the first thing I have felt when doing my first run on a sunday bike in 2006 was how the bike was less forgiven under braking
Coming from a SGS ironhorse.....
The other thing was how the SGS was slacker then the sunday. (fixed that with angle set headset that I made a week after I bought the bike)
I have the sunday for 5 years now and I really love it. But I wish it was active like FSR...)
Yes, I've been working on it in all of my spare time.. Seeing as it's 6 something AM here and I expect to be in the office at 8PM tonight, how am I doing? hahGood point. Maybe we need bikes with truly active suspension. Remember those old Inifiniti Q45's? The ones that would actually extend the outside suspension around a turn - active response to mass transfer - but that still allowed bump compliance?
Is that what you've been up to Dave? The new "DW-A"?
Each design is really only as good as its pivot locations. When I design a new bike for one of my partners, say Turner 5 Spot vs Pivot Mach 5.7, I am looking at the desired end result and designing towards that. Everything is a tradeoff. As a designer, I know of no other system with the ability to make less compromises than the dw-link design. There is a real separation of anti-squat, braking squat, leverage ratio, layout, packaging that can be tactically and independently manipulated. No amount of marketing BS that you read in a magazine is going to change that. It is what it is. With Split Pivot, I can do some really cool things too, I think of it as the best possible single pivot suspension, with a dialed in floating brake and leverage ratio. Obviously it is a single pivot for acceleration, and a multi link for braking, so again it comes down to very careful pivot placement. With Delta I have to trade off acceleration and braking. They are controlled by one common pivot location, but the design has AWESOME flexibility with leverage ratios and geometry control. You can change the two independently and that is a huge feature for some riders.For me it like this.
The rear wheel on my V10 seems to keep tracking along the ground even when I grab a mitt full of rear brake. It feels like I can lock the wheel and not even know it.
On the Revolt the rear wheel would track the ground but not the same as when I wasn't on the brakes. I'd know that the wheel wasn't spinning because of the way the bike reacted.
Here's a question I've been wondering for awhile...
Can you give us a ranking on how each of your suspension systems rate for pedaling and braking?
Which one pedals best? DW link, DELTA, Split Pivot? Which one has the best braking characteristics? If there is another way or other attributes to rank/rate them I'm all ears.
That must have been somewhat encouraging that you'd got things right.We put Sam Hill and Bryn Atkinson on the bikes and Sam dropped ~7 seconds and Bryn ~14 from their race runs that same day.
give me cold fusion and I will deliverI want a bike so active I feel like Nigel Mansell.
DW - get to it!
Yeah I nearly fainted when I got the news, and that was on the first prototypes, (the final bikes were much lighter and had further refined suspension) and Sam I believe had won earlier that day on the SGS as well. That was pretty crazy stuff.That must have been somewhat encouraging that you'd got things right.
I am so confused by your post. I designed both of those bikes. The Sunday had a roughly 2.5 degree slacker head angle than the SGS, and more constant (more consistent lever feel) and similar levels of braking squat than the SGS. I was doing a LOT of data acquisition at the time, not like this crappy little 2 channel 250Hz systems that you see cobbed onto random bikes, I am talking about full scale rally level data at high frequencies. The Sunday was superior to the SGS from both rider feedback and in every measurable data parameter. We put Sam Hill and Bryn Atkinson on the bikes and Sam dropped ~7 seconds and Bryn ~14 from their race runs that same day.
My point really had nothing to do with Sam or Bryn, the point was that the data, actual measurements taken with computer equipment during riding clearly showed that the Sunday was performing better under braking. In a back to back test, this leads me to setup. On your particular bike(s) I am expecting that the "feel" that you have in your mind is related to setup, or is not exactly equivalent.I had the SGS with 8" fork (888) so the bike was slacker than it was in your design
But I can definitely say that the FSR link on the SGS was better when braking...
I am not Sam or Brian, and maybe they don’t care about things like that, (when I race I don’t care about it too) but if you ride for the fun of riding, it is important. (For me)
Your new design look like it combines the single pivot with the FSR.
I want to know if under braking it acts like FSR and remain active.
Thanks.
(Love your work)