Brakes - Shimano Saint vs. Formula The One

bizutch · May 11, 2010

I say Saint because nothing screams "SUK" like not having easily available replacement parts you can bum off other riders or buy at the local shop.

LOOnatic · May 11, 2010

I find Formula brakes kinda annoying 2 bleed compared to the shimanos.

yd35 · May 11, 2010

I have Formula The Ones, so my input will be based on real experience. I have never tried Saints, so any information on them is simply hearsay.

Ones are awesome! Granted, my previous DH brake experience was with Hayes Nines (mediocre brakes with little power and modulation) so I may have felt that anything was an upgrade, but the Formulas really are a quality product. They are light (lighter than the Saints) and they really have incredible stopping power. The modulation is also excellent as it's easy to either feather the brake or stop on a dime. To be balanced, there are some issues with the brakes - the pads wear out relatively quickly and the brakes feel a little "spongy" and don't bite with authority until you pull the levers a bit - but again, this is something i purposely leave because i like the modulation it provides. You can probably fix the pad problem by buying some sintered ones and the lever bite point is something that can be toyed with via an external adjuster.

As for the Saints, I hear they are really, ridiculously powerful. I can't imagine anything being more powerful than my Ones, but it sounds like the Saints might be just that. All in all, they sound like fine brakes. If I were you, I'd get the Ones if you're a weight weenie, otherwise, just buy the one that you can get cheapest.

Dogboy · May 11, 2010

Having owned both (gasp!), I heartily vote for the Saints for numerous reasons.

norbar · May 11, 2010

mandown said:
I'm buying a new set of brakes today to replace my Magura Louise. I need monster power, because I'm a chicken s#!t rider and I grab the brakes all the time. It is down to these. Which one and why?

I know bullcrew is already yelling for the Formula vote.

Have you considered waiting for the new magura marta fr? Also how do you like your Louise? Strong enough?

As for formula - they are the new hope - for some people they work, for others they don't. It's your risk.

norbar · May 11, 2010

Old Fr's were nice I remember though not even close to my old beloved gustav. If only they were lighter

time-bomb · May 11, 2010

mandown said:
Saints ordered. UniversalCycles.com says they will have a matching set of front and rear here by Thursday for $422 (would have been less if I didn't request the rush shipping - but I gotta have these for opening weekend at Whistler, right?!).

Nice grab. Did that include rotors and adapters or just the front and rear brakes?

Kanye West · May 11, 2010

SAINTS!! I've owned both, and worked on both. I'm currently on the Saints for a lot of good reasons.

Sandwich · May 11, 2010

mandown said:
Saints ordered. UniversalCycles.com says they will have a matching set of front and rear here by Thursday for $422 (would have been less if I didn't request the rush shipping - but I gotta have these for opening weekend at Whistler, right?!).

nice grab! i got mine from CRC for I don't know what, but I think it was more. I am super happy with them. They may be heavier or whatever but I think there are a few places on the bike where weight just does NOT matter as much as performance, this is one.

William42 · May 11, 2010

my experience riding the ones is pretty limited, they seemed like pretty good brakes though, wasn't a huge fan of the lever feel, but thats just preference. I didn't really have enough time on them (and most of all, they were reversed, so left hand rear right hand front) to get a fantastic feel for them. I was mostly just focused on which hand to brake with.

I have saints and they're so far and away the best brakes I've ever ridden/owned. Ridiculously strong and great modulation, and the lever feels really good too. Had a problem with the rear end howling on my session, but that was because of the brake/frame combo (brakes don't do it on other bikes, other brakes don't do it on the frame), but fixed that by running 1 metallic and one organic.

I haven't had to do any work on my saints, so no worries there, and pad life is impressively good given that I am running 1 metallic and one organic.

Kanye West · May 11, 2010

mandown said:
They have a few more left, and they are on sale for $225-ish for each set of lever/hose/caliper pre-bled. They also have a coupon for 15% off, so that made it easy to pull the trigger on the next-day ship. I'm almost certain the adapter is the same one I have for my rear Magura, but at $10 I got one just to be safe. The front should mount up since I'm on a 888 with universal mounts. I've already got rotors.

You were a factor in my choice. I know you ride good gear and I liked the way your Saints felt.

Good to hear. You'll be VERY happy with them. For once I'm not considering any other sets of brakes...at all.

time-bomb · May 11, 2010

Now that Mandown has made a commitment to a product I can hijack his thread and not feel guilty about it

I have narrowed my search down to either getting a new set of Hope Tech M4 brakes or Shimano Saints. Does anybody have any direct comparisons or e-pinions on them (mainly the Hopes since there is already good feedback on the Saints)? At the end of the day, I think I would be happy on either one given what I have heard about both so far so it may come down to price, but even there they seem pretty close for the whole package.

gemini2k · May 11, 2010

Hacktastic said:
Good to hear. You'll be VERY happy with them. For once I'm not considering any other sets of brakes...at all.

Having felt Hacktastics new saints, old saints, megas, my hope m4's, ones, and codes, and our other buddies k18's and 24's, I'd agree with him for the most part. Saint's would be the ultimate brake if they had slightly better ergonomics (srsly wtf is with that "servo" lever setup or whatever). The codes win there and the only reason I'm not jumping ship. But saints easily beat the formula offerings.

Edit for the above:
Hope's are nice brakes, I ran them for a year and half. If you can do the pressure bleed properly they feel great. I just always felt there was too much slop in the lever bushings. Only a small complaint though. But aren't they more expensive than the saints? Even at equal price I'd take the saints.

Big J · May 11, 2010

gemini2k said:
The codes win there and the only reason I'm not jumping ship.

Did you see the 2011 Codes? They look great.

J

-C- · May 11, 2010

I've got some Tech M4's and my good lady has the Saints on her bike. No question the Saints are more powerfull than the Hope's in this case.

Before the Hope's I had some Formula The One's which were junk, so the M4's felt awesome to me by comparison.

I didn't go for the Saints when I wanted some new brakes, because at the time, the only option for replacement pads were Shimano own brand, and they were rediculously expensive (equivalent for $60USD a set!!!!). Now it seems like there are some more sensibly priced options out there.

My only real gripes to the current Saints (as all Shimano brakes) is no spares. If you blow a seal, its new caliper time, and you can't get lever spares either. On the whole they are about as reliable as it gets, but it does grate that you can't rebuild the lever/caliper.

Not sure what I would buy out of the two given the choice currently, probably the Tech V2's as they are lighter than both options now. Price wise they are all around the same.

Hougham · May 11, 2010

-C- said:
Not sure what I would buy out of the two given the choice currently, probably the Tech V2's as they are lighter than both options now. Price wise they are all around the same.

I tend to agree. Both the other two are fine brakes but I would opt for the V2.

daisycutter · May 11, 2010

I have saints on my new dh bike and i like them alot. Good power and modulation though not as strong asmagura gustav's .

al-irl · May 11, 2010

I had the saints last year and loved them. Savage power and where pretty much fit and forget. This year i decided to go with the 2010 Ones just to try them out. It also helps i got a bit of a deal on them. Power wise they seem like way more power than the saints. They have better modulation and a nicer lever feel. So far they do everything the saints do in a lighter neater package and I prefare them. Im not a big fan of the lack of spares from shimano. I smashed a lever after hitting a tree and at the time Shimano UK didn't sell individual levers as replacements so I was stuck having to buy a pair which was pretty crap. I was so impressed by my The Ones that i picked up a set of RX for the trail bike as my 5 year old xts weren't cutting the mustard any more. I had Oro k24s before my saint as they came with my old bike and they were pretty awful so was pleasantly surprised by the current Formula offerings. Time will tell how they hold up long term

bullcrew · May 11, 2010

I just got home so I couldnt apparently scream Formulas in time.... LOL the 2010s are a bit better than the 2009 I dont like the no adjust but I do like the 2011 adjuster can be retrofitted.
So My vote goes to erase the cost you paid sell the saints for a profit and buy some formulas.... BTW Adam you need to call me when you buy stuff I dont care if I recomend it or not..... YOu know why foo.......

BTW I pipe up for stuff but theres alot of great stuff out there and I am not one to bag on a product and knock others.... Not my place things either work or dont.... Id be down to rock someone elses saints and give em a try but Ill be on Formujlas for a long time... Had GREAT success at my weight on some seriousley STUPID steep stuff and been A+ the whole time including bleeding them...

Congrats Adam and call me when you get something..... :thumb:

Huck Banzai · May 11, 2010

I have never ridden the One's, but they get amazing reviews consistently. That said, I do own the Saints and I am #260, and I am astounded at the power AND modulation. I came off Codes which were very powerful, but the upgrade is ridiculous.

I dont think you would go wrong with either, but based on my own experience and feedback like above (which is pretty consistent putting Saints above the One's) I say "You made the right choice!"

:

Huck Banzai · May 11, 2010

daisycutter said:
I have saints on my new dh bike and i like them alot. Good power and modulation though not as strong asmagura gustav's .

I challenge that claim BIG TIME; Gustavs are a tad more powerful than Code's in my experience, the Saints leave them both in the dust unquestionably.

daisycutter · May 11, 2010

Huck Banzai said:
I challenge that claim BIG TIME; Gustavs are a tad more powerful than Code's in my experience, the Saints leave them both in the dust unquestionably.

Challenge all you want I have both and though the saints are great brakes the Gustav's have more power and more weight, more brake rub and a bit less modulation. The caliper for a Gustav is one complete piece ie no flex. The Saint caliper is not and will have more flex. My guess is thats is the difference.

time-bomb · May 11, 2010

There is sum good info up in this here thread. Any of these brakes would be a nice upgrade for me and it sounds like I really couldn't go wrong w/any of them anyway. I am using Juicy 7s for DH and have been fine on them for the last two years. I am very easily reaching their limits now hence the need for the upgrade.

I know the least about the V2s though and am now intrigued by the comments. Are they really lighter than the M4? Don't they require a proprietary rotor that is thicker and therefore heavier? A big part of my interest in the Hopes is the levers they have. I used the M4s years ago when they were half calipers and loved the feel. I have to assume they have only improved over time. So, if the V2 feels like the M4 but w/more power then that is great. But if it requires hard to acquire spare parts (should I ever bend a rotor) then that would be a negative for them.

Uncle Cliffy · May 11, 2010

Mandown: Bring a bleed kit or make arrangements. Some of the factory bleeds aren't so good.

tuumbaq · May 11, 2010

Dogboy said:
Having owned both (gasp!), I heartily vote for the Saints for numerous reasons.

You tries both the Saint and the NEW version of The Ones which are said to have something like 20-30% more power than the previous generation?

Formula parts are kinda harder to find where I live, but brake pads are cheaper when you do find them ( 75 $ MSRP for the Saint aint exactly cheap !)

That said, arent the Formula twice if not 3 times more expensive than the Saint???My vote goes for Saint, havent tried neither ones but I hear great things about them all the time and Im sure both of them are better than my piece of junk Elixirs... ;-)

Kanye West · May 12, 2010

Uncle Cliffy said:
Mandown: Bring a bleed kit or make arrangements. Some of the factory bleeds aren't so good.

Additional nice feature:

Field bleed on Saints - tie up bike upright in the back of my truck, level out the lever, open top, dump in fluid, flick line/caliper and prime lever until bubbles stop appearing, close it off, continue riding!

Field bleed on Formulas - Hah! You become shuttle bitch the rest of the day, or in your case, spending the rest of the day at the bar near the base of the Gondy.

Sandwich · May 12, 2010

Hacktastic said:
Additional nice feature:

Field bleed on Saints - tie up bike upright in the back of my truck, level out the lever, open top, dump in fluid, flick line/caliper and prime lever until bubbles stop appearing, close it off, continue riding!

Field bleed on Formulas - Hah! You become shuttle bitch the rest of the day, or in your case, spending the rest of the day at the bar near the base of the Gondy.

mmm i moto bled my saints in the parking lot after foolishly cutting the line (the gold "barb" piece is an incredible bitch) by lifting the cover, adding fluid, closing it, holding it down, and pumping the lever to push fluid out, closing the bleed valve, open lever, open cover, add more fluid.

Same concept, but the saints need the lever closed. My hopes did not...oddly. I wanted to "unbleed" them by pushing the pads in, cutting the line, reattaching it and spreading them, but all the fluid drained out...oops.

as far as hope vs. saints, again, parts availability may be an issue, and the hopes, as i understood, were more for trail bikes unless you go moto/v2. Those levers and parts are gorgeous though. I did also always like the bleed procedure on hopes and I still think DOT fluid is a better way to go than mineral oil, simply because most people bleed yearly anyways and DOT is more available.

time-bomb · May 12, 2010

mandown said:
this will keep me from ever buying hope brakes (not for those with flimsy constitutions).

http://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/Hand-Brake,2993

yeah, this was floating around on RM too. honestly, that could happen with any lever though. the positive thing about that photo is that the Hope lever didn't bend at all!!! :thumb:

i always look for the positive in a negative

time-bomb · May 12, 2010

Sandwich said:
snip -

as far as hope vs. saints, again, parts availability may be an issue, and the hopes, as i understood, were more for trail bikes unless you go moto/v2. Those levers and parts are gorgeous though. I did also always like the bleed procedure on hopes and I still think DOT fluid is a better way to go than mineral oil, simply because most people bleed yearly anyways and DOT is more available.

hmmm, yeah, good points, maybe a better comparison would be the V2 vs. Saint. Parts accessibility is still a concern to me for the V2 however. Looks like they take a proprietary pad that isn't as common (vs Saint that can be found almost anywhere and you can us XT pads in the M4) and the rotors are also unique (i think) where as you can use any rotor on the Saint and M4 as long as you have the proper mounts. Can anyone confirm my assumptions?

Coming off of Juicy 7s, any of these options would be a good power upgrade for me. But, I suppose if I am going to do this, I better do it right the first time. Must do more research on the V2 :thumb:

Sandwich · May 12, 2010

I heard very good things on the v2 and they were my #1 choice before I settled on saints. Everyone declares superb power and good modulation with those, and as I've rarely or never cared about the weight of my brakes, I was cool with it...problem was they were super expensive, and having owned a set of hopes in the past, they felt great in the parking lot but terrible on the hill, and had spotty reliability at best. I once bled them with brake fluid from my GF's car when they sprouted a new leak. I eventually got them leak free, but then they started fading...those were early hopes though.

The moto v2 can use either a standard or vented rotor, from what I understand. I was planning on running the vented rotor for general riding and use standard rotors for race runs. I loved the adjustments on the lever, and the machining of the levers looked top notch...

but then I remembered trying to find spares for my DH04s, and I bought saints. I don't think I could be happier, maybe if the "throw" of the lever were slightly shorter, and if they had a split clamp vs. a single pinch. Maybe a fatter lever or at least some aftermarket options, but otherwise I love these things.

Huck Banzai · May 12, 2010

daisycutter said:
Challenge all you want I have both and though the saints are great brakes the Gustav's have more power and more weight, more brake rub and a bit less modulation. The caliper for a Gustav is one complete piece ie no flex. The Saint caliper is not and will have more flex. My guess is thats is the difference.

Oh, I've had Gustav's, still disagree! My Codes were only slightly less powerful, but modulated better. The Saints own them both.

That is just MHO, although much of what I see in reviews is in line with that asessment!

Brakes - Shimano Saint vs. Formula The One

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